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Found this while surfing the ebay. What do you guys think cause the staining? Can it still be restored to a nice shiny blade without damaging the gold leaf?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-BO...#ht_500wt_1155
p/s: Sorry, totally forgot the link earlier
Depends if your imagination is the same as mine ? No link ...... :shrug:
It's hard to say. The scale rot looks pretty bad. If it's a hollow grind then I think it's finished.
From those pics I wouldn't touch it. Shame, once upon a time it was a great blade.
Hard to tell from the picture. It could all be surface stuff and it might all come off easily. On the other hand it could be toast and the rust may be hiding pits. A real leap of faith to buy that one. Of course if the price is right it may be worth the chance.
I got nothing to add other than that was beautiful (and perhaps could be again...but it's hard to tell).
Sad, and a classic example of Razor Abuse and Neglect....
As to trying to save it, that would be a case for the "Dirty Harry Rule" ("Do you feel lucky?"....(with gun pointed towards your head))...
What do u guys think of the size? Seems like a fairly large blade...
From a restorist's POV:
it is a 7/8 most likely, might be an 8/8 but I don't think so
the gold is toast regardless
that IS cell rot in my professional opinion :p (I have seen it a few times hehehe)
the scales are toast
the blade may be able to be buffed "clean" again
it will never be perfect or even close there isn't enough steel it remove on that hollow grind to get below the pitting that is there (trust me it is there)
after a ton of work that edge still may be bad because of the pitting
I kinda know what I am doing with restorations, and have fixed a couple of razors here and there and IMHO that razor gets a wave :(
Now in the "can it shave" department the answer is "I couldn't say until I had it, and a hone in hand at the same time" :)
Stole the pic for later reference when the link is dead
Attachment 103746
What causes scale rot, and can anything be done with the scales or the blade once it starts?
Just to my untrained eye, those look like perfectly good scales, though I can see all the rust where the blade rests in between them. What causes them to go bad?
Personally I would not buy it.
As I am also a restorer, I have to agree with Gssixgun.
That Bartmann 504 blade is so thin grounded, that you don't have enough metal to remove to completely.
The goldwash is toast...
Cellrot has damaged this razor and I would not buy it.
Celluloid Rot is not fixable once it starts, the Celluliod begins to break down and off gas, but because there were so many different formulas for making it there are no hard and fast rules, about spotting it..Quote:
Originally Posted by maddafinga
I can only go by expierence and it tells me that what we see there is Cell Rot :(
Clues for everyones Knowledge:
Warpage
Color change
Actual break down of the fibers
Patterned corrosion on the blade that matches the scale pattern
Corrosion on the blade only where it is inbetween the scales from the off gassing
A sweet vinegar smell
None of these are true for all Celluliod scales but after you see it a few times you know it.. Sorta like when people ask about how to tell real Ivory, once you see real Ivory in your hands you will never ask again...
@gssixgun. I have heard that if you have a cellrot straight razor in your collection it can spread to your other razors? is this true?
I have heard yes and no some people say it is impossible, HOWEVER two facts tell me that it is possible and I believe those two facts more than the one "Mr. Science" that argued the point..Quote:
Originally Posted by bokerblade
I met a collector at the first razor meet I went to that told a story of how he himself lost near 1000 razors to Cellrot that crept from razor to razor in a closed area..
The Film Institute lost 1000's of old celluloid films to cellrot before they could be saved, it is my understanding that it crept from film to film in the vault...
Now with those two stories in my brain I really could careless what anyone else says I isolate the razors and toss the scales...
Ina addition to what Glen said, Nitric acid is the main culprit.
Some types of celluloid are more prone to breaking down than others. Just ONE razor with the scales going bad can ruin several others that may happen to be in close proximity. The problem isn't exclusive to "old" celluloid either. During the 70's and 80's there was a rash of bad celluloid coming from Germany. It was used on high end pocket knives as well as razors. I've seen "BUCK CREEK" pocket knives made in Solingen in the late 80's and early 90's that literally fell apart in my hand from cell rot.
Keep an eye on ALL of your celluloid scales. If it starts going South, Get the scales off the razor and out of the house.
Here's a picture of some of Case's old yellow pocket knife scales that went bad. This particular knife was made between 1965 and 1969. Funny thing about the handle material is that it did NOT eat steel. It did play HELL with the brass liners though.
http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...%20IXL/XX3.jpg
I popped them off the knife and left them to their own devices outside for a week and they looked like this.
http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...XL/HAZMAT2.jpg
Wullie, I consider your post to be not only informative, but instructional. Thanks!
So if you have a razor with cellrot on it and you take the scales off, will it stop are will it continue to eat at the razor?
Take them off, clean and then oil the razor and it will stop the process from getting worse...Quote:
Originally Posted by bokerblade
Not only YES, but HELL YES!!Quote:
Originally Posted by bokerblade
Stories such as Glen related are legion amongst those that collect pocket knives.
I looked at a box of razors a while back with the thought of buying. It didn't take long to decide that I wasn't interested in the box's contents because ONE set of scales had gone bad and every razor in the box was rusting. The owner of the box stated that it hadn't been opened in several years. Several of the razors were so bad that about all that remained was the spine and tang. It was a sad sight to behold. I didn't even make an offer just to get the scales either. I wanted nothing to do with that mess.
Wullie --
I hope you washed your hands afterwards!
The liners are what saved the steel. "sacrificial lambs" much like the zinc on marine vessels, the more "noble" metal took the hit! (least thats what I think)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wullie
my science is as rusty as a cell rotted blade. Or is that my brain is as rotted as a celluloid covered blade?
or somthin...
of course, they could also simply be stainless...
I perty sure rust does attack Zinc before any
other metal.
I have seen Stainless blades rust.
Sulie, that sure is the truth! (about rusting stainless)
But the stainless used in the pocket knife blades I have seen tends to be more resistant than the steel used in...say.. a Friodur straight razor.
Same reason cheap stainless kitchen knives dont hold an edge long. lower rusting tends toward equating to lower hardness
This thread has been very interesting and I can relate it to other "things".
When Glen mentioned that he could smell ammonia alarm bells went off with me.
The presence of ammonia is one of the "tells" for the breakdown of proteins (and related compounds)
We've all heard the "one bad apple can spoil the whole barrel" story...but there is a reason.
As fruit ripens is gives off Ethylene gas. The presence of ethylene will also cause fruit to either start to ripen or accelerate the process.
Some fruits give off more than their share, Kiwi's come to mind. Fruit wholesalers with park a pallet of Kiwi in an area with un-ripened apples for instance to get them ready for market. ( the fruit is keep in stasis by controlling temperature (low) and CO2 levels (high))
This is why when you go the grocery store you have those "island" displays with different produce groups. They don't play well together..
Don't get me started about bananas...
So...once one of the sets of scales "goes over the edge" and starts to off-gas (die) the presence in a confined area (on the same "island") could be accelerating the process for any scale material predisposed to breakdown. The off-gasing, mixing with moisture in the air and the lack of circulation (that would dilute the process) and you have created the slow-cooker of razor destruction with things you had lying around.
Not that I would want to be part of the experiment, but lowering the temp could keep the process from starting or slow it down, but once it starts the damage is coming sooner or later.
Thank you again for a very interesting thread.
I have bought razors in worse condition. For very, very cheap.
Both of the razors I got were, ultimately, fixable. But both also had a belly to the grind, meaning a slightly thicker area near the bevel. It's really hard to spot in a photo, and even difficult sometimes in person, and I doubt it's complete proof against bad cell rot. But on the two I got, both took a good shaving edge after an intense amount of work. And they're extremely ugly. There's few things sadder than a razor that was previously very ornamented that's now half-rotted.
Personally, I would not buy that. And I like lost-causes.
Here sometime i buy alot of the times really rusty.
I found one has to be very careful not to pay much.
when they are super rusty.
Cause sometimes you end up with a axe i can use
to chop fire wood. But the edge was so Rusty and pitted it will
always be like swiss chesse from really bad pitting.
I really don't like how people treat them as lawn decor.
They are a useable tool to chop wood.
Those two look like i be able to put a prefect edge on bought
of them.
Can wd 40 be use on razors.
that have a little rust.
Cause that stuff is awesome with
bidding with rust.
and the rust is littery dripping off the axes
i buy.
I may have a case....Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Bought this Crown & Sword pair that came in the mail today.
They look ok but:
The scales are slightly warped and appear to have "shrunk" - its a very tight fit.
This discoloratoin pattern is present, mostly behind the scales but its very light and seem to clean/buff with Autosol
No scent of vinegar.
Opinion?
Attachment 104076
The Bartman is something I wouldn't have purchased --- but ---what the heck -- I'd get after that blade with some sandpaper in progression and see what I could do. The gold-wash is a goner for sure, but you don't know about the blade itself until you've started to play. Kill the scales, they don't deserve to survive.
MJC's Crown and Swords -- depends on how they clean up with polish. Looks like something that could stand some buffing, something I have no skill at, other guys are artists with a buffer. The scales --maybe just keep an eye on them? But, if they're warped and shrinking already, probably not worth the risk.
[QUOTE=MJC;1009195]I may have a case....
Bought this Crown & Sword pair that came in the mail today.
They look ok but:
The scales are slightly warped and appear to have "shrunk" - its a very tight fit.
This discoloratoin pattern is present, mostly behind the scales but its very light and seem to clean/buff with Autosol
No scent of vinegar.
Opinion?
I have to agree with Stimpy, Clean and Watch, it doesn't look like corrosion from off gassing in the pic, but like I said above the insidious nature of Cellrot is it doesn't present the same because of all the different formulas...
Clean it up and put it in a baggy (no oil), check it every day for a week without opening the baggy and see what happens is my 2 cents
A couple of good questions and answers and this has turned into a fantastic and informative thread! Thanks gentlemen!
[QUOTE=gssixgun;1009229]Along with your and Stimpy's comments I had a light bulb moment when I was doing an errand. The reason that the end of the razor strikes on the wedge and jams in because the scales have begun to shrink. The light bulb moment was when I remembered the picture of Wullie's Case pocket knife, and the gaps at the bolsters.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC
Of the two razors the one with the tightest fit seems to have the worse spotting, which is not bad but under a 10x loupe you can see some scars (it had been cleaned by others?)
I believe that this is the start or early stages of Cellrot. Since they are going to have to be be re-scaled anyway I'm leaning towards removing the scales and putting them in a baggy. At this point the bevel looks good and there is no pitting near it.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you...
And thanks again for the thread and all of the great information, its been kind of a too-daa-doo-daa series for me. Imagine my surprise when I opened this box today...
This thread has brought out the hyperchondriac in me...
Time to ID all the celluloid scales and isolate em...
I thought it might be useful to make an update of the info I posted quite some time ago on the subject of cell rot, bringing everything together in one place:
Celluloid
Celluloid is of two main types - celluloid nitrate or celluloid acetate.
Celluloid was the first synthetic plastic produced in 1869. It was pre-dated by an earlier form of celluloid called Parkesine after its inventor, Alexander Parkes, in 1855. The inventor of what we know as 'celluloid'- John Wesley Hyatt - was looking for an ivory substitute, particularly for billiard balls. He found an ivory substitute consisting of cellulose nitrate and camphor in 1870, called the product Celluloid and marketed the balls in 1872, with disastrous results - the balls tended to explode when they collided!
A man who had worked alongside Alexander Parkes - Daniel Spill - had formed the Xylonite Company prior to Hyatts company and went to court in 1877 to challenge Hyatt. The judge found in Spills favour, but the case came up again in 1884 and the judge allowed both Parkes and Hyatt to manufacture celluloid (or as Spills continued to call it, Xylonite).
The reason for celluloids explosive nature is because its origins lie in the nitration of cotton. Nitrated cotton is another word for guncotton, formed by steeping cotton in a mixture of nitric and sulphuric acid. It looks like ordinary cotton, but burns quickly and readily, and if confined it explodes on ignition. It was used for blasting operations and producing ammunition.
Cellulose nitrate - aka nitrocellulose - was used by the Eastman Kodak company for motion picture film in 1889. Projection booths in cinemas had to be lined with asbestos (a double hazard for the poor projectionist!), but once the film caught alight it was very hard to put out - some types even continued burning underwater. Not surprisingly, there were a number of tragic fires in theatres, as well as movie warehouses.
To cut down the risk, safety film was introduced in 1948 - Cellulose acetate. This proved to be very unstable - when kept in warm, moist conditions the acetic acid (vinegar) is released, giving rise to the characteristic of this type of celluloid and also the name 'Vinegar Syndrome' for the degradation process that destroyed even more precious movie stock!
Each type of celluloid has certain additives, such as:
camphor (used to plasticise the celluloid, ie make it plastic, less brittle, also acted as an agglutinising agent and a mild preservative)
colouring agents - dyes, etc
stabilizer
anti-flammable agents
fillers - to give opacity - sometimes powdered asbestos was used.
Other things like solvents were used (ethyl alcohol, etc), but these are largely volatile and only traces may remain.
Each type has variants according to what was added to it, so it is hard to define any type exactly.
Celluloid Rot
Celluloid, like any plastic, will degrade over time. However, certain types of celluloid appear to be immune to celluloid rot. Lighter coloured celluloid degrades more than dark celluloid. The reason for this is probably that the darker, opaque types have a large amount of filler material in them and less actual celluloid, so the filler either delays or stops the process. You can often see a practical example of this in clear scales with mottling of other, darker colours: the blade under the scales is attacked where the clear areas are and virtually unaffected where the dark areas are - a good example of how little the 'creep' or 'spread' actually is with regard to metal.
The main aspect of celluloid rot apart from making the scales unusable is that it attacks the metal of the razor, leaving rust-like marks and pits from the acids that out-gas as it breaks down. Celluloid may contain 70 - 80% acid, which is quite a high ratio! Although not 'living' and incapable of spreading in the real sense of the word, if kept in close proximity to other razors, especially in a warm environment with little or no airflow, the acidic vapour will spread and attack both the metal of the other razors (to a very small degree - acid attack is fairly localised and you can generally see no effects past the edge of the scales on closed blades) and other celluloid scales that are prone to degradation - it will hasten the breakdown of the material. However, in the case of the celluloid scales that are immune, the vapour does not affect them. I have made numerous experiments to prove this.
However, it is best to be safe rather than sorry and immediately quarantine any suspected razors and preferably remove the blade from the scales. Not keeping razors in warm, moist environments, in direct sunlight in glass cases and airtight enclosures are good preventative measures.
Symptoms of celluloid rot include:
a smell of vinegar - this is the first sign that the celluloid is deteriorating
shrinkage - due to loss of acid - may be by as much as 10% shrinkage
if there are inlays, which will not shrink, then buckling may occur
splits,again attributable to shrinkage
deposits of salts (crystals) and beads of liquid - plasticiser migrating to the surface - an advanced sign of degradation.
Note the difference between the onset of celluloid rot and its advanced stage - the smells are different. The first produces the characteristic vinegar smell, the latter a smell of camphor (like mothballs, or some types of medicine).
Regards,
Neil
Glen's right here; they gas emitted from the break down is what causes the oxidation and pitting in the steel. So, from that you can pretty much conclude, that if there is steel close enough for the gases to settle on to it, it can be effected as well. I've seen the celluloid films, and yes, it's like the flu when it starts to spread. I had a set of top flight scales that still looked good, only needed some buffing, til' I noticed that musty vinegar smell; came on the forum and was advised by glen, neil, and mike to trash them...didn't look back.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I once bought a razor for $5 that had profound cel rot just to see if the blade could be made usable.
The answer was yes, but with a serious caveat. I was only able to hone to good metal because the grind (a very, very hollow 'Hamburg Ring') had a slight belly near the bevel. The majority of the blade is eaten completely through and produces a nasty, serrated edge.
It's my go-to razor for short trips that involve air-travel, because I really wouldn't care if it was stolen by airport security.
Not the first time I'd heard of this phenomena.Quote:
John Wesley Hyatt - was looking for an ivory substitute, particularly for billiard balls. He found an ivory substitute consisting of cellulose nitrate and camphor in 1870, called the product Celluloid and marketed the balls in 1872, with disastrous results - the balls tended to explode when they collided!
Remington used a version they called pyremite for pocket knife scales. Early versions of that stuff were also known to spontaneously ignite.
I bet that made for some interesting games. :dropjaw::rofl2:
