My Learning curve - so far....

Hi Folks,
I started a thread in the Introductions section, but since the subject has extended beyond that, I figured I would start a new thread.
To recap:
Got a straight-razor shaving set from my wife for Christmas that included a Gold Dollar 208 that was supposed to be shave ready. Not so much it seems, but perhaps I rolled the edge in my heavy handed attempts at stropping. I worked on the edge and technique a bit and got some improvement, but still wasn't convinced the razor was sharp. Got myself a Dovo shavette and gave that a shot - was able to shave pretty darn well with it with only very minor bodily injury.
From this exercise I concluded that need for further skill notwithstanding, shaving with the GD in its present condition was like pushing a rope. So, somewhere along the way, I decided to order a couple of truly shave ready razors from WhippedDog.com and I am currently eagerly awaiting a delivery from the mailman.

That pretty much summarizes my voyage to this point - oh, except for some kind regards and good contacts with local straight shavers. Great group of people that I am looking forward to meeting up with.

Since then, I used the shavette a couple of times with substantial success and a very good shave which boosts my confidence that I can do this. Under the "what have I got to loose" premise, I decided to do some work on the GD. After a bit of research and experimentation, I concluded that the GD needed the heel ground down a bit so it was out of the way. I pulled out the Dremel tool and had at it. I buffed it a bit when done, but only had red rouge handy and didn't worry too much about appearance for now. I can't say my modification is beautiful, but the heel is now significantly more out of the way. At that point, I flattened out my stones started out at 4000 and worked up to 12000 with relatively light strokes (circles and longer strokes). I then did some careful stropping - about 100 round trips on my wood backed strop and called it a day. End result was a razor that could cut a bit of arm hair above the skin, but couldn't pass any hanging hair test that I could figure out (shavette passes easily every which a way).

This AM, I did another 25 round trips on the strop as lightly a I could manage. I notice that I now hear a bit of a swishing sound on the strop. (Is that good?) After some hot wet towels, pre-shave oil and my best lather so far, I gave the GD another chance. Can't claim success yet, but I actually got significant improvement! No cuts, no burn but a significant amount of beard shaved. Two mostly full passes, mostly WTG and a bit of XTG (my face hair grows in many directions) and not much attempt at the cheek line. Left me with a relatively semi-passable shave. Good enough that I didn't bother to clean up with another razor. So it looks like I am getting there. Still looking forward to the mail this evening!

I have some CrOx paste and a piece of flat balsa. Should I try to get the blade a bit sharper with that? Other advice?

Jerry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jerrybass

Hi Folks,
I started a thread in the Introductions section, but since the subject has extended beyond that, I figured I would start a new thread.
To recap:
Got a straight-razor shaving set from my wife for Christmas that included a Gold Dollar 208 that was supposed to be shave ready. Not so much it seems, but perhaps I rolled the edge in my heavy handed attempts at stropping. I worked on the edge and technique a bit and got some improvement, but still wasn't convinced the razor was sharp. Got myself a Dovo shavette and gave that a shot - was able to shave pretty darn well with it with only very minor bodily injury.
From this exercise I concluded that need for further skill notwithstanding, shaving with the GD in its present condition was like pushing a rope. So, somewhere along the way, I decided to order a couple of truly shave ready razors from WhippedDog.com and I am currently eagerly awaiting a delivery from the mailman.

That pretty much summarizes my voyage to this point - oh, except for some kind regards and good contacts with local straight shavers. Great group of people that I am looking forward to meeting up with.

Since then, I used the shavette a couple of times with substantial success and a very good shave which boosts my confidence that I can do this. Under the "what have I got to loose" premise, I decided to do some work on the GD. After a bit of research and experimentation, I concluded that the GD needed the heel ground down a bit so it was out of the way. I pulled out the Dremel tool and had at it. I buffed it a bit when done, but only had red rouge handy and didn't worry too much about appearance for now. I can't say my modification is beautiful, but the heel is now significantly more out of the way. At that point, I flattened out my stones started out at 4000 and worked up to 12000 with relatively light strokes (circles and longer strokes). I then did some careful stropping - about 100 round trips on my wood backed strop and called it a day. End result was a razor that could cut a bit of arm hair above the skin, but couldn't pass any hanging hair test that I could figure out (shavette passes easily every which a way).

This AM, I did another 25 round trips on the strop as lightly a I could manage. I notice that I now hear a bit of a swishing sound on the strop. (Is that good?) After some hot wet towels, pre-shave oil and my best lather so far, I gave the GD another chance. Can't claim success yet, but I actually got significant improvement! No cuts, no burn but a significant amount of beard shaved. Two mostly full passes, mostly WTG and a bit of XTG (my face hair grows in many directions) and not much attempt at the cheek line. Left me with a relatively semi-passable shave. Good enough that I didn't bother to clean up with another razor. So it looks like I am getting there. Still looking forward to the mail this evening!

I have some CrOx paste and a piece of flat balsa. Should I try to get the blade a bit sharper with that? Other advice?

Jerry

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Before I say ANYTHING else, my recommendation is that you keep every razor away from balsa wood strops. Far, far, far away.

Now for the record I'm a newbie also. I've got one year of straight razor shaving, honing and stropping under my belt. I still consider myself a newbie. About the balsa wood. I am very good at sharpening knives and while balsa strops have their place in a knife world the balsa all by itself is much too coarse for a straight razor. I polished a knife bevel once and then used a balsa strop with .5 micron or .25 micron spray on it and it destroyed the mirror finish. The ultra fine spray was wasted because of the coarseness of the strop (balsa). If anyone with more experience than me says to use balsa give it a try. But I don't think anyone will.

Now what I've learned in the past year. Don't spend a lot of time with your stones (hones). While honing is essential in my mind it takes a back seat for newbies compared to learning to strop. Here's why. I got one of the $41 razors from whippeddog.com a year or so ago. It came very sharp. Much better shaves than I was getting from the razor I was honing which is a Boker gifted to me. So I was about 2 months into straight razors and after I stropped the $41 razor it was just like the one I had been using. My stropping skill wasn't good enough is my conclusion. I see this now that I'm a little more experienced. Another conclusion is I should have spent more time learning to strop and not so much practice time learning to hone. If you can strop well you can keep a shave ready razor very sharp for months. I say that because the first week of November, after a year of my own honing/stropping and shaving I bought a Dovo from SRD that Lynn honed. The shave from this razor was night and day better. THIS is a shave ready razor. Now that I've gotten several months of stropping practice I have been able to keep that razor super sharp and I'm not considering honing it any time soon. I've been reading where people have been saying they use the same razor for months, maybe a year before it needs to be re-honed. Until now I didn't imagine that was possible. So, if you've only been honing and stropping since Christmas I suggest you work primarily on stropping. Don't even think about honing right now. You'll be happier faster just stropping. I say that based on my experience. So that's just one guy and I still consider myself a newbie. What I shave with now is the Boker that I hone and strop and the Dovo that I've only stropped. Since the Dovo is still shaving great I'm assuming my stropping skill has developed considerably. The Boker shaves real good now but still trails the Dovo a bit. I think (don't know) this is because I need to get it a bit sharper using hones before I can get it to the point Lynn had the Dovo when I got it. Not that I will get my skills equal to Lynn's any time soon. I'm thinking maybe in a few years but that doesn't worry me. Anything done great takes lots of time and practice to master.

If you don't mind I'll make a suggestion for your two new razors. Use one and only strop between shaves. Keep the other one stored so in 3 months or so you can use it compared to the razors you've been honing and/or stropping. For me it's important to have a comparison. How else will I know how "shave ready" my razors are. I just remembered something. The guy at whippeddog will mail you a used razor for you to hone and strop to the best of your ability and send it back to him for evaluation. He charges $15 I think. I did that and his evaluation of my honing was the edge was like the razor had been honed and then used several times. Still shavable but maybe to the point of re-honing needed was my interpretation of what he said. That was 10-11 months ago I think. Since you have already used stones on your GD keep using hones on it for practice. Use the new razor that you shave with and only strop it between shaves. When you strop make sure you force yourself to go slow. Don't worry about the videos of people stropping and you can't even see their hand moving. :) When it comes to the "light touch" everyone talks about that takes a lot of practice. How much practice will depend on how fast you pick up new things. Personally, I never pick up new things real fast. Another thing about the way I usually learn something is I work and work at it with not much improvement and then suddenly all the work seems to kick in and the improvement is dramatic. That's just me though.

When I say "practice" I mean sit there watching tv and stropping. You will need to pay more attention to the stropping though. Strop for a few minutes as if it were between shaves. Two to four minutes. Take a break and do it again in a few minutes. If I were to practice by stropping 100 passes only between shaves I'd have never gotten as good as I am now, and I'm not great. Competent I think but still need work. I bought two razors on ebay for almost nothing and I use them for practicing. The new razor you use shouldn't be used to practice. Only do the 50-100 passes between shaves and that's all. WHat strops do you have? Do you have a leather and a second strop of linen or felt or webbing? That's another thing I've done with the Dovo. I've used a webbing strop with .5 micron diamond spray (the stuff on SRD) every 10 shaves or so and then the leather strop. I have the kangaroo strop also. Either the leather or the kangaroo work fine IMO. I prefer using the roo because it's softer but for the moment I can't say it does a better job. The quality of the edge is controlled by our ability, not the strop we use. That's assuming you have good quality strops.

That's it from me. I won't give advice for honing or stropping. I'll leave the details about that to the pros. The only thing I really want to convey is honing and stropping both take quite a bit of time to become very proficient and not to get discouraged any more than possible. Also, that stropping is far more important to learn instead of honing. Honing is essential for me because I want to maintain my own razors. But if I can keep a razor shaving great for six months or more without hones sending it to Lynn for honing wouldn't be a problem. His ability is worth every penny. People on this forum always emphasize stropping over honing. I've come to see why that is. Stropping is the key to consistent, smooth shaves. Still practice honing a little and by the time you need a razor re-honed you will be better with hones. Hopefully anyway. Hope some of this helps. Keep at it and good luck. Don't forget I'm still a newbie too and anything I say should be taken with that in mind.

Jack

Welcome to SRP. Jerry Bass: Congratulations it sounds like your well on the road to becoming proficient at shaving and maintaining a S.R. Soon the S.R addiction will start and you'll be shopping for Ralf Aust Classic S.R.

First know that while Gold Dollars can be made to shave, they are fraught with problems most novice honers are not prepared to deal with.
So if you want to hone it, you may have to repair it first.

Post some photos of the razor on both sides as close to the bevel and edge as possible and the stabilizer.

What brand of stones do you have?

Do you have magnification?

What kind of strop do you have?

What brand of Chrome Oxide do you have?

Is the spine and edge flat?

Don't give up. I faced a mountain of problems when starting. It *will* come together.

Answer Euclid440's questions as best you can and I'm sure that you will receive correct instruction.

HOLD FAST, brother.

Sounds like it is coming together and for a fist try at honing not to bad. Generally we recommend you don't go past the 8k mark while learning to hone and that your razor should be shave ready and passing hht etc at that level consistently before you move up in grit. Balsa can work as a medium for paste just make sure to sand it smooth and make sure no grit etc is left behind. It will take practice but you should have a razor to shave with and for comparison soon and it should only get better for you. Good luck

Thanks for the advice folks, and Jack, thanks for the long thoughtful post.

My current philosophy with the GD, is that it is something worth playing with to see if I can use it to help learn it all, stropping, honing and shaving - assuming I can get the first two to work. With all respect for your advice, since I am not working this week and can only shave so much, figured I might as well work on the other skills. At this point, I consider the DG something of a burner to help out my skills and no big loss if I damage it .... again!

With all that in mind, and again on the theory of "what the heck" knowing I have sharp razors coming, I decided to give the CrOx on balsa a shot. Don't have any diamond paste or spray. No chance I'll try anything but careful stropping - for a while on a quality sharp razor. But, I did 15 light pressure round trips on the balsa after making a paste from the crox stick I have and spreading a thin coat over the whole surface (well flattened on my stationary sander). I then did a total of around 75 strops round trip on my wood backed leather strop. _ Well, much to my surprise, I got a pretty respectable shave out of her this morning. Very clear improvement over yesterday. Nobody more shocked than me! Did a pretty good cycle of WTG and another pass attacking the weird grain as best I could figure out how. Not the best shave ever, but not bad at all. Pretty pleased at this point!

I did receive the two razors from Whipped Dog this afternoon and took a brief look at them. Very pleased with my purchase! They are clearly very nicely sharpened - much more than my GD and perfect for my current needs. I plan, for now, to keep one as is for reference and the other will be my daily shaver with only careful stropping. I highly recommend Larry at Whipped Dog. He done me OK!

Per Elucid :
"First know that while Gold Dollars can be made to shave, they are fraught with problems most novice honers are not prepared to deal with. So if you want to hone it, you may have to repair it first." I did lots of reading online about them and quickly realized that mostly they can be made to work, but some rework is likely needed. Mine clearly needed the shoulder (I guess that is the stabilizer) close to the hinge is in the way of honing and may be causing a twisting during stropping. That is why I ground down that part. The blade will also hit the scales when closing if not careful, so I have to figure out how to repair that.

"Post some photos of the razor on both sides as close to the bevel and edge as possible and the stabilizer." I'll see what I can do and post later. My grinding job ain't pretty, but the stabilizer is not much of a problem now.

"What brand of stones do you have?" I have a DMT diamond plate that is coarser than my King 1200 waterstone. Also have a Norton 4000/8000 combo, a 6000 (I think) King and a 12000 stone of unknown brand. Also have a combo oil stone and a number of other diamond plates, slipstones, etc. I used to do lots of woodturning and woodworking, so my shop is pretty well equipped, and I have done lots of sharpening of knives, chisels, blades, etc. but nothing as delicate as a straight razor until playing with this GD. Currently passing part of my time doing some finishing and building of electric guitars. BTW, over the years I have taken a several sharpening classes including a couple of hours of instruction from a few rather famous world class woodturners. Lots of simple things can be mysterious until you spend time thinking about them, and it all helps with the razor, but I obvious am nowhere near competent in this arena yet. Oh yea, and I am a bit of an anal retentive engineer by education.

"Do you have magnification?" Not much - a good 10X loupe and a so-so lighted 10X magnifier and a few misc. cheap magnifiers. I have been looking at the edges with the magnification I have, and it is good enough to see if I am getting from 4k to 6K or 8K without leaving much trace of the coarser grit, but it would be cool to see a better picture of the edge. Gotta put on my thinking cap to figure out how to get use of a decent microscope.

"What kind of strop do you have?" I have a 2" leather strop that came with the razor and is of questionable quality. I am a bit afraid of it. I made a couple of strops that are about 3 inches wide and a bit over a foot or so long by gluing some leather to a flat board and sanding it flat. I have been using that mostly. Also have some balsa wood that I used a little strip of for the CrOx I spoke of earlier.

"What brand of Chrome Oxide do you have?" Not sure. I have had it for probably 30 years as part of a set that included white, green, black and red/brown. I used some of it in the past to polish edges and actually to polish really hard wood that was being turned on the lathe (a trick I learned from Del Stubbs in a woodturning course).

"Is the spine and edge flat?" It is now :) - actually the edge is pretty good, the spine had a bit of a bump that appeared to have been worked on a little. I did a little more work on the spine to remove the little bump and polish it up a little. Appears to be pretty flat now, but I think that is worth a double check since I mostly focused on getting rid of the remains of the bump.

Eddy - gotta work on that hanging hair thing. Still haven't managed that but intend to try it on the razors I received from Whipped Dog today and see where they are for reference. I was able to readily cut hair from my arm hair about 1/4 inch or more pretty well with the GD so I feel like it is drastically better than when I received it. Quite satisfying - but not content yet. I'll probably keep working on the GD a bit just for fun (I actually like sharpening things when I am in the mood and have time on my hands), but I am excited about having a quality razor with a sharp blade from Whipped Dog in hand for use in "honing" my shaving skills.

Thanks for everyone's support and advice. It is truly appreciated, and I can't wait to get together with some locals soon.

Jerry

So it sounds like you have all you need, except for a new strop, some quality Chrome Oxide and possibly a bit more magnification and a true high grit finishing stone, for now the 8k will work just fine.

First lap you stones with you Diamond Plate, lap under running water or in a pond, I use a plastic shoe box. If you don’t you can ruin you diamond plate. Mark a grid with a pencil and remove the grid a couple of times and bevel or round the face edge. You will probably want to have separate stones for razors as knives and chisel can tear up a stone face.

Your 12k is probably not close to 12K, so for now do not use it. You can grit rate it by comparing the stria it produces to a known grit synthetic stria, start with 8K. For now…don’t use it. First learn the honing mechanics, there is plenty of time for playing with natural stones after you know you can hone. It will just confuse the issue by adding an unknown.

Make a new strop from any smooth leather, 3X12 inches or a bit longer, glued to a flat piece of wood, I use MDF. The sanded leather will probably contain imbedded grit from the sand paper, all of the grit is much larger than the grit of the finish stone. One errant grit can ruin your edge, why take a chance?

You sound like a capable guy where gluing up a new strop should not be a big deal.

So first of all understand that knife sharpening is different from razor honing because a razor must be keen and comfortable. A piece of meat or wood does not care if the knife or chisel has a chip or burr, your face does.

It is not just about sharp.

The most important skill to learn is the ability to repeatable be able to know when the bevel is set, (the bevels are flat, and meet COMPLETELY in a straight edge).

There are many way, the easiest, and most foolproof and guaranteed repeatable is the visual test, by looking straight down on the edge with magnification and light,

here is a video of this.

You will hear a lot about hair test and while it is cool it is simply an unreliable test because the sample is so small. You are only testing one micron of the edge at a time, how long will it take to test the WHOLE edge?

You want simple, quick and absolutely repeatable.

If you see ANY shiny reflections, the bevels are either not meeting (not set) or you have a chip(s).

Your Chrome Oxide is not pure Chrome Oxide and can ruin an edge, it is Green Paste and may contain little or no Chrome Oxide and unknown grit of unknown grit size. We want simple, consistent and repeatable results.

A stick of quality Razor Chrome Oxide or small quantity of powder is inexpensive 10-15 bucks and a lifetime supply, keep it simple and easy do not introduce any unknown variables, (do you sence a theme here?) Good Chrome Oxide should be .5um about 30k grit. SRD sells a quality stick.

Now look at your GD edge, then look at your new, hopefully still un-stropped razors. It is not unusual for a novice to strop a perfectly shave ready razor and ruin the edge before it was ever shaved with.

What you see will determine the next course of action.

For magnification a loupe from ebay is about 5 bucks for a 30 or 40x. You will see Gssixgun use one in his vids and even says he only buys these cheap ones. The 40x with light are all you should need. +1 to the crox. The stick from SRD, the hand America paste from Star Shaving or powder from Kremer pigments in Germany are all quality crox.

link for kremer- Chrome Oxide Green

Great advice guys. I have had good experiences with all of the sharpening materials I have before, but no doubt this is an area where there are clearly some potentially unacceptable unknowns. I actually have another strop I already made that is thinner and longer(about 2 inches by 16 inches) that I didn't sand, but found it a little harder to use than the three incher (which had a few small leather defects and an inadvertent dab of glue - thus the sanding). Can't say I have seen any visual evidence on the blade of any stray pieces of grit, but on thinking about it, I bet they are there - could even be deeply embedded waiting to show their ugly heads at an inopportune time. It is a beauty though, so I am going to work on salvaging it - but will pass on using it on a razor blade for now until I figure out how to assure it is clear of any sanding residue. Looks like time for a bit more shopping to get a better loupe and some crox. All that said, I am feeling like the GD is working its way into being a keeper and quite usable.

Tried to take some pix this AM of the GD through a large magnifier, but the photos don't really tell any story, so I'll spare you the post. Examining a new razor edge from Larry with the GD under 10X doesn't show much difference. But in good light with limited magnification I can look down both edges and see no

I first used some coarse diamond stones to do the flattening and then used some 1000 grit wet and dry Norton on marble to initially flatten the stones. I followed by using the finer DMT diamond plate under running water in my bathroom (Shhhhhh..... Don't tell my wife) to finish them up. I feel pretty confident of their flatness and freedom of residue. Used pencil marks at all stages to verify flatness. The 12000 stone was a gift a few years ago but appears to at least be significantly harder and finer than 8000. Hasn't seen much use and was pretty flat to start out - didn't take much to get it really flat.

Thanks much for the link to the video on sharpness tests. I always use the "sight down the edge" test regardless of what I sharpen (possible exception for all tests is certain woodturning tools straight off the grinder where you might use a wire edge to do the cutting or not worry since it will disappear as soon as it touches wood). Both the GD and the new razor pass with flying colors except for right at the curve of the area I ground down, and right at the curve of the tip on the new razor - perhaps Larry rounded it to keep me from cutting my ear off! Also couldn't spot a wire edge on either razor. The pin test was a new one for me, but I tried it out and couldn't find any wire edge with it either. Your point about the hht is so well taken I didn't even try it (actually, forgot and greased the razors up before I remembered, so perhaps another time).

Oh yea, back to shaving, I used one of the razors from Whipped Dog this morning and had pretty good success. I would say better than the GD for sure, but I did get three nicks. They were all in problem areas that I probably shouldn't have attempted yet. (Come on, admit it - you did the same thing :) ). I also used some Prosoro pre-shave and shave soap. Liking the pre-shave, but had some trouble getting a good lather with the soap. More areas to work on!

Progress!
Jerry

Ed, thanks for the link to the crox. I notice that this crox is apparently mostly used as a pigment (as are many of the others I see online). I am not positive, but I think that if you look at the spec sheet at the link you provided, you will see a Chemical Accession Number (CAS-No.) which in this case is 1308-38-9. Someone more knowledgeable than me on this may be able to verify that this number is pretty much a unique identifier for the material. I bet if we look around a bit, we can find a U.S. distributor of material having the same CAS number for use in paints or cosmetics or the like if not specifically as an abrasive. If that is the case, it may open up a few new sources for this stuff.

BTW, the spec sheet for the Kremer crox says that the purity is 98.5% to 99.5% Cr3O2 with predominant particle size of .3um. There is no maximum particle size specified, but if I read it correctly, up to .02% could be trapped in a .045mm (=45um) sieve. This suggests to me that this powder could include particles with a dimension greater than 45 microns in some direction. I am by no means a chemist or expert on this type of thing, but I have a client in the nanotechnology business dealing primarily with nano-carbon particles. If there is any similarity, it is possible that the larger particles are actually agglomerates of smaller particles which when spread on a strop might well break down quickly and disburse into the basic particles averaging .3um in size. (incidentally, the definition of particle size for irregular particles appears to be a little fuzzy, but often means the size in the longest direction, but there are other definitions too!) If people are successfully using the stuff for stropping, the possible presence of larger particles is probably a non-issue. But just couldn't keep the engineer in me beat back :) .

Oh yea, ordered a couple of loupes today - then remembered that I had a magnifying head band. Examination of the blades under this somewhat greater magnification didn't reveal anything more than what I saw under 10X. One of the loupes I ordered is 60x, so I'll be interested in seeing if it shows anything more of significance.

Jerry

Ok so, if the bevels are meeting and even, go to the 4K.

The goal is to remove all the 1k stria with X strokes on 4k, so you have even 4k stria. Do as many laps as it takes, start at 40 laps with lite pressure. If you need more… do more laps, not more pressure. Check the edge for chipping and ensure the bevels are still meeting.

The other goal is, NOT to create a burr, because when the burr breaks off, you have a ragged edge. If all goes well, go to the 8K.

Here, remove all the 4k stria with even 8K stria. You will notice after the 8k, the edge will get much straighter and more even. Do at least 40 X laps, the goal is to remove 4k stria and straighten the edge.

Once you have removed all the 4k stria you want to polish the edge with 20 weight of the blade laps. Your edge should be laser straight and smooth. Run a Q tip along the edge from heel to toe and it should not snag. Use the visual test to ensure the bevels are still meeting.

Stay on the 8K until all micro-chips are gone from the edge, (little dots of shiny light) here is where extra magnification will pay off.

If all goes well, strop on Chrome Oxide.

Kremer Chrome Oxide is good, mix with mineral oil and paint on 3 in X’s with your finger fairly heavy, let dry and your good to go. I would only use, Kremer, Hand America or SRD Chrome Oxide, I have use all three, do not use any woodworking Chrome Oxide, it is not expensive, buy the good stuff.

When you strop on Chrome Oxide use lite pressure, this is where a lot of guys go wrong, using too much pressure and rolling or breaking the edge, a razor edge is very, very fragile, you cannot see it, at 400 power.

Check the edge with the visual test and if all is well strop on leather 50 laps and shave test, use lite pressure, not like stropping a chisel or knife, lite pressure.

Water stones only need to be lapped to 300-400 grit. A DMT 8C is a great plate, although I just bought a 300 grit, I Wood plate and it is a very nice plate without the stiction and about the same price as a DMT. A 300 ish diamond plate make lapping much easier. You want to do a quick lap every time you hone, to refresh the stone face.

If the razor does not shave well, either the bevel was not completely set or too much pressure was use and rolled or chipped the edge.

Avoid setting the bevel with a Diamond plate, chances are you will get chipping in the high grit stones. They are too aggressive, you can flatten the bevels with them, if breadknifeing for repair, but leave a thin line on the edge before the bevels are meeting, then bring the bevels together with the King 1k, Kings work just fine.

Too much pressure is a common problem, a general rule, medium pressure to set the bevel, lite pressure for the middle stones and lite pressure for high grit stones, finish with weight of the blade. Strop with lite to weight of the blade.

With a linen and leather strop you can keep a razor shaving for a long, long time, with a good Chrome Ox strop… indefinitely.

Anything after that is the elusive 2 percent of keenness and comfort… that many of us chase… how to get there… is the question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jerrybass

Ed, thanks for the link to the crox. I notice that this crox is apparently mostly used as a pigment (as are many of the others I see online). I am not positive, but I think that if you look at the spec sheet at the link you provided, you will see a Chemical Accession Number (CAS-No.) which in this case is 1308-38-9. Someone more knowledgeable than me on this may be able to verify that this number is pretty much a unique identifier for the material. I bet if we look around a bit, we can find a U.S. distributor of material having the same CAS number for use in paints or cosmetics or the like if not specifically as an abrasive. If that is the case, it may open up a few new sources for this stuff.

BTW, the spec sheet for the Kremer crox says that the purity is 98.5% to 99.5% Cr3O2 with predominant particle size of .3um. There is no maximum particle size specified, but if I read it correctly, up to .02% could be trapped in a .045mm (=45um) sieve. This suggests to me that this powder could include particles with a dimension greater than 45 microns in some direction. I am by no means a chemist or expert on this type of thing, but I have a client in the nanotechnology business dealing primarily with nano-carbon particles. If there is any similarity, it is possible that the larger particles are actually agglomerates of smaller particles which when spread on a strop might well break down quickly and disburse into the basic particles averaging .3um in size. (incidentally, the definition of particle size for irregular particles appears to be a little fuzzy, but often means the size in the longest direction, but there are other definitions too!) If people are successfully using the stuff for stropping, the possible presence of larger particles is probably a non-issue. But just couldn't keep the engineer in me beat back :) .

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The kremer crox and feox is the same as used by whipped dog and many use it and have for some time. You get 100g also which is a LOT. I also have the hand America paste and that bottle would be enough to last a few lifetimes.

All great advice from some very experienced shavers. One thing to emphasis and the thing that eluded me initially, make sure your bevel is set. If you miss this everything else on the subsequent hones is a waste of time. After you've been shaving for some time you'll learn when you've achieved a decent shaving edge, it's taken me well over a year and during that time I've collected over 50 SR's. The early ones that I'd honed and thought shave ready I now realize need to all go back to the bevel set stage, but all this comes with experience.
I tried all the bevel set tests and now use the TNT, my interpretation is if the edge grips a wet thumbnail all the way along that's the bevel set and time to move up the hones after a final 6 passes on the 1000k to clear the slight damage from the test. I forget every other test from that point onwards until I try a shave if that works well particularly ATG then it gets a big tick and forms part of my rotation. As you move up the hones another thing that took time to get right was the reduction in pressure untill your using just the weight of the blade. Sounds simple but that also takes time to finesse. One final point someone on here suggested keeping a record of each razors history on the hones and any touch ups beyond stropping, well worth it in my opinion, I soon lost track of how each razor had been treated and whether tape had been used or not. I asked the question when at first I sent them out for honing or bought shave ready blades but lost track. So from about a month ago I put together a simple spreadsheet and religiously maintain both the honing pattern, touch ups and how each one shaved. Anal, yes but it works for me

Thanks again for yet more great guidance!
I feel like I have managed to get my GD into reasonably useful condition and I am looking forward to getting a look at the edges for comparison with the Whipped Dog edges with a more powerful loupe that I ordered. For now, I am in a bit of a holding pattern and using the GD a bit while continuing to work on it. I want to keep the WD razor in current condition for comparison while figuring out the arm, hand, finger, thumb wrist contortions needed to do the shaving in all locations. For now, I am having decent success with the cheeks and neck, but I am putting the chin line on hold until I get a better grasp on things.
This weekend I am looking forward to meeting up with some guys in my area that invited me to join them, so I am excited to see what I can learn there. Hope to also get a critique on sharpness of the razors and whatever else I can learn. So, I am likely to be jumping back in with both feet over the weekend.
BTW, Anthony, I know what you mean about developing the light touch. I think that is the likely cause of my "shave ready" GD being not so shave ready! I am getting there, but just the weight of the blade is way tougher to grasp than seems possible!

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Originally Posted by Jerrybass

Thanks again for yet more great guidance!
I feel like I have managed to get my GD into reasonably useful condition and I am looking forward to getting a look at the edges for comparison with the Whipped Dog edges with a more powerful loupe that I ordered. For now, I am in a bit of a holding pattern and using the GD a bit while continuing to work on it. I want to keep the WD razor in current condition for comparison while figuring out the arm, hand, finger, thumb wrist contortions needed to do the shaving in all locations. For now, I am having decent success with the cheeks and neck, but I am putting the chin line on hold until I get a better grasp on things.
This weekend I am looking forward to meeting up with some guys in my area that invited me to join them, so I am excited to see what I can learn there. Hope to also get a critique on sharpness of the razors and whatever else I can learn. So, I am likely to be jumping back in with both feet over the weekend.
BTW, Anthony, I know what you mean about developing the light touch. I think that is the likely cause of my "shave ready" GD being not so shave ready! I am getting there, but just the weight of the blade is way tougher to grasp than seems possible!

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The light touch is definitely the hardest part. It's one of those things you can't understand until you "feel" it. Then you say "Oh, that's what they mean". I tried to use such a light touch I found myself lifting the heel off the strop or stone. To correct for that I'd lift the toe. :) It's finally coming together for me after 15 months of practicing. Seems like suddenly everything falls into place and THEN all the advice makes sense.

I had the pleasure of attending the Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill shaving meet-up group meeting on Saturday. What a great group of guys! I got lots of tips and an examination of my Gold Dollar to see if I was in the ball part of sharp. Received pretty good confirmation that I am getting the hang of it ("Pretty good - but we can do better!") followed by some one on one honing instruction. Lots of other good tips along the way and I am looking forward to the next meeting. Also received several kind invitations to come over work on the various stages of learning. My razor went home quite sharp, but nobody had crox with them. When I got home, I did a few laps with crox and then a good stropping followed by my most successful shave yet! Thanks to all for your guidance. Looking forward to the next get together.
Jerry

Jerry,

Sounds like you learned more in one day than some of us do in months. I guess that's why one on ones and meetups are so highly recommended.

Here's to increasingly successful shaves! :beer1:

Yes for sure. Since I am an engineer by training, I tend to learn pretty well from reading, so I also got a bit of confirmation that I was doing some things reasonably well. These are a great bunch of very generous and helpful nice guys. So I definitely learned a lot and look forward to finding time to get together one on one with some of them when my day job calms down a little!

Cheers!

Jerry

An hour of hands on is like 6 months of beating you head and razor on a stone.

Last night I coached a guy on stropping for maybe 15 minutes after watching him stop for 30 seconds. Made some recommendations and showed him how, I do it.

I could see the light bulb come on for him, as he said “Oh… I get it”.

I showed him on a Canvas Strop… He grabbed the Nakayama hanging on the door knob… and I said, “No, no… let’s use this one here…”

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

I showed him on a Canvas Strop… He grabbed the Nakayama hanging on the door knob… and I said, “No, no… let’s use this one here…”

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I hope you meant Kanayama. I would not hang a Nakayama on a doorknob!

Just jumping in. My first str8 razor shave happened just a few months ago. Since then I have honed and stropped my razor to my taste (got the Norton 4/8k and a couple of hand-made leather strops for this). I guess that there is still a big path ahead, though.

Other shaving-related abilities are still undeveloped. I don't have a brush (still soap my face with my bare hands, with Gillette aerosol canned foam for "sensitive skin", as I was doing previously for disposable two or three-blade cartridges). I might try a brush and a better soap (or a home-made one, even better) in the future. Another one is shaving itself. I somehow shave my face almost in the same direction (upwards down). The videos I have watched show that more skilled users shave just the opposite near the neck, so there must be an advantage doing so.

I might even try to make a brand-less str8 razor. I make a knife every now and then. When? Well: That's a whole different issue ;-)

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

He grabbed the Nakayama hanging on the door knob… and I said, “No, no… let’s use this one here…”

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Yes, and part of the duties of a mentor is necessary and immediate intervention as needed ;p

I'm stropping with my home made leather on a board strop with nylon webbing on the back side. Plan on getting a nice strop some time, but I have the stuff to make my own hanging strop, so that will come first. For now, I am working on getting the stropping action mastered a bit further. I am more comfortable right now with something rigid - and something that will cost about 75 cents to repair if I damage it. So far I haven't done any damage to it, but man do I ever want to roll that blade the wrong way during the first lap or so!

slow and steady wins the race. 60 slow steady passes done with good technique, beat 200 quick sloppy laps. Oh, and there's a greater risk of rolling the edge.

:)

All I've learned is that styptic pencils burn!:rofl2:

Haven't updated for a few days due to computer problems. I think I am making progress, but it is inconsistent. Sometimes good shaves, sometimes not so much, so I guess I am going through what most do. Trying to balance pressure and angle and direction. I am pretty confident of my blade sharpness at this point.

Maybe I am having an issue with estimating the angle. I know that the rule of thumb is two spine thicknesses is about 30 degrees, so I try to use that as a gage and start with a lower angle. But it seems like the lower angles up to about 30 degrees as best I estimate hang up with me - skipping and just not cutting well. As for pressure, I am sure that I apply a bit too much, but have trouble gaging that too. When I shaved last night I noticed that I got the butter knife on toast sound and nice cutting at what I would have gaged to be more than 30 degrees (at least it seemed- maybe approaching 40 degrees or so) and got a pretty smooth shave with one little nick (probably should even try to shave the area of the nick because it is about where I get nicked every time it has happened). Got a little razor burn, but not too bad. So, should I still be focusing on that lower angle, or should I rely on the audible feedback of the toast sound to determine that I am at a good angle?

Hope to have time to get together with one or more of the locals that I met at the meetup soon if my schedule will clear up a bit. In the meantime, any thoughts appreciated.

Send or take your razors to an experienced honer for evaluation and shave with a true shave ready edge. Sounds like you are compensating for a less than shave ready edge.

Stropping is usually an issue for new shavers, using too much pressure and not enough laps, so even if you get a good edge you can wipe it out with one stroke.

It is not just about sharp, it must be smooth, a good progression after a solid complete bevel set, is the key, topped off by good stropping.

So first make sure your edge is, shave ready and eliminate the largest possible problems.

I honed a razor for a new shaver the other day, that had been shaving with it for months. He said, he thought it was sharp…

Well I can't fully explain my experience of the other day, but I did an experiment tonight using three blades - the one that I used the other night, one that was sharpened but unused by Larry at Whipped Dog, and a shavette with a new blade. I paid more careful attention to the blade angle and trying to gage what was going on and found very little difference between the two straight razors and only the expected differences with the shavette. All were comparable and I got a pretty decent shave (I focused more on the experiment than getting to BBS) . The shavette was sharpest and I had more trouble with lower angles with it, but I guess I was pretty close to the 30 degree mark most of the shave with the two straights today. Perhaps my prep or lather or frame of mind weren't as effective before. OK, I guess I'll forge on, but I

am still interested in thoughts on how much you use the sound as feedback on when you are in the sweet spot. (Sorry about the split post)
Jerry

Not at all…

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Originally Posted by Jerrybass

am still interested in thoughts on how much you use the sound as feedback on when you are in the sweet spot. (Sorry about the split post)
Jerry

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That was my mistake. I was using sound as a cue. I didn't hear what I was listening for so I used more pressure, until I damaged my edge. Don't use sound. I was told to just used the weight of the blade and try to feel even pressure through out the blade. The x pattern makes sure you hit ever part of the blade leading from the heel to the toe.

If some of the veterans can confirm this that would be great. This is what I remember, but I could be wrong.

I only really use sound as a tell. If its nice and even all is good if you get the occasional harsh or scratchy one you are lifting the spine. For the most part I use feel and sight

The angle of attack is pretty forgiving as long as the razor is keen and properly honed.

Go back and look at your edge as in post no.8

If you are still having a problem, sent me your razor and I will hone it for you, at least you can eliminate
one and the largest potential problem.

PM me.

Finally got a 40x loupe yesterday and inspected the blades. Overall not too bad looking, but under 40x I could see a few tiny "nicks" for lack of a better word, at the blade edge that I didn't notice at 10x. That might have contributed to some of the razor burn the other day. Used the Gold Dollar this AM after a shower and full prep and got quite a good shave. Still feeling nice at 5:00PM. I hope to have time to look over the razors more closely this weekend (maybe) and perhaps try my hand at doing a little late night touch up on them if I can escape to my shop long enough. After the sharpening tutoring and hand holding I got at the meetup, I feel like I can at least get an improvement before I shout for help!

Micro-chipping from too much pressure, either honing or stropping. Joint and reset the edge on your highest grit hone.

Then strop with very lite pressure. You may have to do it a few times if the edge continues to crumble, until you get to good steel.