Doh! :gth:
Josh
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Doh! :gth:
Josh
mparker, the test as it is performed today never tests beard hair since we don't let it grow long enough, so what is your point? The idea is to develop a more reproducible, consistent and high-confidence test!
This is a great idea if it's useful, but I'm skeptical.
The relevance of the HHT is dependent on two semi-independent variables, the quality of individual head hair (or arm hair), and the quality of the beard hair. Reducing the variability in the hair test doesn't help much, since each individual still has to calibrate this standard test against the shave results on his own beard. But this is the same difficulty as calibrating his own head hair (or arm hair) against his own beard.
This standard HHT is also potentially less useful, since the minute variations in our own hair can be used to provide more fine-grained results. In my case I use the hair on my arm, and I can get a good gauge of how sharp the blade is by how far up my arm the blade will pop hair. But there aren't enough grades of fishing line in the range we need to provide that level of feedback. The fishing line provides a high confidence pass/fail test, but a test of what? Whether the blade can cut fishing line, which is great if our beards were all identical and that fishing line corresponded to a great shave of that beard. But that's a lot of "if's", and several of them are demonstrably false.
I don't want to be a nay-sayer here, and I think a standardised test is probably a good thing but...
I'm putting my statisticians hat on. Any scientifically derived standardised test requires a lot of experimentation, repetition, and control. In the current circumstance, I'd think you'd have to control for leader material (are there variations between batches, within the same manufacturer?); razor make, steel type; razor angle; method of placing leader on razor edge; hone type, manufacturer, material, grit (and batches thereof); air temperature, humidity. Then, if you want to develop the standard test off a stropped or pasted-stropped razor, you've got make of strop, material, thickness, number and quality of stroppings, hanging or paddle etc. Plus operator variations. And all possible interactions of these things. (plus anything else I've forgotten or overlooked).
Each of these needs to be an experimental condition with replication.
I mean, I know this is overkill, and I know no-one is suggesting this should hold up to rigorous scientific scrutiny and get published in a journal or whatever, but without this kind of rigour all you've got is an ad-hoc test, which is basically what we've already got with the HHT as it stands right now.
James.
I'm with Jimbo on this one. I think you ultimately get back to the question? "So does it shave well or what?"
Justin
Precisely jaegerhund, that's what testing is all about, namely, to develop a test which predicts real world performance. Use whatever razor you wish made from whatever steel and honed and stropped in whatever way the user prefers and correlate it with actual shaving quality. With all the variables that exist outside of the filament, the results become meaningless when the filament used is plagued with the wild variations that presently exist. Monofilament is a very consistant product with pound test and filament diameter controlled within very tight tolerances. So at last we would have a standard filament and we could test razors with all kinds of histories, see if they would shave this filament and then see if a positive test result correlates to a good shave! And if enough people try it and see a strong correlation then we have a standard filament to test with.
Sounds good to me -- I'll be waiting for the results.;) So, I guess in a testing like this you would eventually have to settle on some "composite" face/skin/beard to do the testing or would you break it down into subgroups. I guess my honest question is how to bridge the gap between empirical/reproducible steps and the ultimate subjective nature (or is it subjective) of a good shave. I think the major razor companies (cartridge razors) have spent 100s of millions of dollars on research and still end up with razors that don't preform well -especially for everyone. Just playing the devil's advocate here ---.
Justin
The points you guys are making about the usefulness of this test are valid. New shavers will still have to learn what a sharp edge feels to shave with, and how sharp an edge has to be for their particular beard.
So this fishing line idea doesn't solve the whole problem, but it's still extremely useful, I think. My hair works great for the HHT, but I have some hairs that are really thick and others that are really thin. Sometimes an edge will pass on one hair and not on another.
Remember, the hardest thing for new honers to learn is when to stop honing. I just picture the poor guy with wispy blond hair who's honing his fingers off, creating an edge and then overhoning it because it won't cut his silky locks...
This would give him a point where he could say, OK, it's cutting this fishing line, so let's shave test.
We'll never eliminate the learning curve, but a more standardized test would shorten it for a lot of guys.
Just my two cents,
Josh
Yep -- you always need the other side to keep everyone in check --but some more refined standard would be nice. What I don't understand is that I think I've read posts where people claim to have razors that will not pass the HHT on any hair but still get good shaves ---am I right here?
Justin
Yep. :gth
I haven't experienced that yet, but it seems that ultra sharp and ultra smooth blades can fail the HHT but still shave nicely. For me at this point, if the razor doesn't pass the HHT it feels like a crosscut saw on my face...
Josh
My wife and I both have very fine hair and the hairs won't pass a traditional HHT easily. I have to replicate shaving by passing the hair right near the tips of the fingers that hold it which I understand isn't the way I should do it but if I try the regular or traditional test, I'll never pass it
Yes. It's not unusual that my razors topple hairs great at 4k, less so at 8k, and have real trouble at 15k+. Several of my sharpest and best razors are like this, including the Feather, my Lynn-honed Wonderedge, and one each of my Sta-Sharps, Watervilles, and Mappin&Webbs. It's not universal; my Robert Williams razor pops hair like mad and it's probably my sharpest razor, and my other top razors pop hairs fine. But because of this inconsistency I don't really worry much about the hair tests above 8k, I just make sure my honing technique is solid, and get a definitive answer from the shave test.
Boy --I'm glad we picked such a simple way of shaving:). Which brings up one question. How much actual thought did the people of yesteryears give to this whole business. Maybe they were not striving for the ultimate shave --- maybe compared to walking and traveling by horseback and having to endure all types of hardship, any well honed razor was a pleasure by comparison. Should we be striving for the ultimately honed Zeus wielding razor or should we accept something a little short of this? It's all fun and good to strive for perfection but smell them roses fellas.
Justin
Yep, I think that's very true. Shave and get back to business. But since we live in a time with more free-time on our hands (maybe too much), we can pursue a more artistic form of the mundane routine. I've mentioned before that I'd like to keep it as simple as possible since I don't want to get into restoration, collecting, etc. I just want a good shave. The problem comes in getting a good shave consistently. Which comes back to regular honing, stropping, testing, shaving. Skills more common to the oldtimers than to us whippersnappers.
If you go back in the SOTD forum a month or so I posted a link to an article Mark Twain wrote about his local barber's shaves. Besides being terribly funny, it's also likely to contain more than a kernel of truth about the realities of straight shaving back in the day (otherwise it wouldn't have been funny to his contemporary readers).
Hey gang, I've looked through the last few posts and I think I'm guilty of :HJ a little so, I apologize and will do what I can to keep it back on the track of the HHT discussion
Of course this was aimed at me not you --just to clarify. But I'm sure it applies to all of us at sometime in our life.;)
Justin
P.S. From here on out it will be HHT discussions as well . But nothing is ever hurt by a good Mark Twain quote. But yes the HHT --now let's define "hair" shall we.
I applaud your efforts here gentlemen, but it really does sound to me like you're trying to reinvent the wheel. The Paper Towel Test is what barbers have used for years as a standardised test.
X
Here's a direct link to the Mark Twain SOTD article, from the August 1871 issue of "The Galaxy"
About Barbers
Wow, this thread moves fast!
I think Justin raises the ultimate point from my (and others, if I read correctly) perspective. Even if it were possible to conduct controlled trials of fishing line material on all pertinent combinations of external and internal factors, the variable of interest: "Does it shave well?" is vague and subjective. In order to get around that, you'd have to create a precise, measurable version of this variable, which necessarily means (in my experience anyway) averaging shaver's in some way. And the "average" shaver?: well, there's nothing average about any of us, I'd venture to say...;)
Even if you went with some more definitive proxy for what we really want to test, something like: "Is it sharp?", the link between that and "does it shave well?" would need to be investigated, and the problem raises it's head again.
Just some thoughts.
James.
PS Steve - time to lose the training wheels mate! In my opinion, you've attained jokemeister status!
I think that there is another way to progress, get a test protocol ironed out and then see if it correlates with a "good shave" in the minds of the concensus. My Feather and two razors honed by Lynn, but not my selected NOS razors, will strip Dai-Riki 4X monofilament tippet material (0.007 inch diameter) but not 5X. These three razors and my selected NOS razors will strip 3X monofilament. So there's a starting point, anyone interested get some 4X tippet monofilament and start stripping, boys! :roflmao And if a razor strips the 4X monofilament, rate the resulting shave and see what we come up with. We'll collect all the observations and see if the idea is of any value.
Maybe.... I've got a serious professional issue with meta-analyses based on observational studies, and the subjective nature of each shaver's rating is still a concern, but this aint a statistics forum, so...
If you do it this way, you'll need a *lot* of data. And you'll need to make sure either that the experimenters are as consistent with each other as possible or that they send you precise information as to what they did, what they used etc., and preferably both.
And the results of any analysis of these data, even if it's good data, will still only be "on average" with associated standard error. Useful for the new straight user...maybe ('maybe' because if you look at honing questions in newbies corner or wherever, they are universally person - specific, with usually person-specific solutions).
James.
Jimbo, all true if this were a simulation of neurosurgery or nuclear weaponry but it's just shaving, man! Where is all this data and hypothesis testing for the present HHT? Golly, we're just trying to improve the test by standardizing one element, the filament! I don't see where anyone proposed that this turn into an MIT dissertation. :hmmm:
He's Australian mate! If you've ever had the misfortune of playing sport against them you'll know they analyse everything to the nth degree and use their findings ruthlessly with a bloody big grin on their faces!
They also apply the methodology to 'sledging'. They hold the world championship for that too!
See also;
Cricket; England v Aus (Ashes series) 0-5
Rugby League; Great Britain V The Kangaroos (cringe...) Daren't repeat this woeful record in my beloved sport!
Soccer; England 0 - 5 Australia (even though I believe it's still regarded as a 'bit of a poofs game' - Jimbo?)
In fact every game we have every tried to beat them at! Just hearing 'Advance Australia Fair' reduces me to tears...
LOL! Well, there might be some smidgin of truth in that ... Glad to hear you're a league fan. But also, you guys just won the one day series over here, so...
Soccer's taken a bigger profile over here post world cup and our (very) moderate success in it - Just between you and me, I suspect Aussies consider anything they can't do well at a bit poofy (but I'm a cynic).
Anyway, rgdominguez you're right, I know it's no thesis we're talking about (although, if there's anyone out there interested in doing a PhD in this area ...;) ) and I think I said as much a few posts back. But I'm sorry, I know I harp on when these things come up (and I'm trying to improve, honest!) - so no more experimental design lectures from me...:w
However, I just don't think you'll gain much over the current HHT. I'd argue that any variability of any note that currently exists in the test is between individuals. The HHT is an individually calibrated test, and that calibration takes the form of mitigating variables like test material (hair).
But that's just my opinion.
James.
Man does this thread have legs!:)
It is nice to be reminded of the paper towel test. I had meant to give it a fair test but for some reason it had slipped my mind. But at my age thats to be expected!:)
The monofiliment test wil be simply be another test that each individual can utilize if it works for them. I seriously doubt that it can be a universal standard due to the variations in the edge profiles and steel used in our razors.
It will can only be, like all the other tests, an indicator of when a razor is ready for a shave test.
Randydance, that's exactly right, but newbies like me can have a bit more confidence since now we will be armed with the filament that the experts use and there would be no confusion about arm hair, head hair, wife hair or hair from unmentionable areas! :w We would be on equal footing with the shaving gods which reminds me, I need to get up the nerve to ask Lynn Abrams to send me a baggie of his hair for the HHT!! :roflmao
Please let me clarify my thinking. I like this idea! But we would all need to use the same filament, size and mfg, before we could even begin to standardize. What will most likely happen is that each of us will pick up some from a local store and go from there. Frankly, I think that this is a good start but we really need to find a synthetic "hair" that more closely approximates natural hair.
I really do not want to judge sharpness based upon how well an edge "strips" a filament. Frankly, I can strip my own hair now with my razors if I do it just right. So stripping does not appeal to me, I want to cut the "hair".
I think the effort is in the right direction but we need a better "hair" substitute.