I just can't get the razor sharp!

Well I just started getting into razor shaving right after christmas, I was getting great, close shaves and loved it. I bought a 4k / 8k norton, I have two dovo razors, a beautiful strop from tony, great brushes. Everything was great but I realized my razor would need sharpening. I also knew I had much to learn, seeing as no one I know personally shaves with straight razors (anymore) so anything I want to learn comes from you guys. Well I just got off for spring break and this semester rocked me, there I never had the time to fully watch the DVD for straight razor shaving, and I was dumb enough not to bring it with me home for spring break. I just lapped my stone and tried honing and my razor would NOT get sharp. I did 5 times on the 4k, 5 8k, 3-3, 1-5. It seemed almost as if it got even more dull. When I shaved it felt like I was shaving with a cactus. Surprisingly my skin didn't get terribly red but the shave wasn't close. What can I be doing wrong? Any tips for beginners for sharpening? Thanks.rrr

Hmm, are you just using the 4k/8k wet stone? It is possible to get a shave ready edge off of just this, but it is very very hard to do. Just about everybody uses a higher grit polishing stone after the 4/8k, such as a Belgian yellow coticule stone, or a barbers hone. These have higher grits in the 12k range. This helps to refine the edge even further, making it very very fine. I am currently using a pasted paddle that I got from Tony Miller for polishing after the 4/8k Norton. If you are just using the 4/8k stone, then this is probably one of your problems.

Another thing is that you are still developing technique. Honing is not something that you will get the first try. In fact, honing is probably the hardest aspect of straight razor shaving to master. I only recently started honing (this Friday actually), and I didn't get my razor back to shave sharpness within one pyramid. Actually, just like you, I found that my razor felt duller after my first pyramid. I think part of this is that the 4k/8k grits take off the fine edge that was developed by the prior honing. Essentially, they are reestablishing the bevel. Also, my inexperience could not have been helping much either.

One pyramid is ideal and what we shoot for, but when you're first starting out I wouldn't expect to achieve it quickly. I had to go back to the Norton two more times and then I had to spend more time polishing on my paddle before I got it back to a good shaving edge. It could still be sharper, I am sure, but it shaves close and comfortably, and for now I am happy with that.

Patience is the edge in winning this battle. Take your time. Watch the video a few times (when you get back to school). Make sure you are mimicking everything you see as closely as possible. One big tip that helped me was from Chris (C utz). He said to watch the water on the hone as the razor was being pushed along. If the water is be pushed evenly along the length of the edge of the blade, then you know your staying flat. There are plenty of tips and tricks you can pick up in the honing section. You just have to go searching for them.

Another thing that really helped me was learning how each of the different tests should be used. I have found that the thumb pad test is the way for me to tell how sharp my edge is getting. I have super fine hair, and so my blade has to be super sharp before it will catch the hair with the hanging hair test. Still, I am happy to say that I got it passing now.

It takes a great deal of time (years) to master honing. A lot of it is trial and error. Almost everybody has a different procedure to. No honemeister hones alike. They all have developed their method based on their own experiences. You will just have to take the time to find yours.

I am sure that some of the more experienced guys will be along shortly to help more. Don't give up on it. Good Luck.

Matt

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Originally Posted by keykenny

When I shaved it felt like I was shaving with a cactus.

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This is a sign of overhoning, especially if you can feel it for a few hours after the shave. I suspect you're using too much pressure on the 8k side of the hone. you might want to go at it with a lighter touch.

Then again, ending with just one 1/5 coupling might be leaving the edge underhoned too.

3/3, 5/5, 3/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 is one of my favorite sequences.
If I do a larger pyramid I usually add a 10/5, 5/5 after the first 5/5 and change the first 1/3 to a 1/5.
Building each edge is a unique experience.

X.

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Originally Posted by xman

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Building each edge is a unique experience.

X.

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Definitely.

Unfortunately I've got no specific advice, but I remember what helped me when I first started honing was not being afraid to take it really slow. Couple of laps, check the edge. Couple more, check again. One of the easier checks as you go is to waft your razor slowly through your arm hairs a few mil.s above the skin to see if they get cut. Move the blade slowly and lightly over the hone and watch the water make a little wave in front of the edge to make sure the edge is being evenly honed. Oh, and using two hands can help with control too. Visualisation helps too. I used to like to visualise silk being gently wafted over - ahem - well let's say an arm or something. :o I found that helped with light touch...

If you do go slow and light on the hone, be prepared to be patient (depending on how much work needs to be done, of course).

James.

Ok, lets get down to simple ideas here. This is starting to drive me crazy! Crazy I tell you. Let me tell you a story.

I once bought an Ebay razor. It needed a lot of honing so I did 3/5, 3/5, 1/5, 1/5; Yea thats what I did. Then I bought a new razor because I lost my pyramid and I couldn't hone like that anymore. Luckily on a new razor the bevel is already nearly perfect. All they do is leave the customer to figure out what kind of stone he uses for updates and polish the blade. Isn't that nice of them? Anyway I used my 8K stone to polish up the blade with 30 or so passes, then stropped and bango! Nice shaving edge.

So then I had my two razors and each of them were both shaving nicely but needed a little updating and I said "I'll take you to the 4K and teach you both a lesson" and they said "Noooooo! Mr. Alan, don't take us to the 4k, our bevels are nice and smooooth, we just need an update!". So since my razors feel enough for me to talk to me I decided to go really easy on them . . . just a few passes on 8K, nice and smooth and slow, with ultra light pressure. Sets of 6 I used. I tried once, then twice. One blade reacted quickly and the other took three sets. Then I remembered, one was carbon and one was stainless.

They both shaved soooo nice, and they thanked me. They said, your such a nicer owner than the last guy we served. We would be shaving soooo nicely and then blam, he would try and reset our entire bevel with a 4K stone, "and we hadn't even cut him in the last couple of months!"

I said, "I'm sooooo sorry, thats no way to treat you guys".

Then I went out and beat the cat, cuz I guess I've got to get my frustrations out somewhere.

But we all, except the cat, lived happily ever after.

I love happy endings... :w
Alan, I think you are 100% correct. What we hear is pyramid, pyramid, pyramid. This is what I did and it dulled more than few razors. IMO, the 4K side seems to be best suited for restoring an e-bay special and never used for touching up a current shaver. Once you start down that path its a long way back.

Just my $.02

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Originally Posted by Iceman

I love happy endings... :w
Alan, I think you are 100% correct. What we hear is pyramid, pyramid, pyramid. This is what I did and it dulled more than few razors. IMO, the 4K side seems to be best suited for restoring an e-bay special and never used for touching up a current shaver. Once you start down that path its a long way back.

Just my $.02

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I usually try 'least damage first' methods. Even if I work on a dull razors with oxidized bevels, I start on the 4K and only go to 1K if I see that there is not enough progress.

For just touching up I use the yellow coticule because it doesn't do any damage.

:OT But the 8K that I had problems with earlier is now coming around nicely.
I have lapped it on my 1K norton several times, and it is now very smooth. Only occasinally I feel the slightest tug.
This is totally unfounded, but I suspect that the mould was a bit dusty when they poured it, or something like that.

As has been said more times than I can count, the pyramid is the most consistent method to get new people the ability to start honing their own razors. Debate it all you want, but the advice remains the same. It has been said about the Norton 4K/8K stone as being the most consistent for new folks to learn on. This has also been debated by the Barber Hone lovers and the rest of the planet and yet that advice alsor remains consistent. The overwhelming amount of problems seen has had to do with the honer's technique. As has also been stated, there are many different ways to hone a razor and each has it's own personality which means a lot of practice is warranted. What I find is that a new guy will stay on one razor until it's worn to a nub. Honing is a delicate art for the most part and you should not need more than 15 minutes to a half an hour at one sitting unless undertaking a restoration.

I've probably honed a few more razors than you guys and am still searching for the perfect pattern that will hone every razor perfectly every time myself.

If you guys find it, let me know.

Have fun.

Lynn

So in conclusion, go and watch Lynn's DVD and mimic mimic mimic. From one newby to another, this is the best way to go. Watching the DVD and seeing how Lynn does it really answered a lot of questions for me.

If you're worried you are going to ruin your razor, then get a practice razor and take it to the hone, something that you wont care if you mess up. Good Luck!

Matt

Alright thanks for all the feedback guys. Am I underestemating the technique and position? How much can a pass that is "uneven" (one side is further than the other, or one side is not fully on the stone) off-set the sharpness?r

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Originally Posted by keykenny

Alright thanks for all the feedback guys. Am I underestemating the technique and position? How much can a pass that is "uneven" (one side is further than the other, or one side is not fully on the stone) off-set the sharpness?r

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I'm not sure about offsetting sharpness, it's more about making sure all parts of the edge get a consistent go on the hone so that there's not one area duller than another. Assuming, of course, that the razor is flat on the hone. One of the things that reassured me when I started was that the spine creates the right angle for the edge, so that simply lying the razor on the hone is all you need to worry about in that regard.

It's the moving the razor smoothly and evenly and lightly while keeping both the edge and the spine in contact with the hone that can get tricky.

Also, a lot of guys use an X pattern (see randydance's avatar, or pictures in the library of this site). I do, mainly because my blades are wider than the hone, but the cutting angle on an X pattern seems to work too. This can also be a bit tricky initially because the tip and the heel take turns at not being on the hone, whereas the middle part of the blade pretty much is always in contact. But it's not as major an issue as you might think, so long as you concentrate on keeping the blade flat on the hone at all times. Using two hands, one at the heel and one at the tip, can help here - just be careful if you do use two hands to be aware of the potential extra pressure you might be imparting.

James.

Yea, I´d have to agree with Lynn on this one. He´s probably honed a few thousand razors more than most of us and if he hasn´t found the perfect pattern yet then there´s a good chance that none of us will either.

Get yourself a 9 dollar microscope from radio shack and look at the edge too. You may be surprised at what you see under the 100x lens.

Glen F

I am reading this thread and I keep hearing about Belgain or yellow coticule. Are these the same? Where do you get them? I have a Norton 4000/8000 and a strop, however I do not have a pasted strop nor do I have the above mentiond stones. Do I need a 1200 stone? Hope you guys can help. I am in the same dilemma as our friend who started this thread.

Thanks
Al in Cal:shrug:

Hi Al,

I only use a 4/8K Norton and get nice shaves. That's not to say I mightn't get better shaves using a 12k, just that for me the 8k (and stropping, of course) is enough.

James.

I have found success with a pasted paddle strop in addition to my norton. I find that it is easier to do fine tuning with the pasted paddle after you get it decently sharp on the norton. I get it to the point that it will shave arm hair on the norton, and then take it to my pasted paddle for fine tuning. If I some how develop a wire edge on the paddle, then I go back to the Norton for a small pyramid of 3/3 1/3 1/5 and this seems to do the trick. I then go back to the paddle but do less passes.

I have found that moving from the 1 micron side to the .5 diamond and then to the .5 chromium works very well for me as far as fine polishing. I have only honed two razor so far, but the difference in hardness was quite noticeable, and so I had to adjust the number of passes to compensate. Experience proves to be the best instructor as usual.

Matt

Dang it Lynn,

I went up and did a couple of 4K/8K iterations and sure enough I got a razor shaving like a dream. Technique, luck, ? Oh well. There are lots of ways to hone I suppose.

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Originally Posted by FUD

Yea, I´d have to agree with Lynn on this one. He´s probably honed a few thousand razors more than most of us ...

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And I'd have to add "put together" on the end of that.

X

But did we ever solve this guys problem?

I think the guy's problem is he violated the first rule of honing, don't go and buy a spanking new quality razor and take it to a hone not knowing what he is doing.

Honing takes time and patience and you have to just practice, initially with a junk razor just to get the general idea of what your doing and then with a decent but still crummy razor just to get a result before to attack the quality stuff.

I agree with the pyramid thing. I never use the 4K unless the razor really needs major work. Most of the time a little work on the coticule and or 8K will do the trick.

My only other comment as lynn said each razor is an individual and each requires something different. Thats what makes honing an art.

Can you expound a bit on how you're using two hands? You don't mean you're holding onto the spine over the blade, or do you? I thought that was a no-no because you'd apply too much pressure? (Remembering from Lynn's video)

That's right KD, but different strokes for different folks. What works for one won't work for another. Some guys are just stubborn ... yadya yada.

X

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Originally Posted by stypticinthemorning

Can you expound a bit on how you're using two hands? You don't mean you're holding onto the spine over the blade, or do you? I thought that was a no-no because you'd apply too much pressure? (Remembering from Lynn's video)

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A few caveats: I've only been honing for about a year; I've only honed about 20 individual razors in total (of which only two were 'new'); I've never seen Lynn's video (sorry Lynn :o ). So the information in the following post should be weighted accordingly...

I hone toward and away from me (the hone is perpendicular to me rather than parallel) On the 'toward me' stroke my right hand holds the tang and a bit of the handle with the middle, ring and pinky, respectively. Right hand pointer rests lightly on the spine near the tang, right hand thumb rests lightly on the blade directly under the pointer finger. Left hand only uses thumb and pointer on the tip end of the blade in similar positions to those same fingers on the right hand (pointer on spine, thumb under it). Almost like squeezing the up side of the spine between my thumb and pointer.

Opposite for the 'away from me' stroke ie thumbs rest on the spine and pointers on the blade.

I find that I can do this with pretty light pressure - the thumbs and pointers are basically just guides and the three other fingers on my right hand can control the movement. But if I need to I can add a little pressure if warranted.

I guess it's clumsier and slower than one handed, but it's the way I learned and works well for me - toes and heels are always as sharp as the rest, for example. I've honed hollows, wedges and my Friodur this way and haven't run into any strife.

Anyway, that's it for what it's worth...

James.

I have also found it a little easier to use two hands. I however use my left point finger to help hold the razor down. I hold th razor like Lynn does in his video, but will light touch the end of the razor with my left pointer finger. I don't put it on the spine. It is more like I have bumped the end of the razor up against my left finger. The finger is actually resting on the stone for the most part. With the razor slightly pressed against my finger, I find it easer to guide it evenly down the hone. Since my finger in is really lightly resting on the hone, I am not applying any pressure to the blade.

I, however, see two problems with this, and so I am trying to teach my self how to hand the razor more like Lynn. Either a) your stone is not wide enough and so your end comes off the left side, i.e. you are doing a more exaggerated x pass. Or b) your razor is too wide for your hone. Ok so they are really the same problem. Either way you would be forced to rest more finger on the spine, and I would avoid that if at all possible. I know it can probably be done with a light touch, but there is still a chance of applying to much pressure.

You really just kind of have to play with it a bit and find what works best for you.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I think the guy's problem is he violated the first rule of honing, don't go and buy a spanking new quality razor and take it to a hone not knowing what he is doing.

Honing takes time and patience and you have to just practice, initially with a junk razor just to get the general idea of what your doing and then with a decent but still crummy razor just to get a result before to attack the quality stuff.

I agree with the pyramid thing. I never use the 4K unless the razor really needs major work. Most of the time a little work on the coticule and or 8K will do the trick.

My only other comment as lynn said each razor is an individual and each requires something different. Thats what makes honing an art.

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Na I have an old dovo razor that I am trying my honing techniques on. I gave a run on the hone with my good razor once to try it out, didn't seem to make it any better, but not worse if that matters lol. I'll try it again saturday when all my friends leave my house for spring break.