test results - positive or negative

After having something of a setback in my daily shaves, I am trying different tests and want to describe what I've done and the results:

1. I went back to the 8k Norton and worked it until I was absolutely confident it passed the thumbnail test (easy) ---now:

2. Stropped until I felt it passed the thumbpad test by running pad across blade.
3. In preparation to shave, I stropped on linen and leather then performed these tests:


A. shaved hairs on my arms - used shaving motiong (tip leading) Result: cut very fine hair very easily

B. Different thumbpad test: ran pad parallel to edge with a rocking motion (lower left to upper right). This was VERY lightly with very short strokes. Result: the blade stuck into my thumb and wouldn't allow the completion of the rocking motion. Basically, the edge moved with my thumb once it "stuck" into the skin

C. HHT - took wife's very fine hair out of hair brush. Held it in 1/2 inch increments. Passed it by the stationary edge replicating a shaving motion (meaning - passed hair by blade at a diagonal motion approx 1/16 inch away from fingers that held the hair. I figured that was close to what the blade would do to my hair on my face) Result: Pop, Pop, Pop. Every time (could actually hear a subtle pop)

Well Doctors? is my edge positive for shave-ready or negative?

I know, the shave test is the ultimate and best, I'm onboard with this. I'm just trying to see if I'm getting to the point where I could try the shave test.

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Originally Posted by steve

After having something of a setback in my daily shaves, I am trying different tests and want to describe what I've done and the results:

1. I went back to the 8k Norton and worked it until I was absolutely confident it passed the thumbnail test (easy) ---now:

2. Stropped until I felt it passed the thumbpad test by running pad across blade.
3. In preparation to shave, I stropped on linen and leather then performed these tests:


A. shaved hairs on my arms - used shaving motiong (tip leading) Result: cut very fine hair very easily

B. Different thumbpad test: ran pad parallel to edge with a rocking motion (lower left to upper right). This was VERY lightly with very short strokes. Result: the blade stuck into my thumb and wouldn't allow the completion of the rocking motion. Basically, the edge moved with my thumb once it "stuck" into the skin

C. HHT - took wife's very fine hair out of hair brush. Held it in 1/2 inch increments. Passed it by the stationary edge replicating a shaving motion (meaning - passed hair by blade at a diagonal motion approx 1/16 inch away from fingers that held the hair. I figured that was close to what the blade would do to my hair on my face) Result: Pop, Pop, Pop. Every time (could actually hear a subtle pop)

Well Doctors? is my edge positive for shave-ready or negative?

I know, the shave test is the ultimate and best, I'm onboard with this. I'm just trying to see if I'm getting to the point where I could try the shave test.

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Steve, can you do like on Tom and Jerry and let the hair fall gently end first and split it down the middle --if not then start over. :nono:

Justin

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Steve, can you do like on Tom and Jerry and let the hair fall gently end first and split it down the middle --if not then start over. :nono:

Justin

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Never gonna happen. If I waited to that result, I'd have a full beard for years.

That sounds like it's time to shave test to me.

X

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Originally Posted by steve

Never gonna happen. If I waited to that result, I'd have a full beard for years.

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Seriuosly, I don't know how much more you can aim for --I mean what else can you do. It is kind of strange that we use dry hair to test a razor but spend effort to make sure our face stubble is totally soaked. :shrug:. Some people (in posts I've read) talk about seeing how the hair cuts. Whether it nicely separates or pops or jumps when cut can give clues but I don't know. And then some people can never pass the HHT but get good shaves. :thinking: .

Justin

Oh yea, past shave test ready. If it doesn't pass the shave test its probably because the edge lacks smoothing.

Let us know how it goes.

I have a few razors you can start honing for me btw. ...:)

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Seriuosly, I don't know how much more you can aim for --.
Justin

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Keep sharpening Steve, soon the edge will cut light into a rainbow, much like a prism...lol:w

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Originally Posted by custommartini

Keep sharpening Steve, soon the edge will cut light into a rainbow, much like a prism...lol:w

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Light into a rainbow?? - talk about amateur hour!;) I recently picked up a scanning tunneling microscope on the cheap. If I can't see my edge take slices off an electron, no way is that razor touching my face...:nono: :D

James.

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Originally Posted by custommartini

Keep sharpening Steve, soon the edge will cut light into a rainbow, much like a prism...lol:w

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right, I'll take a picture and it can be the cover of a Pink Floyd CD :)

I usually don't bother with all those danged tests. I shave my arm hairs and depending on the ease with which it shaves them I can tell if its time to try the razor on my face. I've never been wrong yet.

I normally don't either. I was just getting frustrated so I thought I'd check them all out. I'll try one every so often just to be curious but as a rule, I typically just rely on the thumbnail and thumbpad tests

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Oh yea, past shave test ready. If it doesn't pass the shave test its probably because the edge lacks smoothing.

Let us know how it goes.

I have a few razors you can start honing for me btw. ...:)

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Smoothing? Like on chromium oxide or diamond pastes?

Or on 8k for that matter. You need a bevel thats smooth for comfort.

After passing all these tests, the results were anticlimactic.

Shave wasn't comfortable, though little razor burn was felt, I have patches of stubble in my typical trouble spots and the blade felt like it would catch the hair, but not slice through it.

I did manage a reasonably comfortable and close shave on the upperlip and the underside of the chin is pretty close as well.

I think the bottom line is like AFDavis mentioned. I suspect it just needs a little smoothing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Oh yea, past shave test ready. If it doesn't pass the shave test its probably because the edge lacks smoothing.

Let us know how it goes.

I have a few razors you can start honing for me btw. ...:)

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Free honing by Steve!

Sweet:y

JK Steve :w

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Originally Posted by Bear

Free honing by Steve!

Sweet:y

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Alright... Settle down people...

The rumors of my honing ability have been greatly exagerated.

Send me nothing unless you want it ruined for life :eek:

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Originally Posted by Bear

JK Steve :w

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I figured that, Bear. :)

In a bizarre twist of non-intuitive processes the smoothing action will also increase the sharpness of the razor. Try 40 passes on 8k, 20 using some light pressure and 20 using only the wieght of the blade and see if that helps.

You can always send it to me if you want . . . but I think your getting close.

After that reconsider your stroke angle when shaving and your strokes quality on the hone and return to some 4K. Make sure its not overhoned ofcourse too.

Have fun!

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Originally Posted by steve

...

C. HHT - ...Result: Pop, Pop, Pop. Every time (could actually hear a subtle pop)

Well Doctors? is my edge positive for shave-ready or negative?

I know, the shave test is the ultimate and best, I'm onboard with this. I'm just trying to see if I'm getting to the point where I could try the shave test.

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Actually, Steve, on one of the earlier HHT threads, I described my results as similar to yours, and I was informed that the POP, POP, POP when the hairs were cut was indicative of a wire edge formed on an overhoned razor. If I recall correctly, I was informed that the hair should just fall over, and if it POPS, then ideally the razor should be backhoned one or two passes, then honed regularly one or two passes, and try the HHT again.

-whatever

-Lou

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

In a bizarre twist of non-intuitive processes the smoothing action will also increase the sharpness of the razor. Try 40 passes on 8k, 20 using some light pressure and 20 using only the wieght of the blade and see if that helps.

You can always send it to me if you want . . . but I think your getting close.

After that reconsider your stroke angle when shaving and your strokes quality on the hone and return to some 4K. Make sure its not overhoned ofcourse too.

Have fun!

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Alan:

Thanks for the suggestion. After I lap the hone, I will follow it.

As to the shaving stroke angle. I'm experimenting with, and seem to like, a short (2-3 inch) diagonal stroke with the tip leading. Is this not something I should persue? the angle I'm not sure of is the standard 30 degrees. It seems in many videos and pictures that I've seen of barbers shaving customers, that the blade is almost flat on the customers skin. This doesn't make since given that 30 degrees is almost univerally recommended.

Also, I'm a little lost on the last part here. "Return for some 4K" If I did the 40 passes on the 8K and it was sufficient, why return to the 4k?

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Originally Posted by scarface

Actually, Steve, on one of the earlier HHT threads, I described my results as similar to yours, and I was informed that the POP, POP, POP when the hairs were cut was indicative of a wire edge formed on an overhoned razor. If I recall correctly, I was informed that the hair should just fall over, and if it POPS, then ideally the razor should be backhoned one or two passes, then honed regularly one or two passes, and try the HHT again.

-whatever

-Lou

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Hmm :thinking:

Scarface, thanks for the information. I'm getting a little confused now, but that's only due to lack of experience I think

Only return to the 4K in the event you are unhappy with the single results of 8K alone.

A lower shaving angle is often recommend, especially for course beards. I use a low angle first pass and high angle second pass. Its your face.

As far as leading with the tip and scything those are often helpful. Just be careful not to over scyth, you'll cut yourself if your not careful. And also, never, ever begin a cutting stroke on a facial protrusion with a scything motion. Don't begin on your cheek bone or directly on your chin. These little tidbits are available in the barbers manuals.

I use a slight scything motion on my second pass. I learned not to mix scything with a facial protrusion . . . the hard way. :(

The razor should be sharp enough to shave effortlessly without a lot of scything action so don't over depend on the ability to cut via "slicing" motions. But it is a good stroke, used often with straights.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Only return to the 4K in the event you are unhappy with the single results of 8K alone.

A lower shaving angle is often recommend, especially for course beards. I use a low angle first pass and high angle second pass. Its your face.

As far as leading with the tip and scything those are often helpful. Just be careful not to over scyth, you'll cut yourself if your not careful. And also, never, ever begin a cutting stroke on a facial protrusion with a scything motion. Don't begin on your cheek bone or directly on your chin. These little tidbits are available in the barbers manuals.

I use a slight scything motion on my second pass. I learned not to mix scything with a facial protrusion . . . the hard way. :(

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Thanks Alan, I think we take a similiar approach to cutting strokes. I never start on a protrusion (like my chin) and on those, I use a flatter angle than on the neck and sides of my face.

As to the barber manuals, I have one from 1950 I use as a constant reference though it doesn't always answer my questions.

Thanks again!!

Steve,

There's more than one way to hone. Some guys use pyramids, alternating back and forth between the 4K and 8K all the way to the end.

Alan gets good results by getting the razor sharp on the 4K and then sticking with the 8K for the rest of the process.

With the pyramids you get a mix of scratches, big and small, that some guys find to work well.

Alan's edges are just smooooooth.

I've used both approaches, and I still haven't decided which I like better. :shrug:

Different members have different approaches, and you'll get conflicting advice at times. Try 'em all. :)

Josh

Well, I followed Alan's advice and did probably a few more than 40 strokes on the 8k before I felt that the thumbnail test was passable. then I stropped it for 50 strokes or so (sorry, I got mesmerized by the rasping sound and the drag feeling).

Could easily shave my arms (that test is no longer available to me, at least until more hair grows back)

Did the thumbpad test that honedright described in another thread and the edge kept biting into my thumbpad. Wednesday morning shave test.

If I'm learning properly, I should get a nice comfortable shave but we'll see. I have a suspicion that I'm "right there" if not completely shave-ready yet.

I lapped my 8k for good measure this time too. It wasn't too far off to begin with but I'll take any edge :rolleyes: I can get right now

I think I messed thing up.

I saw the link to the paper towel test and tried it with my razor. Nothing doing. So, I honed and honed and honed and tried the PPT again. I never could get it to pass and I can't tell now if my razor is sharp, overhoned, dull, ready for a little lateral action on my throat :confused: :confused:

I used my microscope to look at the edge and it really looks like I have one side with a nice, defined bevel and one side with a "what's a bevel" look to it.

I tested the razor using the thumbnail test so much tonight that I have no sensation left. I started using my fingernails to test and it felt OK so I stropped and the thumbpad test seems OK as well, I certainly get a sticky feeling as I try to perform the test.

One thing is for sure. I think I'm getting a little too complicated with things. Time to go back to barber basics: thumbnail, thumbpad and shave

I guess the morning's shave will tell.

Well, I just had to try something else. I went back to the strop and stropped for an addtional 50-60 passes. I went real slow and looked at what I was doing and sure enough, there is one spot where I tend to lift the tip of the edge off the leather. I adjusted my arm angle and the pressure I place on the shank using my thumb and that seemed to correct the issue. I have a 3" wide strop so I tried a few different motions. First the X-pattern, that's OK but I have trouble with it. Then I tried keeping the whole blade on the strop and using an angle (say 30 degrees approx.) each way. It ends up making a sort of arc in that at the start of the stroke, the blade is angled and at the end the blade is almost straight across the strop.

Anywho, after about 30 strokes, I looked at the edge with a microscope and noticed that the edge, while pretty straight, had some bright spots on the bevel. I encountered this before so I took some toilet paper and wiped the edge (carefully). Sure enough, the spots were no longer on the bevel. I think this is some microscopic skin that gets cut off during the thumbpad test.

About 30 more strokes and the edge was looking real nice. No chips, no dips, no strange things sticking off of it. It kind of compared to the picture in the library that showed what a properly stropped edge looked like. Not quite as nice as the picture, but real close.

Well, the thumbpad test was even better so I'm now excited for the test shave in the a.m.


If this worked and restored what I think I messed up trying to get it to pass the paper towel test, I will have learned a lesson. Namely hone, and if it will be a time between the honing and the test shave. Walk away from the razor until shave time.

Think I'll go to bed and saw some Z's.

Steve , are you hearing a uniform rasping sound through out the entire length of each stroke?

Justin

We really need to see a test shave and its results. It doesn't need to be your whole face. You have a lot of testing going on.

In order to simplify I would stop testing all the time. I'm not really sure you know what your looking for in all these tests.

If in fact you have a good bevel on one side and little bevel on the other you need to assess why your applying unequal pressure while honing. Change the stone orientation to prevent this if needed.

If it doesn't shave well this would be a big contributor.

You can set the bevel with the 4k and move to the 8K and smooth everything out on the bevel and get a great shave; without performing a single test. Use your microscope to get your bevel even and smooth and drop the thumbnail test all together. Use your 8K with for 40 passes as I suggested, 20 light pressure, 20 no pressure (even better is to lighten the pressure as you go). Do this and you can effectively eliminate the thumbpad test and the PPT all together and go right to shaving.

After the 8k use the strop to draw out and smooth the edge.

Almost half the battle of honing is knowing when to stop! The other half is learning a perfect stroke.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

We really need to see a test shave and its results. It doesn't need to be your whole face. You have a lot of testing going on.

In order to simplify I would stop testing all the time. I'm not really sure you know what your looking for in all these tests.

If in fact you have a good bevel on one side and little bevel on the other you need to assess why your applying unequal pressure while honing. Change the stone orientation to prevent this if needed.

If it doesn't shave well this would be a big contributor.

You can set the bevel with the 4k and move to the 8K and smooth everything out on the bevel and get a great shave; without performing a single test. Use your microscope to get your bevel even and smooth and drop the thumbnail test all together. Use your 8K with for 40 passes as I suggested, 20 light pressure, 20 no pressure (even better is to lighten the pressure as you go). Do this and you can effectively eliminate the thumbpad test and the PPT all together and go right to shaving.

After the 8k use the strop to draw out and smooth the edge.

Almost half the battle of honing is knowing when to stop! The other half is learning a perfect stroke.

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Well, I did get a good shave today. In fact, I almost got my chin completely smooth in just one pass and same goes for my upper lip (which almost never happens). No razor burn is evident either. Basically, I'm very happy with the results, it was one of the easiest and most enjoyable shaves to date.

As to stone position. I've tried honing with the stone in a N-S and a E-W position and seem to get better results with the N-S position. At least its easier for me to make smoother strokes.

As to the testing, I am stopping them all, at least for now and probably indefinitely, because I believe you are right and because I'm getting tired of having made this more complicated than nuclear science. I most certainly am either not calibrated to the proper feeling for the tests and/or am focused so much on them that I move to an almost over honed situation. At this point, I'm leaning on the former. Because I'm happy with the shave today, I'm simply going to drop everything else and get to the business of regular shaving and stropping. One thing for certain has happened: I've tried to learn too much too quickly and lost sight of the goal, which is enjoying the shaving experience.

Justin - yes a uniform rasping sound with a drawing feeling on each stroke back and forth is a regular occurrence for me now.

Excellent! Glad you got a good shave. Sorry if I came across as a little pissy. I think simplifying a little will help.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Excellent! Glad you got a good shave. Sorry if I came across as a little pissy. I think simplifying a little will help.

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Hey, no problem at all. Sometimes I think it helps to get a blunt dose of common sense thrown at you. That said, I did post that I'm suspending myself from SRP for a while (as soon as TGQ posts the sales items, I'm off). I had made a post on a different thread that I think it's necessary to get back to basics sometimes (hone, strop, shave) and I think you just basically reminded me of my own advice. So, I'm taking an SRP vacation to take care of other things and just let all this stuff settle. When I come back, I should be a little more common sensical(new word??) about things.