Noob advice? Stubble 1 hour later.

When I shaved this morning I noticed something consistent between this 'I resharpened my razor' shave and the other shaves I've taken in this new world. I'm delightfully wonderfully smooth after I shave.

But as I drive work, my face becomes noticeably stubblier. And it's demonstrably time based. When I get in my car, I'm still pretty good. But by the time I get to the office, I can feel lots of stubble.

Clearly, this is user error. Is it more likely to be error in face prep? The shave? The (lack of) post shave treatment? All three? Where I should I go look first? Note that I don't have this issue with the cartridge razors, so I knows it's technique and not biology.

Do you shave against the grain? Makes a difference on the cheeks.

A bit more info would be helpful. Are the razors you are using freshly honed by a pro or have they all been touched up by yourself? How many passes did you do?

Bob

A great shave need a few things. A shave ready edge, good technique and proper prep. The prep can be under stellar and still deliver. The razor and technique have to be spot on. Stretching is big for a good shave. I cold shave and I believe it gives a closer shave, but I have no evidence scientific or otherwise other than my experience with it. And one other thing that is big is experience. You can only get it by doing it.

SS, yes I shave atg everywhere I can get the right angle.

Bob, this is my first razor. When it arrived it was "shave ready". Last night I rehoned it and, while it isn't as good as it was, it's 'good enough'. I noticed this issue from the very first shave onward.

Okay. I'll try cold shaving. I'm not really stretching--I haven't figured out the whole slippery face/fingers thing. I DID discover lathering on face this morning, and that was cool.

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

Bob, this is my first razor. When it arrived it was "shave ready". Last night I rehoned it and, while it isn't as good as it was, it's 'good enough'. I noticed this issue from the very first shave onward.

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Why would you hone a shave ready razor? I know...we all get excited '-)

Shave ready is vital, without that firm base, too many variables can enter the picture.

Stretching the skin is also very important, from stretching the skin above the side-burn area for the WTG pass to pulling the skin around the ear back for a XTG pass on the cheeks.

Shave ready blade, stretching, and good technique are all fundamentals...I cold shave, but started hot shaving, I think whichever method is a matter of personal choice, all require the fundamentals....good luck and be patient!

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Why would you hone a shave ready razor? I know...we all get excited '-)

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I had shaved with it 10 or 12 times. Being green, my stropping technique is not what it should be, and so the razor go to where it wouldn't cut. But, even with the first shave, this was an issue.

I've been working through the issues one thing at a time. First was to get comfortable enough to shave without throat-cutting paranoia (check). Second was how get a decent lather (check). Third was some guidance on trouble spots (check). Then came honing. I won't call that 'check', but the guys here helped me diagnose a bent spine. Me and my 140 gr Atoma stone got that worked out. Last night I got a hone that I won't call "check", but I will call it 'good enough for government work'. That will come over time. I haven't asked about 'how not to knick my strop' as the Wiki covers that and it's practice. So now I'm down on my list to this question.

Do cartridge razor geometries have the net effect of stretching the skin for you? I'm trying to figure why I don't get this w/mach 3 but do with a straight.

Also...how DO you stretch the skin with everything all soapy wet lathery? I'm concerned about losing my grip at exactly the wrong moment.

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

Bob, this is my first razor. When it arrived it was "shave ready". Last night I rehoned it and, while it isn't as good as it was, it's 'good enough'. I noticed this issue from the very first shave onward.

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Well, then it looks like a technique issue and you probably made the edge worse by honing it which does not help. Just not being able to shave close enough because of those 2 things.

Bob

Bob, the edge isn't as good as when I received it. It's better than it was on Friday!

Techqnique: face prep technique? Shave technique? Angle? Approach?

Whatcha thinking?

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

I had shaved with it 10 or 12 times. Being green, my stropping technique is not what it should be, and so the razor go to where it wouldn't cut. But, even with the first shave, this was an issue.

I've been working through the issues one thing at a time. First was to get comfortable enough to shave without throat-cutting paranoia (check). Second was how get a decent lather (check). Third was some guidance on trouble spots (check). Then came honing. I won't call that 'check', but the guys here helped me diagnose a bent spine. Me and my 140 gr Atoma stone got that worked out. Last night I got a hone that I won't call "check", but I will call it 'good enough for government work'. That will come over time. I haven't asked about 'how not to knick my strop' as the Wiki covers that and it's practice. So now I'm down on my list to this question.

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Sounds like you're doing fine...it's the journey not the destination as they say, and nicking the strop, been there, done that.

Re-read my earlier post about stretching, there are some vids and wiki's that will show you. Stretching is important.

After just over a year, I've gone back to re-learning stropping, I was lifting the blade off the strop after each pass, and as a result, when I visited my honemiester / mentor, I had rolled a couple of edges of my blades!!!

So now, slowly, carefully, I ensure I hold the blade properly, keeping the spine on the strop, and make sure, without lifting the blade, I properly roll the spine and come back towards me. I've been practicing now for a good solid three weeks with a practice blade, not going quickly, just moving the blade and rolling the spine.

That's my return to fundamentals for the month...I'm sure there will be something else next month...the fun is for me personally is the evolving learning and knowledge...

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

Bob, the edge isn't as good as when I received it. It's better than it was on Friday!

Techqnique: face prep technique? Shave technique? Angle? Approach?

Whatcha thinking?

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Sorry I should have said shaving technique that includes the angle of the blade, pressure on the blade etc. combined with a sub par edge maybe. Lather has to be great too if you consider that part of face prep. It takes a long time to have everything come together for an ideal shave.

Bob

140 atoma is like a wood chipper. That blade will need lots of scratch removal afterwards to shave comfortably. I took the 400 atoma to a junker blade and what a mess!

Ok. Lets see if we can get you some help. The blade should get some extensive work on a 1k stone to try and remove the deep scratches on the bevel from the 140 atoma. Then finish the progression. IMO circles works best for this YMMV. Then I would say for stretching. I would practice in front of a mirror on a dry face and see which way you pull that raises the whiskers the most. Then use a small hand towel to help you stretch if the skin is too slick. Ive heard of people using rubber fingers to help with this. Its very important IMO. Stretched skin doesnt get cut as easily and whatever raises the whiskers makes your shave easier. You can try wetting the face and applying hair conditioner as a preshave that softens whiskers. Then keep the lather slick and wet. Where it will slowly run down the neck. Make the lather in a bowl(any mug if you dont have one) and if need be add water to the lathered brush.

Thanks Bill: i got a closer one this morning. We'll see how she feels when I get to the office.

Have you figured out exactly what it was that gave you a closer shave this morning? If you make a number of changes all at the same time you might not be able to see where the deficiencies are.

I still think a large part has to do with the edge especially after what Bill had to say about the 140 atoma. I know the type of edge my DMT course (320) plate will leave and that is a saw edge compared to finishing on a Nani 12K stone. Did a little checking DMT vs. Atoma Diamond Plates For the Edge Pro – A Microscopic Comparison | Jende Industries Blog and apparently the atoma 140 is comparable to the DMT extra extra course (120) plate. That edge must be like trying to shave with a hack saw. If that is the case, no matter how good your prep, shaving technique and lather is a really close shave is not likely in the cards.

I would either hone it yourself on a proper progression of hones to at least the 8K level and even better the 12K level or send it out for a pro honing.

Bob

Bob et. al:

Results: much better shave this morning, and the stubble did not return on my way to work. I'm stubbly now, but then I'm typically stubbly by late morning. So, this is very good progress. Thank you!

What changed: 1. I only lathered where I was going to shave at the moment. 2. I dipped the tip of the brush into very hot water immediately before lathering, so each section of face was hot. 3. because I was lathering in patches, I could successfully stretch the skin by pulling on dry face with dry fingers 3. when going against the grain, I took special pains to keep the spine closer to the skin. 4. some areas got more than 2 passes. 5. rather than passing lather over the skin, I used the brush to scrub the shaving cream into the skin, and then used a lighter touch to lather from there. By the way: my badger is shedding!

Let's talk about honing: I failed to communicate, so I want to be super crystalline clear here. The person who sold me this razor did a phenomonal job of getting it shave ready. But I don't know how he did it because the spine was very subtley bent. I've worked on edge tools enough to know that you cannot straighten out a bend in hardened steel. It has to be ground out. I've also been around the edge-tool block to know if you're going to grind, used the coarsest you can find. If a guy comes to your door selling 8 grit sandpaper, buy it. I've also been around the block enough to know that 'learning' and 'adjusting' ones technique to accomodate a bend, bump, blister, belly in a tool that should be flat and/or straight is a fool's errand: fix it!!

So you guys don't think I'm an idiot here is what I did.

1. coated the spine and edge with machinists Prussian Blue.
2. Used the 140 grit atoma to grind the bevel and spine (flat to the stone) until there was at least 1 mm of 'flat' on the parts of the spine bent farthest from the stone. So one side, this 1mm band is in the middle, on the other, it appears at each end. Of course, the other areas of the spine have a much wider 'flat'. The dye-chem indicated when 'straightening and spine and setting the bevel' were 'done'.
3. From Atoma to "blue" dmt
4. From blue dmt to red dmt
5. From red dmt to green dmt
6. Retreat with Prussian blue
7. Take a few gentle strokes on a natural aoto to be sure that 3-5 did not release internal stresses in the steel that would cause it to 'spring' every so slightly of straight. This frequently happens when flat grinding hardened edge tools having cross sections greater than 1/8".
8. After confirmation, serious 'getting after it' on the aoto.
9. After Aoto, a botan slurry on a nakayama stone
10. Aftr botan slurry, a mejiro slurry on the nakayama
11. After mejiro slurry, a heavy "tomonagura' slurry on the nakayama. This was worked until the stone was almost dry.
12. From the pure slurry to clear water on nakayama, worked until is was almost dry.
13. from clear water on nakayama to polyester strop
14. from polyester strop to leather strop.
15. From leather strop to a big glass of Meritage and a good book (Whiteheads "Science and the Modern World")

Hopefully we are all now on the same page around the idea that I've spent enough time on the site wiki to not try to shave directly after sharpening my pocket knife on the sidewalk! :-)

By the way, I'm going to do steps 12, 13, 14, and 15 every night for while in order to accelerate my learning curve on how to consistently get a shave ready edge. I'll do this as a training exercise, not from the belief that it is necessary for a good shave.

jgjgjg

To me it sounds like your changes to your shaving technique improved the shave not the razor if you did not hone it in between shaves.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of how you honed the razor. I was under the mistaken impression that you used the atoma 140 to touch it up. Call me a fool, I just adjust my honing stroke to take into account any bend or warp in the razor. Each to their own in that regard. When all is said and done it is still a possibility that the edge is not good enough yet. That is unless your stubble grows incredibly fast.

I know when I have my edge sharp enough when I still have a DFS 8 hours after a BBS shave. If I do not have a good enough edge I get a stubbly feeling after about 2 hours. That is why I still think your edge may not be quite there yet.

Bob

Sorry, almost forgot to mention that another possibility is that with all the work you are doing constantly honing the blade you may be killing the edge by over honing it.

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

When I shaved this morning I noticed something consistent between this 'I resharpened my razor' shave and the other shaves I've taken in this new world. I'm delightfully wonderfully smooth after I shave.

But as I drive work, my face becomes noticeably stubblier. And it's demonstrably time based. When I get in my car, I'm still pretty good. But by the time I get to the office, I can feel lots of stubble.

Clearly, this is user error. Is it more likely to be error in face prep? The shave? The (lack of) post shave treatment? All three? Where I should I go look first? Note that I don't have this issue with the cartridge razors, so I knows it's technique and not biology.

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This phenomenon was first identified by the Dutch. It's called "faceshrinkiehairstiffen". Best described as inflammation caused by a bad shave, which upon resolving exposes the uncut stubble.

Sadly the cause is usually impossible to determine, and subject often experience denial.

Michael

Another reason to cold shave as cold makes the skin shrink. Hot water would cause the skin to swell. No science but it works for me. From the first cold shave.

I agree with Bob. Its easier to adjust your stroke than to grind it flat. You can certainly do that, but a surprising amount of razors new and old are not flat, but warped, short at the toe, heel etc. Glad to see the technique is improving as the results were better. All these will improve with experience and take some time to master, but you will master these if you keep going. Keep us informed as Im very glad to hear of the
progress. Lynns dvd is recommended as it covers it all. Worth the $20 IMO.

Just a quick addition here since no one seemed to answer the stretching with cartridge razor question. The better cartridge razors do indeed accomplish some of the stretching for you. They have that little rubber strip that grips and pulls the skin on your face to stretch it a bit...it doesn't take much to help. Also the multi blade cartridges tend to do this even more as they dull, since the first blade will grab and tug, then the next sharper blade will do the cutting.

So you DO need to make sure you are stretching the skin if you want the closest shave!

I have the same problem as the original poster. If I am up and moving for an hour or two before the shave, I get a nice 24 hour shave. If I shave upon awakening I have stubble an hour later, stretched skin or not. Most safety razor bars/combs do stretch the skin just ahead of the cutting edge.
So my opinion is that my facial skin is swollen / fluid bearing until circulation redistributes the fluid. The cold water shave mentioned above is a good idea...but...I started Str8 shaving to enjoy the process!
Anyhow a good scientific wild a** guess! YMMV
~Richard