Tools of honing

Hey guys, lately I got really into straight razor shaving and honing/sharpening. I also read these forums alot to take in some information.
So the thing is, my budget for it was really low but still I wished to get into it. I ordered a double sided 1000/3000 waterstone, a chep GD and a reeaaly cheap belt(i think its not from leather even).

So my question is this.. Can I hone a straight razor using only a (in this order) :
200 oilstone >
1000/3000 waterstone >
a belt with polishing paste >
a cardborad/belt loaded with chromium oxide paste >
a fake belt suppose to be for razor stropping/anewspaper

I know it sounds bad, but im a student at the moment and money isnt the thing im loaded with.. But im still really into this stuff. Using the order mentioned above I got my super cheap GD to a state where I can POP the hanging hair test(not super far though) and it also can trim some hair off my hand in mid air. The shave however is close to painful and I get tiny cuts.

I wish to know where is the biggest problem(I know I have lots of them :D )..
1. on one side i know I havent nothing higher that 3k waterstone.. and I hope the chromium oxide paste helps me out there but of course im not sure.
2. Or its just that I have not enough skill to really hone that GD which is hard to hone.
3. maybe a crapy belt or newspaper isnt enough to finish off the blade

any thoughts here ill be happy to hear. My suspicion is that I loose something going from 3k to polishing patse.. Not even sure its doable maybe someone had experience like this..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hotfuzz

200 oilstone >
1000/3000 waterstone >
a belt with polishing paste >
a cardborad/belt loaded with chromium oxide paste >
a fake belt suppose to be for razor stropping/anewspaper

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Yeah, you probably could.
The 200 grit oilstone is nothing you wanna mess with though.
Way too coarse for most our needs regarding straight razors.

The 1K/3K waterstone should be a good starting point, depending somewhat on what stone it is.
Most waterstones I have tried in that range will do the job.

Now, after that it gets interesting.

Yes, while most here on SRP are very stone and progression minded, pasted strops can be used following the initial bevel set.
I know plenty of people here in Europe who uses that approach, and their edges are just fine.
As to what pastes and what progression you would need, I couldn't advice you all that much.

There are threads about this topic on this site though, search a bit and you will find it:)

Good luck!

All that said, you are mentioning the brand of your razor, and that doesn't make being a beginner any easier.
It could have all sorts of problems, and you being a rookie at this, it would be hard for you to know what comes down to lack of shaving experience, what comes down to lack of honing equipment and shaving equipment and finally what comes down to poor honing/stropping technique.

That is a lot of factors to throw you off the mark.

Thanks for info Birnando, Im happy to hear that going from 3k to a paste is possible. Ill sniff around about those pastes.

As for shaving it self I think im not absolute beginner no more. I have been shaving for about 6 months with straight razor with changeable blades as they dont need to be honed. I really love the process of shaving with straight razor but after a while I just wished to jump from changeable razors to a tool that doesnt create any waste.

8k is considered the start of shave ready. 8k is approximately 3 micron. 12k is usually considered a finisher. 12k is approximately 1 micron. Chromium oxide is about .5 micron. Going from 3k to crox is a massive jump and will take forever to do properly. Balsa wood is a cheap effective stropping medium for pasting. You really want a decent leather strop for daily use. In the library there is some decent information on using pastes. Hth

I'm not sure what your 1k/3k stone is but if it's one of the cheaper ones I've always found that they are incredibly soft and dish very quickly. Just be carefull that your stone is completely flat.

I'm new to razor honing myself but I've quickly found out that these here razors are incredibly sensitive to even the slightest hint of a non flat hone. Even the brand new 12k naniwa needed lapping as it wasn't completely flat (I found out the hard way) it would have been un noticeable sharpening knives but not these razors hehe

As said lap your stones, you can buy no name diamond plates for 15 bucks on EBay that will both lap your stones and can be used for repairing an edge.

There is a large gap in your progression and in effect jumping from 3K to 30k going from 3k to Chrome Oxide. Which by the way make sure you are actually using Chrome Oxide, “Green Polishing Compound” often do not contain much if any Chrome Oxide.

A 4/8 K Norton is a good stone that will get you much closer to a finished edge. Polishing film is an inexpensive alternative and a sample pack can be purchased for under 10 dollars here. I have never used this vendor but it should work, I buy film from Thor Labs they only sell in larger quantities. Film and a 5 dollar tile from Home Depot and you are good.

While it is possible to get to shaveable by stropping on paste, you first have to learn to strop, an area novices have the most problems with, definitely a catch 22. As a result not a recommended process for the novice.

A Gold Dollar can be made to shave, but many (most) have design/manufacturing flaws that must be corrected. Once corrected properly they can shave well.

You will definitely learn a lot in the process, there is a lot written on making a GD shave… Or find a local mentor to cut down the learning curve and frustration. Learning to hone on a GD with a very limited budget is a challenge.

An inexpensive vintage razor may be easier to learn to hone on at least remove one large variable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hotfuzz

As for shaving it self I think im not absolute beginner no more. I have been shaving for about 6 months with straight razor with changeable blades as they dont need to be honed.

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Welcome hotfuzz!

I think the above needs to be started in the Honing subforum as a topic all on its own. I haven't heard of many people successfull honing replaceable blade or trying to, for that matter.

If I had been in your position(prior to purchasing), I might have gone a different direction and bought a Sight Unseen cheapie, knowing it was pro-honed, a cheap but working brush and soap scuttle set from Walmart(VDH-Van Der Hagen) and just bought a Naniwa 12K stone for maintenance and touchups or altogether put off that purchase until I got better. Stropping can be accomplished on my items.

This way you can concentrate on getting *just* shaving down pat. Because with a limited budget and being a novice, there are far too many variables in the mix to ID what goes wrong and when without a mentor on hand to on-look.

If you change your profile to reflect where you are, there may be a mentor in your area. There is a mentor section on here somewhere

Regards,

Thanks alot for comments guys.. Straight razor users really seem to be nice people.
Im doing lots of research and found a really cheap 8k stone that I might order and a friend form England actually ordered me a small natural ~12k stone from ebay, from a vendor that was suggested on this forum.

Today I tried the whole process all over again, spending alot more time on each phase. And I got it kind of sharper. The first few strokes was really close to what replaceable razors feel like, but after half of face it went worse.. So does that mean its the fault of the blades metal or that the edge is not properly set ?
Here I decided to share some quick pictures of my GD and pastes I use:
Attachment 165331
Attachment 165332

I put pastes on slim cardboard like material and put the cardboard on flat, hard surface so it get closer to be like honed rather than stropped. The green paste is a Russian GOI paste which contains Chrome Oxide. Not sure in what quantities though. The light blue one is just a polishing paste.. No idea what grit is it.. it must be some what between the 3k and the Chrome Oxide.

Quote:

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Polishing film is an inexpensive alternative and a sample pack can be purchased for under 10 dollars here

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Thanks Euclid, ill look into those films. I read about them but wasnt sure about the expense and how long will they last. But it might be a cheaper way out.

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I haven't heard of many people successfull honing replaceable blade or trying to, for that matter.

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I tried the method with just stropping the blades with my had.. well it went some-what successful. Didnt try to hone them though.. Could be an experiment...
I also thought of the way you mention Siguy. Get a sharpened cheap one.. but in fact im also really into blade sharpening. I just love to sharpen my knives and knives of other friends.. In my surroundings it is a lost art it seems. People use ether blunt knives(which is annoying) or just those simple-to-use sharpeners where ju just stroke em few times and done.. But im in love with the process and idea behind manual sharpening.

Im from Latvia, thats in Europe. There actually arent any places to buy any hones localy. This stuff just inst popular enough in here. And frankly I dont think there is that much poeple that even use a straight razor in my country. At least thats what I think.

Also I'm laping my stone with a large tile. Draw a grid on the stone with a pencil and grind it down.. seems to work nicely.

Cant wait to see what you got for me WetShaveObsession. :) I would gladly buy a good stone as all the pros do, but for now its a dream that ill have to accomplish later. now I just want to feed my new hobbie addiction. I get obsessed with these things.

So the new question - does the blade loose sharpness because of the bad metal or badly set edge ? Or maybe something else ?

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Originally Posted by hotfuzz

So the new question - does the blade loose sharpness because of the bad metal or badly set edge ? Or maybe something else ?

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Yes, yes as can bad stopping, bad shaving technique, overhoning,,,

Usually, this is why it is highly advised to start with a pro-honed razor and learning how to 1.) pre-shave, 2.) lather properly 3.) proper stropping 4.) basic shaving techniqe.

There's more than enough challenge with these four items without throwing in a host of other things to learn. :)

ps-I can't tell from the photo whether the razor is bevel set or not.

Enthusiasm is a great thing. I know because i'm one who gets consumed with it.

But so is a budget and ciphering out a way to earn/save up enough cold hard cash for a 4/8 Norto. I know it's not the "modern way" but neither is shaving with a real hero razor. But rest assured that 8k is enough for good shaving (with or without pastes).

Do as you can do with what you do have to do with,

there's a lot to learn even if one has _all_ the stones/pastes/strops he'd like to have.

best of luck.

Hotfuzz, do you have magnification?

How do you know that the bevel was set? The bevel looks uneven.

When a bevel breaks down it is usually because it was not fully set.

The paste you are using may be too aggressive or inconsistent in grit size and may have left deep stria on the bevel and edge causing it to chip and fail.

You must find out what is in the paste you are using and make sure that it is fine and consistent enough to polish the bevel finer than the previous stone. Just one large grit, can defeat the polishing process and cause a chip or chips.

When we speak of “Polishing” the bevel, we do not mean make it shinny, with metal polish. We mean reduce the land height of the bevel progressively making shallower and finer stria (scratch marks). This makes this the edge straighter and more comfortable on the skin.

You need magnification to first ensure the bevel is set, the bevels meet in a straight edge, it is sharp.

A razor edge is a very fragile thing and can easily be ruined.

I think I can eliminate the shaving aspect as I have been shaving for almost a year with Straight razor with exchangeable blades. Beginning was harder but after practice and videos from other users and the famous Lynn I consider my self handy with the tool. I stretch my skin and use angles that are close to skin. With changable blades I get really good shave.
I have also watched videos on honing by different users. I use about 40 circles both sides and then changing X strokes with light pressure and in the end with mostly just the weight of the blade. I have my pastes on cardboard with full length of the blade and I do very light stroping like motions.
Attachment 165448

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

The paste you are using may be too aggressive or inconsistent in grit size and may have left deep stria on the bevel and edge causing it to chip and fail.

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As for the paste grits - yes im not sure about the exact grit level on those. When I bought the blue one the salesman said its the finest they got but the vendor didnt supply the grit size information. And for the green one i know it has chromium oxide in it.
Also I have tested them by sharpening about 100+- (I know it ist much but still) knives and was testing the sharpness progression of blade. after 3k stone the pastes did great improvement. Then to see what paste has more grit I changed variations and form feel I can say that they are in right order.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Hotfuzz, do you have magnification?
How do you know that the bevel was set? The bevel looks uneven.

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About the bavel- well im not purely sure about it. From videos I assumed that when the blade seems sharp and kind of grips into fingers skin its ready to move away from 1k, later on similar inspection to see if the sharpness improves along all the blade. The uneven part probably is caused by the spine. But as I watched Lynn sharpen one of his knives he mentioned that the level isnt as important if your doing X swipes. He said that if he would have to correct the spine each time he restored old knives it would be pain.. or something like that.
Here are some photos I tried to get the edge as big as possible..
Attachment 165450
Attachment 165451
Attachment 165452
Attachment 165453

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

When we speak of “Polishing” the bevel, we do not mean make it shinny, with metal polish. We mean reduce the land height of the bevel progressively making shallower and finer stria (scratch marks). This makes this the edge straighter and more comfortable on the skin.

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I do realize that the progrssion and the pastes is not for the shininess but to reduce the scratch deepness into blade. The microscopic teeth becomes tinyer to easyer cut the beard. The shininess is a sub product of the goal. Scratches get smaller and light beams dont get bent so much but rather reflected back. Still metal polish does got grit and it does help to reduce the scratch thickness.

After the shave i stropped my GD again and it pops hairs from 3-4 cm distance from fingers.

Im not an expert but from what I can see there still seem to be a lot of easily visible scratch marks. I would suggest that your stropping on the pastes is having an effect on the very edge of the bevel but is not enough to compensate for the lack of higher grit hones. Some of the pastes like you have also have a lot higher grits than you would think. There is a thread on here about it and in 1 case the bloke saw actually going backwards using the GREEN CHROMIUM OXIDE PASTE from a woodworking site.

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Originally Posted by eddy79

There is a thread on here about it and in 1 case the bloke saw actually going backwards using the GREEN CHROMIUM OXIDE PASTE from a woodworking site.

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Could you maybe direct me to this post ? Or what do I type in to find it ?

Also today I got in mail my 12k welsh stone. lets see what I can make of it.

3 to 12 is a long distance but you have more time than money so you use what you got. The 12k may get you a polished look on your bevel quicker than it gets you to sharp. So even if it looks good you may want to keep going until it is good. It's what you can't see that your trying to fix. Your lower grit stones are leaving microscopic cracks and chips that mid grit stones usually take out. By jumping to a 12k this process will take much longer. If there are no issues with the razor you should be near success.

It seems your tools are not quite adequate at this point. And you don't have the experience to compensate for a bit of that inadequacy, so it may take you a while to get satisfactory results.

I suppose expense is your main concern, so if you can't afford to spend the money for a good quality hone on the 6k-8k level to try and see if you'll get an improvement, then you may want to consider coarser stropping compounds, or may be lapping film (you could hone with edge leading strokes on it).
Look into the dovo line of abrasive compounds - they may be relatively easy to source in europe and the library here probably has the information on their particle sizes/grit level.
Progression of stropping on abrasive media works quite well, even though on this forum almost all discussions are about hones, and stropping on abrasives is usually done on the final stages only.

You just have to get more creative with the more limited options you have.

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

3 to 12 is a long distance but you have more time than money so you use what you got. The 12k may get you a polished look on your bevel quicker than it gets you to sharp. So even if it looks good you may want to keep going until it is good. It's what you can't see that your trying to fix. Your lower grit stones are leaving microscopic cracks and chips that mid grit stones usually take out. By jumping to a 12k this process will take much longer. If there are no issues with the razor you should be near success.

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This actually sounds realistic. Thank for advice ill try to hone it longer than usual. I have a cheap version of TAIDEA 8k stone ordered, the seller is taking forever to ship it out thought, it could take a time.. I know TAIDEA isnt probably approved by most of you guys but I read that some guys are using it for razor honing and they`re doing fine. Plus I found it really cheap. If this wont work then Ill probably gather some money and order a quality one instead.

I can now also check out the difference when honing on 12k stone and going on my ch/ox paste after to see if it improves or makes it worse.

I used a taidea 3/8 to start with and finished on a barbers hone. May take a bit more lapping to keep it flat though. Good luck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eddy79

I used a taidea 3/8 to start with and finished on a barbers hone. May take a bit more lapping to keep it flat though. Good luck

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Oh good, then I'm glad it wasn't a bad purchase.

But while im waiting I had good progress. Fallowed very closely on Lynns instrucions on honing and had pretty nice results. Dont know exactly how a professionally honed razor feels like but my GD now shaves almost as good as with shavette. No cuts and burns on my last shave.

My progression was
(40circles+15 stokes)x2 on 1k,
40circles+15 stokes one time with pressure and on time without pressure on 3k
then about 15 laps on light blue compound
about 20 strokes on 12k welsh stone with slurry,
20 strokes on same 12k with just the water,
30 laps on chromium oxide pasted cardboard,
20 laps on newspaper
50 laps on leather

well with my cheap ass setup I finally did accomplish something. Im guessing with the 8k stone I would get even better results.
The main mistakes I think I made was : To much honing on stones, I spent about 20+ minutes on each stone which seems to be too much.
And also I did super light pressure after the 3k stone.
Well I think that summed up and finally lead me to some-what success. Now Ill just find someone with professionally honed strait and compare. But comparing to shavette it was quite nice.