Rolled edge? Time to send to honemiester?

Hi guys, no response to in my other thread so thought I'd open a new one. Received a new "shave ready" TI and did not strop, was hit and miss with HHT, didn't think anything of it maybe I was doing it wrong, went ahead and shaved,felt harsh not smooth at all compared to my feather DX, I got a shave out of it but wasn't that close. New modular paddle arrived, completed 20 laps on scrub leather and 50 on the premium, tested the HHT and was cutting at 100%, shave felt mildly better than the first, 3rd shave felt about the same, so did the 4th. After the 4th, I stropped her up and did the HHT and she was cutting misrebly, I took it to my arm hair and one way it was cutting but when I turned it face down instead or face up she wasn't cutting even with some pressure.

I stropped up again 20/50, no difference, did 20/50 again, nothing. So I sprayed my .5 micron on a wool felt and did 8 laps followed by 50/100, no noticble difference, so I repeated but did 8 then 20/50, nothing.

Time to send out for honing??

I sprayed the wool felt 30 times around 6-8 inches away.

I ordered a loupe but don't know what to look for.

HELP PLEASE.

It certainly sounds like you might need some assistance, i cant help much personally, I only have a very few razors so my experience here is limited, i am sure some of the other fellers will be along soon with something a bit more useful.

You can check for a rolled edge by using a pin. See post #6 for a vid of how to do that http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...-one-link.html .

Bob

I'm not sure where you bought it. I am always hesitant to believe Shave Ready.

If it was from someone on this site. I'd contact them. If it was ebay or the like, then yes it needs to be honed.

If I was having the problems you were describing I would take it to my hones without hesitation.

Invisibleedge, I emailed them before ordering and they said they honed it. This being my first razor I don't know what shave ready feels like but if it's meant to feel like a feather artisan blade then it wasn't.

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Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

I'm not sure where you bought it. I am always hesitant to believe Shave Ready.

If it was from someone on this site. I'd contact them. If it was ebay or the like, then yes it needs to be honed.

If I was having the problems you were describing I would take it to my hones without hesitation.

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Originally Posted by BobH

You can check for a rolled edge by using a pin. See post #6 for a vid of how to do that http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...-one-link.html .

Bob

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It won't even shave my arms hairs. Any suggestions on how to proceed? More stropping with the diamond treated wool felt? I don't have any hones.

There are quite a few members in the UK. I would suggest to try to arrange a meet with one of the more senior members close to you. Failing that you should send it out to get it honed, perhaps even while trying to arrange a meet. It is often best to see and do with someone in the know.

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

It won't even shave my arms hairs. Any suggestions on how to proceed? More stropping with the diamond treated wool felt? I don't have any hones.

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Before I'd proceed with anything I would check and see if you indeed have a rolled edge or not. If it turns out to be rolled and badly enough I'd guess it would be time to have it honed as plain stropping, I don't believe, will bring back a badly rolled edge. I do not think the diamond on felt will do anything.

Bob

First question I'd ask myself "shave ready" by whose definition - factory or honemaster?

Before we continue theorizing about rolled edges (a much overblown problem in my view) we should go back one step and ask ourselves whether this razor ever had the bevel properly set.

For a rolled edge or a poorly set bevel, repeated stropping will not do you much good.

But if you should have at least one hone to maintain the edge (e.g. Naniwa 12,000) you could try to remove a potentially rolled edge and see whether it makes any difference. But if the bevel was poorly set in first place it would be best to start a full honing progression, commencing with one of the coarser hones (e.g 1000 grit).
While some shavers have set a bevel out of necessity only with a typical 4000/8000 starter set, this is certainly not ideal - even less so for a beginner.

In that case a trip to a honemaster might be the obvious solution.

Lastly, as someone who is more used to the Feather AC you may expect too much in sharpness from a straight razor, although with a properly honed straight you should always be able to pop hairs off your arm.

As far as the famous HHT is concerned, I never paid much attention to it and consider it not much more than a party trick.
I'm more of the "the proof of the pudding lies in the eating" and "the proof of the honing lies in the shave school".
But then again, this is strictly my personal opinion.




B.

Look straight down on the edge and angle the blade back and forth looking at the edge.

Any shiny reflections are chips or rolled.

Depending on what you see, will determine what needs to be done, but sounds like at least a touch up with a finish stone.

Too much pressure, while stropping will easily roll or chip an edge.

Diamond are notorious for harsh edges, they will cut hair, but shave like a hacksaw if used with too much pressure.

Here is what you are looking for, the shiny spots are micro chips or rolled edge.

Attachment 194482

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

Invisibleedge, I emailed them before ordering and they said they honed it. This being my first razor I don't know what shave ready feels like but if it's meant to feel like a feather artisan blade then it wasn't.

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I think it's highly unlikely that steve from the invisible edge would send out a razor that was not shave ready. Ive brought new razors from him and used his honing service in the past and can attest his excellent work.

A straight razor even professionally honed wont feel the same as a de. Although imo feels much smoother.

HHT wont tell you much.

Is your technique good? Wrong shaving angles can make for a terrible shave. Also bad stropping can easily ruin an edge.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Before I'd proceed with anything I would check and see if you indeed have a rolled edge or not. If it turns out to be rolled and badly enough I'd guess it would be time to have it honed as plain stropping, I don't believe, will bring back a badly rolled edge. I do not think the diamond on felt will do anything.

Bob

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I don't know if I'm doing the pin test correctly, it doesn't catch. How much pressure am I meant to apply? I'm wary of damaging the edge further.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Look straight down on the edge and angle the blade back and forth looking at the edge.

Any shiny reflections are chips or rolled.

Depending on what you see, will determine what needs to be done, but sounds like at least a touch up with a finish stone.

Too much pressure, while stropping will easily roll or chip an edge.

Diamond are notorious for harsh edges, they will cut hair, but shave like a hacksaw if used with too much pressure.

Here is what you are looking for, the shiny spots are micro chips or rolled edge.

Attachment 194482

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I can't see any shiny spots at all, I shined a lamp directly on it.

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

I think it's highly unlikely that steve from the invisible edge would send out a razor that was not shave ready. Ive brought new razors from him and used his honing service in the past and can attest his excellent work.

A straight razor even professionally honed wont feel the same as a de. Although imo feels much smoother.

HHT wont tell you much.

Is your technique good? Wrong shaving angles can make for a terrible shave. Also bad stropping can easily ruin an edge.

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Yes invisible edge has an excellent reputation. I have no reference point as how well she was honed. I felt the feather AC blades is a significant amount smoother.

I feel my technique is good while still beginner. I get great shaves with the feather dx, with this razor I'll need 4 passes to match the shaves.
My stropping technique might be off, I go straight up and down with the modular paddle, I try to mimic Lynn's action in his videos.

ANy point in trying the diamond spray again?

I might just send it out for someone to a honemiester to look at and get feedback.

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

My stropping technique might be off,

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

ANy point in trying the diamond spray again?

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If you're stropping is 'off ' using any form of abrasive will make things worse, exponentially.

So as I read it, you are asking two question, Was my razor shave ready? And how do I fix it.

First, we will never know… probably.

What you are experiencing is common and the catch 22 of Straight Shaving.

First you have to learn to shave and then you have to learn to strop to learn to shave.

Unfortunately a novice can easily ruin and edge by stropping it, the first time. As said, if you use an abrasive pasted strop and have not mastered stropping you will damage the edge faster and more thoroughly.
All of this is very common.

Find a local mentor to get you pointed in the right direction with your edge and stropping.

The pin test is not a definitive test for a rolled edge, you can roll an edge and the next stroke on the other side can break off the rolled edge and now you have a chip.

Diamond is very abrasive and will leave a harsh edge, when used with pressure it is more so.

So the answer to the first question is…Probably

The answer to the second question is … find a mentor or send the razor out and learn to strop, lite pressure, go slow, keep the spine on the strop the whole time, and stop before you flip.

Until I shaved with a properly honed razor I did not know what a shave ready razor was really like.

I'd suggest the razor needs a honing. Simple as that really, regardless of why it got to this stage. If you had the funds (and I'm unsure exactly how much I haven't checked prices lately but you could look them up)

I'd maybe get a Shapton 16k and do 20 laps and see how you go. I'd tape the edge, regardless of if you knew the edge was taped on its first honing.

Second option would be a Norton 4/8 AND a Shapton 16k.

I seriously think if you invested in a hone and check back here someone could essentially talk you through it; I would. I'd tell you exactly what I'd do and video it and explain it. Of course the aim is some learning and new skills for you (teach a man to fish) but there'd be no guarantees.

A cheaper and less risky option it to send it to get honed. The benefit there also is that you'd KNOW what a properly honed razor felt like.

I guess a third option and I think one that's been mentioned is to hook up with someone personally.

Of course ALL of these options require you do your homework (reading).

Carl

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

I'd suggest the razor needs a honing. Simple as that really, regardless of why it got to this stage. If you had the funds (and I'm unsure exactly how much I haven't checked prices lately but you could look them up)

I'd maybe get a Shapton 16k and do 20 laps and see how you go. I'd tape the edge, regardless of if you knew the edge was taped on its first honing.

Second option would be a Norton 4/8 AND a Shapton 16k.

I seriously think if you invested in a hone and check back here someone could essentially talk you through it; I would. I'd tell you exactly what I'd do and video it and explain it. Of course the aim is some learning and new skills for you (teach a man to fish) but there'd be no guarantees.

A cheaper and less risky option it to send it to get honed. The benefit there also is that you'd KNOW what a properly honed razor felt like.

I guess a third option and I think one that's been mentioned is to hook up with someone personally.

Of course ALL of these options require you do your homework (reading).

Carl

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Sorry Carl, I don't agree.

From the conversation so far, it has become obvious that the OP is not even sure whether the razor is suffering from a rolled edge caused by incorrect stropping, or a dulled edge caused by incorrect honing, or incorrect use.

While the ultimate solution is indeed a proper honing regime, the OP has not yet built the experience to analyze the problem; in fact the root cause may be his lack of experience in stropping or shaving and the mishandling of the razor that resulted from it.

At this stage, the best advice is to keep things simple and concentrate on as few (e.g. stropping, shaving) techniques at a time as possible.

Introducing another technique that needs to be properly learned and mastered at this stage is not likely to produce the desired results and will only add to the frustration that the OP is experiencing at this stage.


In other words, one (careful) step at a time.



B.

I think the OP has pretty much answered it himself , first time with a straight , no experience so doesn't know what the edge should be like, could have been a fine shaving edge when he got it and as many who are starting , the technique wasn't good and then his stropping didn't help

so in short stick with it and get someone to hone for you till you get the shaving and stropping down ,, eventually you,ll get there good luck tc

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

I think the OP has pretty much answered it himself , first time with a straight , no experience so doesn't know what the edge should be like, could have been a fine shaving edge when he got it and as many who are starting , the technique wasn't good and then his stropping didn't help

so in short stick with it and get someone to hone for you till you get the shaving and stropping down ,, eventually you,ll get there good luck tc

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+1 to that. No sense mucking about just get it re honed and go from there.

Bob

I sent it to my honemeister and just received feedback. He said the razor was perfectly honed and was not damaged from my stropping technique. He also did a test shave and agreed that it felt harsh and will do a few passes (for free) on a Thuringian to smooth it out. He said it cut his arm hair and passed a HHT. :shrug:

Well, so, the positive is that your honing is OK!

So, is it your prep, technique or beard? It's difficult. You say your technique is good and you shave with a Feather with no problems. Are you doing very light, short strokes; maybe an inch length for each stoke is what I do at a guess. How is your lather? is it gluggy? Too watery?

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Well, so, the positive is that your honing is OK!

So, is it your prep, technique or beard? It's difficult. You say your technique is good and you shave with a Feather with no problems. Are you doing very light, short strokes; maybe an inch length for each stoke is what I do at a guess. How is your lather? is it gluggy? Too watery?

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I feel my shave techinque is good and I have no problems with my lather. My main issues were the razor not cutting my arm hair and the HHT, but my honemeister said he had no problems with after stropping, which is confusing me no end :aargh: I'll just have to see when I get it back later on the week. I'll be getting a few other razors back at the same tme so I'll have other razors to compare with.

I have a feeling it's just me being an idiot. I didn't want to listen to the advise that face shave test>arm hair & HHT.
The razor always gave me a decent (not great) shave which 4 shaves in, is not enough time to fully adjust to the transition.
ANyway I'm glad I sent it off, my honemiester has given me detailed feedback and will smooth it out at no charge.

He said the edge has an absolute mirror finish so I have to appologise to the guys at invisible edge for doubting their competence (in fact I feel kind of foolish for having done so). They did a great job, and honed to a high standard. I would have no heistation ordering from them again the future or recommending them. But I'll probably ask them to smooth out the edge.

It is just live and learn. When you start out there are just so many variables it is difficult to sort out what is giving you the trouble. Been there and done that too. Still do it too on occasion. Always something to learn.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

It is just live and learn. When you start out there are just so many variables it is difficult to sort out what is giving you the trouble. Been there and done that too. Still do it too on occasion. Always something to learn.

Bob

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+1

This is why I am against changing too many variables and advocate keeping things as simple as possible until you can better identify what the problem areas are.


Honing, stropping, mapping one's beard growth, beard preparation, skin stretching, shaving angle, shaving pressure, are all but a few areas that a beginner needs to come to grips with.

No need to make it more complicated than necessary.



B.

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Originally Posted by BobH

It is just live and learn. When you start out there are just so many variables it is difficult to sort out what is giving you the trouble. Been there and done that too. Still do it too on occasion. Always something to learn.

Bob

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The troubles were:

The egde was very harsh- confirmed by honemeister.

Not cutting arm hair and hit and miss with HHT - which honemeiester passed just by stropping.

My shave technique with DX I would say gives me 80%BBS across the face consistantly with mostly no nicks or weepers with a professional blade, I am more than happy with my shaves. I have been lathering for DE shaving before using the DX and recently pushed a palmolive stick iinto my cella which IMO produces a ridiculously thick and slick lather.

At this point, I'm thinking my stropping method might not be up to it, though it's not damaging the blade or rolling the edge (again confirmed by honemeister)
I'm thinking maybe 20 laps on the scrub leather and 50 on the premium might not be enough?????
Maybe the carbonsong steel requires more?? I might try 30/80 or something.

End of the week (hopefully) I'll have 9 freshly honed razors in my posession including the TI

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

The troubles were:

The egde was very harsh- confirmed by honemeister.

Not cutting arm hair and hit and miss with HHT - which honemeiester passed just by stropping.

My shave technique with DX I would say gives me 80%BBS across the face consistantly with mostly no nicks or weepers with a professional blade, I am more than happy with my shaves. I have been lathering for DE shaving before using the DX and recently pushed a palmolive stick iinto my cella which IMO produces a ridiculously thick and slick lather.

At this point, I'm thinking my stropping method might not be up to it, though it's not damaging the blade or rolling the edge (again confirmed by honemeister)
I'm thinking maybe 20 laps on the scrub leather and 50 on the premium might not be enough?????
Maybe the carbonsong steel requires more?? I might try 30/80 or something.

End of the week (hopefully) I'll have 9 freshly honed razors in my posession including the TI

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Well, you've got the edge harshness solved, hopefully, but you will know for sure when you do your first shave.

Never used a DX so can't say how comparable the technique for one is vs using a straight razor. I have read on here that there is a bit of adjustment needed when transitioning from one to the other though.

I can see combining a Palmolive stick with the Cella giving one heck of a good uber lather.

Let us know how you make out in the end.

Bob

I do 30/70 (stropping) with all my razors. However, I doubt doing too little stropping would really be the problem. I've shaved without stropping at all before and i notice no difference. Of course, if one NEVER stropped the edge would rapidly degrade. Also, if you're new to stropping, stropping for a lot of strokes MAY lead to error; one can get 'sloppy' with one's technique towards the end of 70 laps if one is not careful.

Keep working on your technique; beard prep, angle, etc. It'll all come together for you soon.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Never used a DX so can't say how comparable the technique for one is vs using a straight razor. I have read on here that there is a bit of adjustment needed when transitioning from one to the other though.

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Keep working on your technique; beard prep, angle, etc. It'll all come together for you soon.

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Yeah I have to remind myself DX does not shave like SRs, will look to make adjustments in technique and angles when the razors come in. Thanks guys.

I know it's just me being impateint :gaah:

Which TI razor did you buy? I got a SS TI razor from The 'Invisible Edge' a couple of weeks ago.

Like you I find it very harsh, but it is sharp and does give a very good shave. I've polished the edge with a 12000 stone and a balsa strop and it is getting better- but not yet as good as some of my vintage razors.

I think it will get better with use and stropping- I hope!

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Originally Posted by QXDPC

Which TI razor did you buy? I got a SS TI razor from The 'Invisible Edge' a couple of weeks ago.

Like you I find it very harsh, but it is sharp and does give a very good shave. I've polished the edge with a 12000 stone and a balsa strop and it is getting better- but not yet as good as some of my vintage razors.

I think it will get better with use and stropping- I hope!

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"11/16" le grelot spartacus with rams horn scales. The box says 11/16 but I measured at 6/8s.