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Wasn't sure if this is the proper forum but here goes,
I see bunches of Jnat hones on eBay for like $15,000 and more. (specifically nakayama hones).
What's up with this? Are they worth this much? Most other similar hones I see are 300-500 dollars-ish.
Dave
Asking price doesn't mean it will ever sell
Here is one fact to remember when buying a Japanese Natural, "Unless you are going to the mine yourself, you have to trust the seller, which means you are buying the seller's reputation not the stone"
Right now Straight Razors and Men's grooming are big business, and there are many many new sellers, that are all trying to establish a rep...
Keep in mind until you get the stone and push a few razors across it you won't know what you have regardless of the sellers rep..
I would NEVER buy a J-nat without a money back guarantee that it performs on straight razors... Value is determined by many different aspects of the stone, (size, pedigree, looks, performance) none of which means that it will hone razors :)
Just to expand on this point, let's assume that the seller is legit and the listing for that stone is accurate (i.e. it is what it is advertized as).Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
In the small world of Japanese hones, the majority of the people in Japan using them are fairly traditional people. If they weren't they would use shaptons.
Such people place a value on the dimensions and appearance on the stone. I've heard So use the word 'healthy' I think. A Healthy stone means it is rectangular, an even color without spots, and the dimensions have a certain ratio. For example, an even white nakayama of 8" by 3" by 1 inch might easily fetch 2500$ while the same stone would only fetch half that price or even a quarter if one of the corners was cut off.
The stone I have is a very high quality Nakayama. The only reason I could afford it is that the dimensions were 'wrong' and had a very uneven coloring. Still quite expensive, but I didn't break the bank. If that same stone had just been a bit bigger and slightly more even colored, the price would have more than doubled, and it would probably have gone to a togishi instead of becoming available for sale.
There ARE stones that have amazing honing properties. Japanese stones that are extremely fine, and extremely fast cutters. I have heard So talk about such stones. These stones will easily fetch over 20K, but you won't find them on ebay. These are very rare and are generally only ever sold between stone experts that know and trust each other. The chances of you finding such a stone on ebay are nil. If you find a 20K stone on ebay, one of the following is true:
1) The stone is big, even, and has a nice color
2) The price is a rip-off.
There is no way that that stone will have 20K worth of honing ability. Generally speaking, the first couple hundred dollars represent the honing properties of the stone. Say, until 500$ you are paying for what the stone can do. From 800 or so dollars onward you are paying for the desirability and collectibility.
You gotta ask yourself why is a $15000 + stone on eBay ?Quote:
Originally Posted by israfelli
Jnats are one of those items shrouded (deliberately, in my opinion) in mystery. According to those who claim to know, size, colour, inclusions, exclusions, purity, lack of purity, provenance (what mine and vein/strata/layer it comes from), speed, hardness, feel... all add value. For example, I've read elsewhere about renge (the red and or black dots you see a lot of in Suita stones) adding value to a rock, whereas in other circumstances the uniformity of the rock (ie the lack of something like renge) has been the purported selling point. It is a jungle of information (and sometimes misinformation) out there, and it often seems to contradict itself.
At the moment it seems by far the biggest value-add for Jnat sellers is the mine, and the Nakayama mine in particular seems to automatically double, if not more, the price of a stone.
Given the amount of general ignorance out there regarding Jnats, and given the very individual nature of each and every rock (which does often mean rules cannot be developed regarding what to look for) I think the only thing you can do is assess each rock on its merits, or get out there and do some hard yards in the research stakes, or both (research is hard because it appears that most of the formal information regarding Jnats is tightly controlled - most of what you find are what sellers "reckon").
Some things I would recommend you do or think about if you are considering buying a Jnat are:
1. Find a seller who offers complete, money back returns (within a reasonable time-frame. No one expects a seller to offer a complete return after a year, but given the nature of hones I would think within 3 months or so would be an acceptable time-limit for someone to fully assess a rock). I know some sellers who, if you are local-ish, will let you try before you buy, but this is a bigger ask and you should probably not expect that in general;
2. If it is a pricy stone because of where it comes from (eg Nakayama mine) insist on proof, in writing, that it is indeed from there. Stamps can be (and have been) forged, some stones come without stamps altogether (eg the seller has helpfully lapped it for you - "woops" no more identification stamps). Seriously, if they want thousands (or even hundreds) for a rock based even partly on provenance, there had better be solid proof of that provenance or else in my book it ain't from where they claim its from.
3. The things that make a Jnat expensive are not necessarily the same things that make it good as a razor hone. There are some awesome Jnat hones for razors available under even $300, or at least there use to be. Particularly if you are a first-timer with Jnats, find a seller who is more interested in matching you and your intended use to the hone rather than pushing a price. I am always wary if the first question is "how much do you have to spend?" rather than "what are you going to do with the stone?".
Of course, this is just advice. You are free to spend your money however you want.
James.
you are not going to get more from a 15k USD stone than from a 300 usd stone that is of good quality.
If you are new to honing, I'd suggest to forget about any natural stone that mentioned on the forum and focus on learning bevel setting and how to get good edge off 8k, then 12k stone. After you become consistent in your results you will be able to extract that extra that a natural stone can give you.
It's still a valid question as the characteristics you want of the stone may not be available in your budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. If your new to this, and just curious about these hones, You just got an education. Many of those high priced stones are for collectors. Higher price tags does not equal superior edges....
These old natural japanese stones are mined out, meaning, what's out there, is out there. Japanese stones are also the most counterfited stones on the market due to their high price, and how easy it is to fake a stamp. Unless your a Japanese Geologist, there's no way you'll know.
If your intereted in buying sharpening stones for a razor, Start simple, Start with the Synthetics, like the Norton 4k/8k or Naniwa 3k, or 5k and 8k, or even the Shapton stones.
Once you get a feel for honing, and can get comfortable shaves off an 8k, only then would I move onto naturals, especailly Japanese Naturals...They are probably the most complex sharpening stones on the market today.
Thanks for all the replies everyone, yes I was curious. But zib brings up a point. I bought a Dovo Half hollow pre sharpened by Lynn. I'm about 15 shaves (6 weeks or so) into it and have done nothing to the razor except (dry) strop the heck out of it before and after shaves on both the felt side and the smooth leather side of the modular strop. While I think it's too soon for me to be worrying about course grits and setting bevels, I wonder if maybe I should start to think about a stone just to keep the edge fresh. I was thinking of some options:Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
1. A shapton glass 16k?
2. A superstone 12k?
3. Just a norton 8k?
4. A Chinese12k?
5. A coticule?
6. Make my own balsa strop with Cro paste or diamond paste?
7. Use my rough leather strop with paste?
8. Some combination of the above.
Reading threads about each stone type, they all sound good.
I don't need the ultimate stone yet, just something to keep my edge sharp and to learn on. I'm surprised to hear that you can get comfortable shaves off a norton 8k, I guess in reading these forums I got the impression one needed to continue on finer synthetics or naturals after 8k for a great shave. Maybe you meant that the 8k would always be followed by paste?
I think only the Oohira & a few other mines are still operational. All the others are bulldozed shut, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
THere are a few shady high-volume eBay sellers (I won't mention the name, but I will say that if you see a Nakayama for $50 on eBay, watch out; there is no such thing as a cheap, quality razor Jnat) out there who will actually paint the skin on the back (1 way you can sometimes guess at the mine, although it really takes an expert to tell) to make it look like say, a Nakayama. Then they (I think) will lacquer over it so the paint doesn't rub off & call it a Nakayama when in fact it was scrap originally.
Something like 90% of stone quarried in the mines was rejected & left behind--these same shady types will pick over this stuff, grind it into the shape of a stone & call it Nakayama or Okudo or Oozuku or whatever & sell it cheap on eBay. Sometimes you get lucky & it works on razors, but a lot of the times, it's a paperweight.
One thing to watch is any name brand stone going for a very low price, like a full size Nakayama for $60 or an Okudo suita for the same; the latter starts @ $500 according to So Yamashita, for a quality piece. Good Nakayamas start @ probably around 300ish for a razor sized stone. You don't have to spend anywhere near 2500 for a really good finisher, but they will set you back a few hundred always, for a good stone.
There was a great post here about a year ago where someone detailed even more of what these shysters get up to & how to avoid them, but I can't find it, I'm afraid.
As far as trusted sellers, here are a few that I'm personally aware of, in no particular order:
*Alex @ the Japan Blade--member here based in Sonoma
*Maksim @ Japanese Natural Stones--also a member here based in Denmark
*So Yamashita @ Japan Tool--not a member here but many have bought from him & are very happy
*JimR--member here & runs the blog "Eastern Smooth". Recently translated "Honing Razors & Kamisori" into English.
All 4 sellers are trustworthy, sell good stones that are what they say they are & will never steer you wrong.
If you consider buying an expensive Japanese hone get one from a reputable vendor. Prices have skyrocketed the last couple of years. There's always people trying to make a quick buck. No 2 Nakayamas are the same. I got mine from So Yamashita and can only recommend him.
Once you reach a certain quality level none of us is going to see a performance difference. Maybe a master sword maker might but us no. Most of these stones you see for astronomical prices are collector grade stones and these folks would never dream of ever using the stone. They are more display and investment purposes.
From what I hear the CH12K's might be hit or miss, might be vendor related too. I am no pro, but my CH12K does good. You could also check out barber hones. I dont think mine does quite as good as the CH12K, but the size, speed and ease of use are pretty big bonuses. slap some lather & less than 10 passes and the edge is refreshed for a while. Again I am no honing pro, nor do I have a face that is conducive to properly testing these things out.Quote:
Originally Posted by israfelli
Absolutely ! Stones are collected & viewed the same as "art' swords especially by the Japanese. They are not for using.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Here's a $70 dollar ozuka asagi that I just picked up Ozuku Asagi (Koppa)
Other than the sites that PA23-250 recommends I'd add aframestokyo.com to the list. You don't have too spend to much. And you can get the small nagura stones to rub them on from JimR or from a site he recommends ?????????????????????????????. Keep the English simple and you'll spend half the $300.
Remember you get what you pay for.There is a reason why some stones are 100 bucks and some are 300 bucks for the same size,nd not counting fancy looks etc that ups the price unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Casus
Well it isn't a big stone. If it was a Nakayama I'm pretty sure it would fetch for $200 easy. Since the OP is a newbie, I would recommend a hard stone plus nagura and not go to crazy on names. I don't believe there is a reason why some stones are cheaper if it comes from a respectable site. Here is another stone Shoubudani type 100 under $100 that is great for sharpening razors. If you still believe that your still not getting a quality stone then we agree to disagree. I think its alot safer to buy a $100 or less stone from a dealer who knows there stuff then risk paying a similar price on ebay.
I wouldn't. Hard stone = Hard to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Casus
Best advice has already been given . Start with synthetics till the hands get educated.