I wish to be able to shave my face vaguely comfortably, with a blade

I wish to be able to shave my face vaguely comfortably, with a blade that I am able to sharpen/hone. I would like to shave 'dry' or with normal soap.

I am well aware of the complexities of sharpening. I have read many articles (some from this forum) and watched numerous videos. I am also aware or metallurgy. Most information available on the internet about sharpening, I have likely investigated. I doubt there is any more theory out there that will somehow make me sharpen more successfully than I am currently.

Using this various advice, I have managed to create new bevels on various blunt kitchen knives, that enable me to shave the back of my hand consistently. This level of sharpness is more than adequate for cutting vegetables, especially given like most other people, I have got used to relatively blunt kitchen blades, for all of my life.
However, I can not get these blades to competently shave my face, no matter how long I spend trying to hone/strop them. The blades 'pull' at the hairs on my face, which makes shaving with them unfeasible.
The blades do not pass hanging hair test.
The knives are of decent quality, but will definitely not be top end expensive metal.

I achieved the above with a 1800 grit stone. I also have a Norton 1000/4000. I can repeat the above with this 4000 stone, but I can't manage to get the knives sharper than the above.

So my questions are as follows:
1) Is it possible to get an average quality kitchen blade comfortably face shaveable with a Norton 4000 grit stone?
Youtube shows Murray Carter shaving his face with various blades, but it seems he uses a 6000 grit waterstone to achieve this, and I do not remember a mention of the quality of metal of these blades.

If it is possible. What is the most likely reason I am not achieving it:
~ Skill/experience?
~ Bevel angle too large on these kitchen blades?
~ Mettallurgy of the blades is not high enough quality?

If the latter two are the most likely reasons then the solution would be to get a straight razor. Which brings question (2) If I buy a straight razor, given the information I share above, do you think a beginner like me will be able to get a comfortable shave with a straight razor honing on a Norton 4000 stone? (Given I am unable to get a kitchen blade past hand shaveable)
3) Do you believe I could get a comfortable shave from a straight razor on an 8000 stone? I.e. Is the stone grit relevant here or is months of technique/practice necessary before the straight razor becomes realistically useable.

I am basically asking the following question with hope that no one bulls##ts for stupid ego reasons:
~ Can you get your straight razor comfortably shaving from a 4000 grit stone. Can you get other blades comfortably shaving from a 4000 grit stone. If not can you achieve it with higher grits or better quality metal blades.

I realise these questions are subjective to some degree, and therefore difficult to answer accurately. But I appreciate any useful attempt to answer them, and ideally experimentation, in order for me to compare, and consequently decide what my best next step should be. :)

I don't know if this is at all interesting to any of you given this is a forum for straight razors, rather than sharpening in general. But I imagine it is the best place to be asking such a question.
Thanks in advance.

Hmm, well here is my two cents. Can you shave off of a 4K stone? Sure... but I would never want to. If you are determined that 4k is as high as you want to go then investigate how to strop and stropping compounds.

The standard grit for being shave ready is usually considered to be 8k or higher. Best of luck.

Welcome to SRP!
Can you shave with a kitchen knife? Why would you want to??? Geometry issues aside, you would want to reset the bevel on the blade to about 17 degrees.
Can you shave off of a 4k grit? Yes, and you can shave off of a 1k grit as well. I wouldn't recommend it, but you can do it. Shaving off of an 8k is better and a 12k will be more comfortable. Finish it with 30k CrOx strop and that is where I shave at usually.
If you don't feel like purchasing $200 worth of hones, I highly suggest that you send the straight razor out for sharpening. At $30 per sharpening, that's 7 professional honings for the price of the hones.

We do have a honing subforum that you might want to check out
I don't mean the following to be snippy, but you can read all the theory you want and still not be able to hone - it's an art that takes practice to learn.

Prepare yourself to now receive a bunch of different opinions from a bunch of different people. :)

Hi Blunt,

Welcome to the SRP! If you begin any journey from a wrong starting point, you are most probably going to end up somewhere that you would not like to be.

If you would like to enjoy shaving, forget about kitchen knives. Shaving with a straight razor requires skills and precision. And respect. Respect to your tools. Good skills+good tools=great results. Invest in good tools (time and $) and you will not regret that you started this journey.

And one more thing-do not dry-shave with a straight razor...

Regards,
AG

I'll throw this out. Knives have their purpose, shVing is not one. If you want to shave with metal buy a Dovo or Aust from SRD. You will get a shave ready razor that will be comfortable to shave with. You can keep it sharp with a strop and paste as needed. SRD will hone it for you free the first time you need it done. After that if you want do do things yourself get a Norton 4/8. You would be able to get good shaves off the 8k. Most here go higher in grit 12k minimum.

On top of the obvious, is my blade sharp enough question there is also the question of is your technique up to snuff. A close comfortable shave is not achieved strictly ion the sharpness of the blade, it is actually the combination of an amply sharp blade and a proper and experienced technique. So although a razor can shave at 1K, and without a lot of discomfort in experienced ands, a 4K shave is a little more desirable because of comfort and I think you can see the pattern. So if for whatever reason you want to use a kitchen knife as a razor, I hope the steel is good enough to hold an 8K edge and that you practice often enough to develop your technique.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

So if for whatever reason you want to use a kitchen knife as a razor, I hope the steel is good enough to hold an 8K edge and that you practice often enough to develop your technique.

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It sure brings new meaning to "Spike!" :gaah:

Welcome to SRP Blunt: I personally prefer shaving in comfort verses discomfort. There is a reason why good finishing stones are expensive. Good Luck and Keep Us Updated On Your Shaving Progress.

So many questions... But I think the only one that hasn't been asked yet - why do you want to shave dry or with normal soap (I'm thinking the bar of Irish Springs I use in the shower when I hear "normal" soap)? Just thinking about that makes me want to grow a beard. I'll replace every Chuck Norris joke I ever tell from now on with your name if you post a video of you shaving dry with a straight razor.

Why on earth would you want to dry shave with a kitchen knife ?
Okay Dove would be a good soap to start with but the knives have got to go. Wives don't like that type of kitchen invasion. Go to the garage and get something with backbone like http://youtu.be/19iGzOahPkE

Never mind. This guy in the video currently has the honor of replacing Chuck Norris's name in all Chuck Norris joke. However, if you would still like that honor, either 1) dry shave with a hatchet, or 2) shave in any manner you'd like with a lawn mower blade.

"Chicks" Dig Scars

spanky, your not going to show us your wart transplant are you ?

Thanks all for taking the time to reply.

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Originally Posted by MattCB

investigate how to strop and stropping compounds.

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

Can you shave with a kitchen knife? Why would you want to???
I highly suggest that you send the straight razor out for sharpening.

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I realise my questions and preferences are unusual, but the reason they are such, is because I try to do things self sustainably. Hence 'dry' shave or with soap (that I can make). As far as I'm aware, I do not have the materials available to make stropping compounds, and sending a blade to somewhere else isn't what I am after.
If it means I have to grow a beard, or cut my beard with scissors (which I have done - it takes a long time), then so be it, but I'm investigating other means also. That's how I learn.
It seems that most peoples goal here is to get a comfortable luxurious shave, usually not leading them in the direction of trying to get any blade other than a razor to shave their face. I suspect therefore that the expertise here is more in the direction of higher grits than what I am asking. I assumed that expertise transfers to lower grits and different blades also.
Surely you guys sharpen other things than straight razors? And surely you tested them by shaving your face. :)

It seems like the conclusion is for me to get an 8k stone (first), then hone every blade again. Upon that failing, then getting a straight razor.
I ask again - do you think a beginner like me will get a vaguely comfortable shave from a straight razor and a 8k stone? Or am I looking at months/years of practice.

But before that happens, I'll try every other blade in the house, including my axes, and i'll try my best to get more accute bevels.

The guy with the axe in the video doesn't look in pain, but shaving with the weight of the axe doesn't look as masculine as one would think. :)
Is this guy from the forums? It would be interesting to know what grit he used to achieve this.

Together with the lower grit stone that you may own already, I consider an 8000 grit stone the minimum requirement. The pyramid honing method may provide acceptable results in this case.
Razors honed with coarser stones will not provide smooth shaves.

Dry shaving is unlikely to produce comfortable close shaves.

Blades used for shaving need to be honed to a higher standard than kitchen knives and should not be used for any other purpose, which would dull the blade.
As it should be a dedicated blade for the shave it makes sense to buy a straight razor, the shape of which has evolved over 200 years and that is (ergonomically) optimized for the purpose.

There is a reason for the existence of shaving soaps/creams, but if you do not want to use either, you could try facial soap (in the absence of an alternative, I have shaved with Valobra facial soap before) or - after thoroughly softening your face with warm water - a light (massage/skin/shaving) oil applied on a dry face.

All these things are possible, but they all will diminish the quality of the shave.


Lastly, shaving requires skills that need to be learned and practiced.
For most straight shavers it took up to 100 shaves to come close to their final shaving performance.


With what you set out to do, you may be able to get an adequate shave with sufficient practice, even if the shave - due to the limitations imposed by you - will fall short of what most of us here are attempting to achieve.






B.

The title of this post is exactly why there are soaps and razors. I don't understand the devolution attraction. Hell, if the whole quest is to remove facial hair. Why screw up a good knife chasing unicorns? Grab a flaming branch and get 'er done!

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Originally Posted by beluga

Together with the lower grit stone that you may own already, I consider an 8000 grit stone the minimum requirement. The pyramid honing method may provide acceptable results in this case.
Razors honed with coarser stones will not provide smooth shaves.

Dry shaving is unlikely to produce comfortable close shaves.

Blades used for shaving need to be honed to a higher standard than kitchen knives and should not be used for any other purpose, which would dull the blade.
As it should be a dedicated blade for the shave it makes sense to buy a straight razor, the shape of which has evolved over 200 years and that is (ergonomically) optimized for the purpose.

There is a reason for the existence of shaving soaps/creams, but if you do not want to use either, you could try facial soap (in the absence of an alternative, I have shaved with Valobra facial soap before) or - after thoroughly softening your face with warm water - a light (massage/skin/shaving) oil applied on a dry face.

All these things are possible, but the all will diminish the quality of the shave.


Lastly, shaving requires skills that need to be learned and practiced.
For most straight shavers it took up to 100 shaves to come close to their final shaving performance.


With what you set out to do, you may be able to get an adequate shave with sufficient practice, even if the shave - due to the limitations imposed by you - will fall sort of what most of us here are attempting to achieve.






B.

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Very nicely put. Personally I just don't think it would be worth the effort for the likely sub par end result of a poor shave. Growing a beard would be an excellent way to avoid wasting your time. If you want to put that kind of time and energy into it go with learning to use a straight razor.

Bob

As far as the homemade soap goes a few of us have made our own shaving soap. My attempt is documented here http://straightrazorpalace.com/soaps...rs-giants.html. Any type of Lye can be used, you just have to be a bit pickier for the oils/fats.

While you may not have access to "homemade" polishing compounds you HAVE to get a strop of some sort. This can be folder newspaper, an old wide leather belt, or an old seatbelt. There are many posts on the forum about alternatives.

If you get an 8K stone you will be fine. Many people shave just fine from a an 8K.

Best of luck

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Originally Posted by Blunt

Surely you guys sharpen other things than straight razors? And surely you tested them by shaving your face. :)

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No.

You have an axe to take out trees. You have kitchen knives to prepare food. You have hunting knives for field dressing. I would not use an axe to prepare dinner or a kitchen knive to dress a deer. I use a razor for my face.

I realise you are specialists, and what I am trying to achieve is relatively low level quality.

Therefore I appreciate you humouring me and taking the time to reply.

I will definitely attempt the homemade face soap at a later date. MattCB: your level of investigation and experimentation evidenced in that link is inspiring.

I wish you all, all the best. :)

You're right, it's immensely satisfying to get a good shave off a razor I honed myself from butter-knife dull to smooth and sharp. And you can get great shaves off 8k; if you'd visited around 2006-2007, not that many guys here honed up into the really high grits yet.

But _how_ you get there can so be a worthy part. I learned to shave, for many weeks, off razors honed by experts. Then, I learned to refresh them on the 8k (returning them to the experts when I'd screw them up). Eventually, I got good with the 4k/8k and began working up bevel-less blades from 1k. Now I'm at my goal: great shaves from tools I prepared myself.

Best of luck!

personally if you want to go a very long time without buying replacement stones , I'd purchase a set of Arkansas stones.these will last your lifetime plus your son's .buy a 1k grit waterstone to bevel set and have fun.as far as using soap from a store i/e hand soap try using French milled soap.good luck.

I have read all of this thread am here are a few thoughts. If you want to use a knife choose a small one about 6 inches overall length. Any longer and using it would be difficult. Keep the blade for shaving only. Use a high quality knife honed with a low angle to at least 8k. You will want to strop it between uses so a strop is necessary. You mentioned Murray Carter and I have seen a lot of his videos when I first started. He himself mentioned in 1 video that using a knife wasn't comfortable and he uses a lot of his own knives which are high quality with great steel honed by himself ans he is obviously VERY good at knife honing. A good knife will cost you a lot and a good straight shave ready can be had from around 40 dollars and will last a few lifetimes if looked after properly. As for dry shaving even water alone would be better. Different oils or even body soap like dove even better again. Good luck with what ever you choose and let us know how you go

In regards to the axe video, I can see shaving with a gransfors axe. I have one of their hatchets that I use for roughing in logs and it can be honed to 12k without any problem and comes off of a .1 micron diamond pasted strop sharp enough to literally split hairs. Great Swedish steel in their products.

As for going self sufficient, why not just ditch the steel blade altogether? Get a large piece of obsidian and shear off a blade as you need it. Instant blade, no honing necessary, completely environmentally friendly. I think there is even a youtube video about how to shear the stone for shaving blades.

Some things to consider are:
1: “Usual” bevel of a Working knife 25 - 30 degrees Straight Razor 15 - 20 degrees
2: “Normal” temper of a Working knife 53 – 63 HRC Straight Razor 58 – 67 HRC
3: The hone on a razor needs to be meticulously flat, not so for a knife. I do not to mix the two stones up, a razor is the most precise and deliberate edge you will ever deal with. You can comfortably shave off of an 8K edge.
4: Shaving with water and soap is possible but if you make your own soap, shaving soap is not far off. There are a few web sites that list recipes however fine tuning it is where it is at, people are very secretive about their specific recipes.

The edge of a working knife needs to be more robust than a razor, a razor needs to be harder to hold an thinner edge at around .35 - .45 micron. A normal knife will usually foil at these angles. I have tried a two bevel option, one side at 30 degrees and one at 17 on some Wusthof Trident knives and it did not work.

A knife is considered sharp when it shaves hair at skin level, with a razor this is usually a indicator that you have a good bevel and can begin refining the edge. A fair bit of effort goes into keeping a razor edge pristine. you would most probably end up with a knife that you specifically use for shaving any way.

I've done this before using Dove soap, it actually works fairly well, it's not as good as some of the finer shaving products in the market but it does the job

How to Make a Shaving Cream for Men: 10 Steps (with Pictures)

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Originally Posted by Blunt

I realise you are specialists, and what I am trying to achieve is relatively low level quality.

Therefore I appreciate you humouring me and taking the time to reply.

I will definitely attempt the homemade face soap at a later date. MattCB: your level of investigation and experimentation evidenced in that link is inspiring.

I wish you all, all the best. :)

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