Very Humbling Honing Experience: Need Advice

After watching Lynn's video several times and reading all the honing advice on the forum for the past month, I thought I would be ready to successfully hone some razors when my Norton and Coticule arrived. The stones came yesterday and I decided to use the pyramid methods described so often on 4 practice razors that I bough and cleaned up from an antique mall. The razors seemed to be 4/4, 5/8, 6/8, and 6/8 all made in Solington Germany and there did not seem to be any damage to the blades.

After laping the Norton stone using the pencil grid method and rounding the edges I decided to use some of the higher pyramids since all the blades were dull and I heard that Solington steel was fairly hard. I did pyramids of 10-10, 5-5, 3-3, 1-3, and 1-5 on all the razors trying to use light and even pressure the whole way as Lynn described in the video.

After this I took the blades to the coticule for 10 strokes and then stroped up the razors with 25 strokes on the leather. The blades felt sharper but not enough to cut the hair on my arm very well. I was not sure if they were over or under honed. I then went back to the Norton for another lower pyramid of 5-5, 3-3, 1-3, 1-5 then 10 more strokes on the coticule and more stroping. The blades felt fairly sharp but not scary sharp.

This morning I tried shaving with all 4 blades hoping that I would get lucky with at least one. Two blades did not cut the hair, and two cut some hair but not well at all.

I am now very confused as to what to do next. There are so many variables and I am not sure what I am doing wrong. It seems that the only way that I can really learn to hone well would be to sit down one-on-one with an expert for a few hours.

Razors from ebay and other such outlets may take a surprisingly lot of honing to get them sharp. It's not unusual for them to require a hundred or even several hundred passes on the 4k in order to get a good bevel. Part of the problem with these old abused razors is that a lot of the time the steel at the edge is kind of rotten from a century of exposure to oxygen, so you have to hone through this into the fresh steel underneath in order to get something that will take an edge. And some of it is that razor steel is very very hard, and the hones are very fine grit, and you're using very little pressure.

MP is right. I'd add to that that many of these razors have edges that are rounded off. Think about sharpening a brand new wooden pencil. You have to remove a lot of material because the end is blunt. To refresh the point requires just a little material to be removed. You have to remove the rounded edge before you can create a sharp one.

Put some electrical tape on the spine and do a few hundred strokes on the 4K just the way Lynn does. Then try shaving arm hair again. At minimum you should be able to shave arm hair pretty well before you start doing pyramids.

Good luck,
Josh

You may also try going to a 1k norton or a sand paper equivalent to reset the bevel.

I used some 3M 1k wet/dry that I got at my local auto parts shop. Secure it to some glass with a bit of tape and make sure it is nice and wet. Combination of the tape and the water keep the paper flat and secured to the glass. Tape up the spine with a little electrical tape and do 60-70 passes to reset the bevel. Take a look at your bevel. If it is nice and consistent then go to the 4k norton and do 30-40 more and you should be good. If the bevel is a little uneven then do sets of 10 on the 1k until it looks good. It is critical to keep your blade level and flat when doing this so that your bevel set correctly. I used a small amount of pressure when reseting the bevel, but not much.

If you don't feel comfortable because of the fast cutting action, then do what Josh Earl and MP have already said about doing a lot of passes on the 4k side of the norton. I just like the 1k because it speeds the process up a bit.

What type of glass are you talking about and where do you get it? Do you mean a glass block?

I think he is referring to a glass plate. Just keep working on the Nortons. I would suggest using 20 lap progression to take you out to the hundred or so passes they are describing. In other words, plan to do 100 but stop and evaluate every 20. No need in ripping the poor thing to shreads. To "check" your progress, do 5 strokes on 8K and check on your arm hair.

You should get a sense when your close, then slow up, take your time and use good form.

I would also recommend just a tad of pressure as you progress and lessen the pressure as you go. Without a little pressure you might be honing into next week, nothing wrong with that, but its time consuming.

You'll likely not be able to hone like a pro without some substative practice.

I think Alan's right - Matt just means anything dead flat - sheet of glass, even some ceramic tiles are very flat.

Sounds like one of my earlier honing experiences (not that long ago) - I really had to reset my thinking about how long it can take for an old razor to get sharp. The worst that can happen (keeping good form, of course) is that you over hone, and given these are ebay practice type razors I'd suggest do some experimenting.

James.

Yes, I was referring to a glass plate. It works in a pinch, but I am going to get a 1k norton eventually. The 4k will work fine, just takes a little longer is all.

I tried for a few more hours today and still no success. I was able to get two razors sharp enough to cut arm hair and shave off some facial hair but not well. After failing to get the old razors sharp I decided to try my DOVO Astrale, but it seemed to be more dull when I finished. One of my main problems is that I cannot get the razor sharp off the Norton. I cannot even get the razor to shave arm hair most of the time. My guess is that my honing technique is slightly off; however, I have no idea where to turn to for help. I am not sure if I am pressing too hard or too soft or if there is some other problem.

Well this is why we say honing isn't all that easy. Your kinda at that point where you just need to practice for a while. I got this part down in just under 4 years. But we can certainly help speed things up along for you.

At this point I'd say the only option is that your using too much pressure. In other words, you could be doing quite a bit wrong but on the pressure question, at this point you should be using less. Like only the weight of the blade.

I'll throw out some rhetorical questions on honing at this stage, which is different than honing at other stages.

Are you using an X pattern, and if so are you using a stroke that is equal in angle and distance on each side of the blade?

Are you still pyramiding? It might be time to just finish it off on the 8k and start stropping. You should be judicious in your use of the 4K at this point.

Have you developed a perfect stroke that allows you to maintain solid contact with the hone without using downward pressure?

Are you seeing water move evenly across the hone during your stroke?

If your answers to all these are appropriate, then you should soon be able to get the razor sharp and smooth. Its the pressure question that you ask that is probably the key.

You can also try this trick. Strop the razor and get everything aligned using some pressure, just a little. Then go back and hone on 8k only with the lightest strokes you can muster using warm water on the hone. These strokes must be perfect. Do not drop the razor on the hone and do not lift the razor on the stroke. Do this with the weight of the blade and SLOW strokes. Then return to the strop with light pressure and a taught strop. Then return again to the 8k for a few strokes with light pressure. Its like a new version of the pyramid. Then strop and test shave.

Using a taught strop and light pressure strop it up.

The stropping can help fix any erronous lifting off from the hone.

Here are some tips to attaining perfect strokes with only the weight of the blade.
1. Realign the stone so you can watch the forward and backward or side to side motion of the razor very clearly in both directions.
2. Curl your pinky under the scales and set the scales more open or less open to relieve the pressure they may be applying to the stroke against the edge. The scales can torque the razor against the edge on the blade.
3. Hold the shank by the sides gently while you lift the razors scales upward (thus the razor is held down, but without pressure). Like a fulcrum. Use the scales against the blade, and your fingers, held thumb and forefinger opposing each other at the shank as the pivot point.
4. GO SLOW... ooopss I said that already, but its important
5. The lighter the pressure the slower the stone cuts so go slow and be patient.

I read your original post again. Add your location to your profile and when you post we can see where you live. Your "expert" might be living right next door.

That's how I met X and he gave me my first honing lesson and got the TEW shave-ready all the way through.

I am living is San Diego right now. Are there any members that live in the Southern California Area?

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I read your original post again. Add your location to your profile and when you post we can see where you live. Your "expert" might be living right next door.

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On top of Alan's excellent suggestions, can I just add that you also try the magic marker test?

Get a magic marker and mark all along the edge on both sides. When you hone you will then be able to see both where the marker is being rubbed off and how quickly. It can help diagnose some problems. (Any excess marker that gets on the blade itself can be wiped off with alcohol, if, like me, you're no good at colouring in...;) )

James.

This is a very good idea! Two quick questions: Does the marker stay on the blade even though the Norton is very wet, and does the magic marker wipe off the stone easily? One more question that comes to mind: Where do you buy a magic marker? I haven't used one since I was a kid :)

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

On top of Alan's excellent suggestions, can I just add that you also try the magic marker test?

Get a magic marker and mark all along the edge on both sides. When you hone you will then be able to see both where the marker is being rubbed off and how quickly. It can help diagnose some problems. (Any excess marker that gets on the blade itself can be wiped off with alcohol, if, like me, you're no good at colouring in...;) )

James.

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Straight razor shaving is supposed to be like a scavenger hunt. You can't just ask where to get the stuff . . . OK, I'll tell you, but just this once; you can get them anywhere from Target, Kmart, Staples, whereever. I don't use this test but I don't think you'll have any trouble getting the marker off the stone.

Wal-Mart or just about any store like that would have markers.

The marker stays on the blade just fine until you wipe it off with alcohol. It doesn't seem to embed in the stone very much, and even if it does it'll come out next time you lap the stone. You have to do that from time to time anyway.

Good luck,
Josh