Help me not give this up. I can't hone.

So I've been straight razor shaving for about a year (but I only shave about once a week, and I haven't used my straight razor for several months, so I am still very much a beginner). I bought 2 razors off the classifieds here, both were shave ready.

The first razor that I started out on I could never get a good shave with, but I kept working with it for a few weeks. Each time I used it my skin was very irritated. I switched over to the second razor, and I started getting really close comfortable shaves. And each time I shaved I seemed to be getting better. Well, I was so satisfied with this razor and the straight razor experience that I went all in and bought hones (norton 220/1000, 4K/8K, 12K, and a flattening stones).

I've watched all the honing videos and read all the posts. I honed the first razor about 6 months ago, and at the time I had been using my second razor for a few months, so I figured I'd give it a good hone too! Well, now neither razor will shave. I have tried honing them about 4-5 times each. I've tried all the progressions. I tried a session where I did hundreds of strokes at each grit (took several hours). Both of my razors seem sharp enough, but they will not shave for crap. Each stroke brings tears to my eyes. I can't do a hanging hair test--it seems that even when I was shaving well with my sharp razor that I couldn't do this test successfully.

I was getting a great shave and having fun before I ruined my edge, and now I can't get it back. Straight razor shaving is not worth it if I can't maintain my edges. I am not excited to keep honing as I don't seem to be getting any better anyway. I have been shaving with my electric razor for several long months now. I swear I have watched every video on honing, but I just must be doing something wrong. I don't know anyone who could teach me and I don't know where to go from here except to give it up.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I have thought about buying a new razor (maybe mine are hard to hone), or just honing more (but that doesn't seem to be working). Another huge problem is that I don't know what a shave-ready edge feels like, and I've tried all the tests.

Thanks for listening to my rant. I hope someone out there can save straight razor shaving for me.

You said you received both razors shave ready, and then later state you "don't know what a shave-ready edge feels like":w.
If you add your location on your profile, someone near you may be able to give hands on advice.

Send me a razor and I'll hone it for you. All you have to do is pay the postage. Pm me.

I'll also give you my number and we can talk honing.

Michael

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Originally Posted by HarleyFXST

You said you received both razors shave ready, and then later state you "don't know what a shave-ready edge feels like":w.
If you add your location on your profile, someone near you may be able to give hands on advice.

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Yes, I'm not sure the one was ever very sharp, and the one that was sharp and that I was shaving well with, I never took the time to do the sharp tests on it (HHT, fingernail, thumb pad).

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Originally Posted by bphaedrus

Yes, I'm not sure the one was ever very sharp, and the one that was sharp and that I was shaving well with, I never took the time to do the sharp tests on it (HHT, fingernail, thumb pad).

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You had a good shave with it. That's the most important test.

Michael.

I understand how you feel. I have tried numerous times to get my edge back to adequate but end up with tugging terrible shaves everytime. I have to switch over to my safety razor every time. No idea what I'm doing wrong either. Hopefully someone can give you some help on the subject.

How good a shave were you getting after 10 shaves? I know mine were pretty ordinary. And from the little I know honing is harder than shaving. Stick at it, take up Michael's offer and see how you go.

Let me put this out there - keep in mind I'm a novice too.
I have new and vintage razors. For my new razors and the vintage ones with no smile and that sit perfectly flat on the hone, I can get those shaving like butter, even after I take the edge off and set the bevel again.
However there are a few vintage ones I have that either don't sit perfectly flat in the hone or have smiles, etc. Some I can get shavable (not superb), others I can't get at all.
Maybe your two you got off the classifieds are a little finicky? I'm finding a razor doesn't have to have much variability to it to throw me off, at this stage of learning anyway. JME

Did you Lap Your Hones Before You Started To Use Them?

Ah, honing. My favorite (sic) part.
Do you have a loupe? If not, get one.
I have been frustrated by honing also. Just tonight as a matter of fact.
Circles, x strokes, heel first, pyramid, toe first, yada yada.
I think the most important thing is equal strokes on both sides.
Whether that is one at a time, or 50, the key is equal time.
Second key is pyramiding. Once you leave a grit, go back to it.
3rdly, relax, have a beer.

First off , don't even think you can't. You just haven't figured it out yet. You can do it I just think you let frustration set in before you got the hang of it. You may have a warp or something you have to work around. If they got dull that fast you may need some help with the strop too. I have razors going on a year with only stropping to keep them in shape. If the Vids and reading aren't doing it you need face time with someone close to you. Or send them to Mjsorkin and he may be able to look at them and tell you what your missing. I suggest go back to square 1 and develop technique and learn that strop. You have plenty of time to learn the hones. And do that with a practice razor not one your using.

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Originally Posted by Jaife

I understand how you feel. I have tried numerous times to get my edge back to adequate but end up with tugging terrible shaves everytime. I have to switch over to my safety razor every time. No idea what I'm doing wrong either. Hopefully someone can give you some help on the subject.

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Can't speak for the OP, but you are very close to hands on help, we have had a Meet in Yakima every Spring for the last 4 years and have had a Meet in Spokane in the Fall for the past 5 if you get up to the North of Idaho just fire me a PM and I would be happy to sit down over coffee or a beer and take the time to show you exactly how to hone... Gerritt is in Yak, Roy is in Walla Walla and both of them hone and have taught others also..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Can't speak for the OP, but you are very close to hands on help, we have had a Meet in Yakima every Spring for the last 4 years and have had a Meet in Spokane in the Fall for the past 5 if you get up to the North of Idaho just fire me a PM and I would be happy to sit down over coffee or a beer and take the time to show you exactly how to hone... Gerritt is in Yak, Roy is in Walla Walla and both of them hone and have taught others also..

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Coffee, beer, honing lesson from Glen, is anything better? Anything better? Tell us it then (to quote Yeats)...

Jaife, This is almost an intelligence test: "Coffee, beer, honing lesson from Glen, is anything better? Anything better? Tell us it then (to quote Yeats)... " Test: can you spot the opportunity you'd be nuts to pass up?

Heck I'm trying to convince my wife to visit friends in Spokane just so I can attend a northwest meet!

Ok so I'm new too, I took up honing because I was fascinated by the process (counter to the advice to wait). I struggled, and screwed up some razors, and had some fantastically bad shaves. One thing I learned to do as I've been restoring eBay type razors (they are almost never unwarped) is to use a black sharpie along the edge of the razor, essentially colouring the bevel and then making two laps. At this point look at the bevel under a good light and see if the sharpie has been honed off the bevel on both sides of the blade through the entire length. If it has then you've made good contact across the length of the bevel. Pressure is another interesting function, when I set a bevel (once I've determined where the warps are with the marker) I use medium pressure. It's common to here "weight of the blade" a lot but if your cutting a new bevel you need to remove metal. I also "torgue" the edge into the hone (don't need to get crazy with pressure, no white knuckles needed). After the bevel is cut your polishing the bevel you just cut so the pressure can be eased. Keep at it you'll get it for sure. As for determining shave ready, it's not exactly the same thing, but a DE blade will give you an idea. Take a DE blade and do the tests with it (thumb pad, thumb nail) and you'll get an idea of what your looking for when honing. As for the hanging hair test, try it with a DE, does it pass? I've noticed differences with HHT results using different people's hair (my hair is thin, my wife's is thick, I get different results). May not be the most accurate test to use, just my two cents. Good luck and let us know how you're progressing.

if you did several hundred strokes with each progression and you weren't sure what you were doing, my guess is your razors are seriously screwed up now. Send it out to get straightened out. You got an offer, take it.

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Originally Posted by driftwood

I've noticed differences with HHT results using different people's hair (my hair is thin, my wife's is thick, I get different results).

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I'm glad you mentioned that. My arm hair is thin, and getting any results from HHTs is nigh-on impossible.

Fortunately though, I have a shaving brush that's "generously donating" its own hair... never did like that Culmak "Fifty fifty".

You got some good offers of help and you should take them. Feel free to stop reading now, because you REALLY ought to take these generous guys up on the help they want to give you. And they will tell you everything I could tell you, and more. But I will throw my two centavos in the hat anyway.

Now...

You bought a whole progression of stones. Any particular reason? You started out with two shave-ready razors or at least one shave-ready and one probably nearly so. All you needed was a finisher. In fact, you didn't even need that. All you really needed was a piece of balsa lapped nice and flat, and some diamond paste or else some red/green paste. (I prefer diamond, .5 and .1 micron grits) Did you really take a nearly shaving razor all the way back to 1k? What that did was magnify your otherwise minor newb honing mistakes. It is like they taught young Kwai Chang Caine at the Shaolin Temple... only use that force which is necessary, and no more. You really ought to download the whole "Kung Fu" series. It will make you a better shaver, better honer, and better person. Plus is is really cool to see a guy kick so much butt without even getting mad LOL! But you could have brought that edge back with just a few dozen light laps on the Naniwa 12k. Master Khan would have approved.

The stickies ought to be required reading. I hope you read LOTS of newbie honing threads before you ever touched blade to stone. But I guess you didn't. Well, we all do stuff like that. My Grandpa always said every man is entitled to make one screwup per day. But we still have to pay a price for it LOL! You did... you paid with frustration and a worse edge than when you started. Learn from that. Honing isn't hard as long as you do it right.

The sharpie advice is spot on the money. But also paint the spine, too. The sharpie test results on the spine are almost as important and almost as revealing as what you get on the edge.

A lot of guys lay the stone on a bench or table or counter and hold the razor with two hands. I was taught to NEVER do that unless I need to put a lot of pressure to do a serious steel removal like with a big edge repair or a serious spine mod. No, I hold the hone in my left hand, lightly and loosely, so it sort of floats. The razor and the stone align themselves. If you are mashing the razor down on the stone with both hands, you are forcing the blade into an alignment with the stone that might not be a very good one at all. Let the laws of physics do that for you. Try it, anyway, next time you hone something-- let that stone float and let that blade float right down onto it. What happens a lot is a newb will force more pressure on the toe than the heel, or vice verca, and only get an edge on part of the blade. Or stand the spine up off the stone. ERK! Or let the shoulder ride up on the stone, which is just like picking the heel up off the stone. A stone, BTW, that must be absolutely flat. Did you lap the stones before you use them? Practically all stones need lapping before the first use, and periodically afterwards. Unflat stone = sucky edge.

You NEED to read more honing threads. You OUGHT to also watch as many honing videos as you can find. You COULD get a pretty good DVD from Lynn the site founder. You SHOULDN'T try to hone again without doing some homework. Make that' "MUSTN'T" LOL!

You're gonna get this, don't worry. You got lots of guys here eager to share their knowledge with you. Keep going and listen to the Masters. And even other newbs like me who have done this enough to know better LOL!

You should contact a local mentor for help. I think it would radically change your honing and by extension, your shaving.

The bevel in not there. If the bevel was there your edges should be ok, not great, but good enough. Bevel setting for a beginner is hard but if you screw it up you will not have a good time. You purchased two used razors too. Who knows what those guys had to do to get the razors dialed in.

Good luck. I know it is frustrating. I still get frustrated but with every failure I do try to learn something.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

Jaife, This is almost an intelligence test: "Coffee, beer, honing lesson from Glen, is anything better? Anything better? Tell us it then (to quote Yeats)... " Test: can you spot the opportunity you'd be nuts to pass up?

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HINT, I sit here in little old Mt Torrens (population 200) MILES away from anyone who can even IDENTIFY a straight razor at 100 yards, let alone know what 'honing' is and feel very, very jealous.

At least have the coffee (and beer), maybe an Irish coffee and combine the two? Possibly a sandwich; pastrami on rye? Some peanuts? Take in a movie? Stop off for a Yiros afterwards...

Thanks for everyone's help. I swear I have watched the videos, and I am at least of workable intelligence. I'm taking these guys up on their generous offers, and I will try and figure it out! I want to get back to shaving with that nice edge.

Lots of words for a Monday morning. If your blade will shave hair off the back of your hand then...
... Just go for the Pasted Strop. A little green paste on a cotton webbed belt and 20 passes on it then 20 passes on leather ... And you have a shave.
Still not happy? 20 on a barbers hone then 20 paste; 20 leather.

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Originally Posted by Johnus

Lots of words for a Monday morning. If your blade will shave hair off the back of your hand then...
... Just go for the Pasted Strop. A little green paste on a cotton webbed belt and 20 passes on it then 20 passes on leather ... And you have a shave.
Still not happy? 20 on a barbers hone then 20 paste; 20 leather.

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I agree with Johnus. For someone that shaves 'Once a week' and has 'Two Razors' you really don't need the hones you purchased. Realistically, with proper stropping, a quality Barber Hone and a pasted strop, you should never need to touch a razor to a hone for a long, long time...assuming the edges were properly set to begin with. When one of your razors finally needs honing just send it out to be done correctly. Your wallet and your psyche will thank you!

Unless you are going to be buying quite a few more razors to practice on, you're never going to really learn to hone satisfactorily. It takes lots of practice and patience, dealing with many different variables from razor to razor, to become proficient. Even with the 'Best' personal one on one mentor-ship from a renowned honing 'Sifu', IMHO, you simply cannot become proficient honing only 2 razors maybe once a year each at most. You will never develop the 'muscle and memory' imprints without hours of practice on your own.

Now...if your intention is to subject yourself to the ravages of the highly contagious and debilitating disease known as 'RAD', then ignore my advice completely!

WP34

I just wanted to put an update here...

I asked Ben to let me take a look at one of his razors and give him some feedback on the honing, and then touch it up and return it.
The particular razor he sent has one of the most difficult edges I've ever honed. The steel tends to fall apart on the high grits, particularly synthetics. The steel hates diamonds or chrome-ox, and is one of the only razors I've ever seen that doesn't play nice with a Naniwa 12k.
I was able to put a good edge back on it and will be sending him a report of what works well for this particular razor.
To be honest, I'm not sure how long the edge will hold up - I have some concerns that it will wear out faster than a normal razor, so I'm going to send another razor back with this one, to make sure he's able to keep on shavin'.

To those newer at honing and getting frustrated: if you get to where you're beating your head against the wall, find a local mentor, PM one of the mentors here, or send the razor out for honing and ask for some help.
Sometimes it's technique that's the problem. Sometimes, the razor is just very challenging.

I am glad to hear there is some resolve for Ben.

And very gracious of you to take care of it the way you did, good looking out :tu

A tough case right off the bat is very discouraging, but at least he know knows it was not necessarily him or his technique.

I have had a few that caused me to want to pull my hair out.
Not all vintage either, one of my new Dovo blades has a slight geometry issue.
One of the vintage which I kept taking out and putting away as I could not get a 12k edge on it. (Razor Works 7/8)
I finally put it under higher magnification and the 12k Naniwa would start to deteriorate the edge after about 2 laps.
It is simply an 8k razor, finish with a few laps just the weight of the blade, stone barley damp, strop and go.
I have around 30 or so shaves on that edge now and it is holding well.
When it needs to hit the hones again I am going to see if a Coti edge would serve it better.
(A prime excuse to justify a bit of HAD... :D)

I guess I got the easy assignment!

I honed his other razor on Saturday night. Its a vintage solingen that was in pretty good shape. It quickly took a nice edge.

The test went great on Sunday and I mailed it Tuesday. Now I'm waiting to hear some feedback.

Bphaedrus, I'm really hoping you get a great shave. Let me know how it turns out.

Michael

We have a lot of really good people on SRP! Guy's, well done! :tu