Is My Razor Sharp Enough?

Hi,
I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

I've sharpened my own knives for about 40 years, and can put an arm-hair-shaving edge on them, and I know that honing a razor is a little different.

1. I've been using a safety razor for the last few years, and I'm comfortable with it, and I get good shaves from it.
2. Bought a Dovo straight razor (5/8) if I remember correctly. Also bought two Naniwa Sharpening Stones (New Super Stone - not the professional). I got the 5K and 12K on recommendation from the sales person. He said my hard arkansas would be fine when the blade gets in rough shape. Also got a Chicago strop.

3. After watching a YouTube video on honing, I did 7 strokes each on both the 5K and 12K stones, then stropped 50 strokes. I tested on my arm hair. It came off clean. Tried to shave w/it, and it dragged over my beard. It was pulling a little, but it wasn't uncomfortable. At the same time, it felt like the blade was actually shaving off some whiskers (and it did get a very few). But generally, it didn't shave much off.

Obviously, I have failed to get a correct edge on the razor, so any hints please? (I'm assuming that when it's sharp enough, it will slice off the whiskers smoothly???) Is there a such thing as my beard is accustomed to the heavier safety razor, and the straight razor doesn't have enough weight behind it? Thanks in advance.

gentisle

I see that your in the USA. So am I. Drop on over and I'll help get you straightened out.

Just kidding, but if you pin your location a little bit more accurately there may be someone close by who can help out.

Sounds like the razor needs to be honed from the bevel set up. There are several youtube videos covering this, but it is far easier to teach in person. You will be in the dark if you try to learn to hone and straight shave at the same time. Not impossible, but not recommended.

Another solution would be to send the razor out to be honed, learn to shave first, then start learning to hone when the razor needs it. That way you will at least know what a sharp razor feels like.

Tell us what state you live in. That way we can possibly locate a honemeister to mentor you.

5k to 12k seems to be a pretty big jump especially with 7 laps on the 5000 scratching it up and then only 7 on the 1200 to polish. Try to find someone in your area to help.

It will work out, don't give up.

If it is a brand new Dovo with the factory edge, then it will take a lot more honing than what you have done, a whole lot more.
My best recommendation would be the send it out to be professionally honed - costs around $30, and there are honers listed in the classifieds.
This will also give you idea of the sharpness that you need to obtain when you start honing for yourself.

Since you already bought new hones - make sure that you flatten them before you sharpen a razor on them.

Mastering the Straight it hard enough with a perfect, pro honed edge...learning to hone and shave would be in the learn how to tune and play the piano by the correspondence method...snail mail version.

And I've been sharpening carbon steel tools for a long time - Straight razors seem to be as much Zen as skill, it takes some time and trial and error to teach yourself.

A pro-hone will get you jump started and a local mentor will save you time and frustration, but it is a fine motor skill that takes an investment in time. Worth it (to this crowd) but a little help can go a long way.

Good luck and smooth(er) shaving...

Try about 30 on the 5k and 20 on the 12k with very light pressure and re-test, if it's still bad it needs a bevel reset.

As others have said put your location on your profile and someone local might be able to help

Read the first 3 threads in the Honing forum and the Maintaining a Razor, Honing section in the Library.

Comfort is not a requirement for a knife. How you get there is more than you can get from a video. Second to hands on is reading, several accounts of how to get there.

You also will need magnification, 60x lighted loupe, $2 on line. You have good stones, but they must be lapped and the edges rounded or beveled. A sheet of 325 wet & dry will get you there, read the lapping section for more info. Lap them 2-3 times spinning the stone each time.

The 12k is your go to stone, it is a very aggressive stone and will do a lot more than finish. The 12k Super Stone is bulletproof.

Tape the spine with 2 layers of electrical tape, replace the tape if you burn through the first layer.

Look at the bevel from the side with magnification, looking for chips and straight down on the edge, to see how far the bevels are from meeting. With razors, you do what the edge needs. not pro forma, X amount of laps on X stone. Once you have set the bevel, (flatten the bevel, set the correct bevel angle, spine to edge and get them to meet in one plane, a sharp edge), the goal is to get the edge as straight as possible. Straighter, more comfort, sharpness is a given. You do that by removing the previous stria with each stone in the progression.


Fortunately, you did not do too many laps on the stones and you should have flatish bevels at a close to proper angle, they probably will not be meeting.

Hone on the 5k until the bevels are flat and meeting in a straight sharp edge. Look down on the edge to see if they are meeting.
Then hone on the 12k until you remove all the heavier, 5k stria and have an even stria pattern on the bevel, from the top of the bevel to the edge. Do as many laps as it takes to get the bevels to meet, chip free.

Once you have a straight edge and even stria on the bevel, strop on linen and leather, start with, 50 laps on leather. Look at the edge again, if it chips or is rolled do more laps on the 12k with light pressure until the edge is straight and chip free.

There is a lot of detail skipped in this description, you will pick that up in your reading. Here is a similar thread, with lots of good info and what a set bevel should look like.

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Originally Posted by gentisle

I've sharpened my own knives for about 40 years, and can put an arm-hair-shaving edge on them, and I know that honing a razor is a little different.

gentisle

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I would point out that we do use this test. If you can shave arm hair with no pulling or tugging without pressure then hopefully you have set the bevel. There's still a long way to go and it isn't something you're going to get first time. Send your razor to a pro and get a second cheaper decent quality razor to learn on. Good luck and any questions feel free to ask.

When I first attempted to hone a razor I watched honing videos over and over. I can not count how many times I've watched several different videos multiple times. Sometimes I still do. I'm getting better with time and can get comfortable shaves although I do still get failures depending on the type and shape of the razors. Smiling blades still gives me fits. It takes much time to learn this skill but you can do it if I can.:p


Mike

Some good advice given so far I will throw in that since your new to the SR its going to be very hard for you to tell if problems shaving are from honing or shave technique.

If you want to do the honing yourself and don't want to buy a another SR that is shave ready I would suggest getting a shavvette so you can practice shaving with a known sharp razor.

Shavettes are not a perfect correlation to SR but a lot of the skills and techniques do cross over.

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Originally Posted by eddy79

I would point out that we do use this test. If you can shave arm hair with no pulling or tugging without pressure then hopefully you have set the bevel. There's still a long way to go and it isn't something you're going to get first time. Send your razor to a pro and get a second cheaper decent quality razor to learn on. Good luck and any questions feel free to ask.

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And to clarify; most of us, when we use an "arm hair test" are "tree-topping"

Instead of shaving at the skin level we pass the razor parallel to the arm at the mid point of the hair.
I use this test often, and when there is a cloud of hair on the blade I know I'm at least close....

Shaving at the skin level on arm hair has not been a good gauge of "shave ready" for me.

Good luck, you will be there soon...

Double clarify. At skin level is bevel set and tree topping half way up hair is shave ready. Sounds like you might be closer to bevel set

bluesman7, bouschie - I updated profile so maybe someone is close and we can get together.
apipeguy - Thanks. But someone stole my 12K! A brand new stone and I had to reorder. :(
criswilson10 - actually bought it from Lynn, and he tested before sending out. You mean to tell me that brand new stones are not flat? Especially Japanese stones? I spend 2 years in Japan, and one thing they pride themselves in is the highest quality. What am I missing here?
MJC - thanks, working on getting some mentoring.
rodb - OK will do when I get the replacement 12K.
Euclid440 - thanks a lot. Yes, I noticed that the edges were rough. I was concerned about that. I can see why that would be a problem. Wow! I didn't know I had to baby those stone so much.
eddy79 - Thanks. I'm picking up that I have a lot to learn.
mglindo - thanks for the encouraging words. I'll learn it.

I think there are quite a few users by you

This is what I was thinking too. I'm only 15 shaves into shaving with straights and I was wondering if you were having technique issues.

I don't know what issues I am having. Since I'm uneducated in these ways, I don't know what is wrong.

I actually bought one of those from Sally Beauty before I got my Dovo. Have tried it, but it seems rough w/a new blade. It was a 4 day old beard.

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Originally Posted by gentisle

criswilson10 - actually bought it from Lynn, and he tested before sending out. You mean to tell me that brand new stones are not flat? Especially Japanese stones? I spend 2 years in Japan, and one thing they pride themselves in is the highest quality. What am I missing here?

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It isn't so much that brand new stones are not flat, but you do need to 1 - make sure your stone is flat because razors are particularly picky, and 2 - ensure that the surface of the stone is prepared properly (this is the big one, particularly with Synthetics). When I first got my Norton 4k/8k combination stone they felt coarse - more like a 220/600 grit stone. And performed about the same until it was lapped and smoothed out properly. It gave me fits until I saw a video (I believe from Lynn) of someone prepping one for a straight that recommended lapping a good bit of the surface off before you were down to suitably smooth and usable material.

Some hones you can get away with just lapping. My guangxi hone was particularly finicky and I couldn't get a decent edge off it until I had polished it up to 8k (Wet or dry sand paper to 2k then the rest using my Norton hones) with a finish like a ceramic tile. It will vary from hone to hone.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

It isn't so much that brand new stones are not flat, but you do need to 1 - make sure your stone is flat because razors are particularly picky, and 2 - ensure that the surface of the stone is prepared properly (this is the big one, particularly with Synthetics).

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Hey thanks, I went looking for sand paper Christmas Eve, but the store where I went didn't have anything except small sheets. I'll try a hardware store tomorrow. Hopefully, I can find some. I also bought 1000 and 8000 stones of the same name. If I can get the sandpaper tomorrow, I intend to lap all four stones (Niwana 1K 5K 8K 12K), and then try to figure out the beveling. Driving a truck around all week, I don't have much free time, so it might take me a year or two at this speed. (Ha! Ha!)

If you are going to lap with sandpaper, then it needs to be wet/dry sandpaper. Regular sandpaper will release grit that can embed into the hone, causing more trouble.

If you drive for a living, you may not want to make the effort, but you would be welcome to drive to my place in Rochester MN (250 miles down I-90) for a honing lesson. Some time with the hones and microscope should help sort you out fairly quickly.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

If you are going to lap with sandpaper, then it needs to be wet/dry sandpaper. Regular sandpaper will release grit that can embed into the hone, causing more trouble.

If you drive for a living, you may not want to make the effort, but you would be welcome to drive to my place in Rochester MN (250 miles down I-90) for a honing lesson. Some time with the hones and microscope should help sort you out fairly quickly.

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Yes, I was going to get some 400 wet/dry. Someone elsewhere on this forum suggested 3M or a good brand, but Menards only had large sheets of the rougher grits. Their 400 wet/dry was barely bigger than my stones. Hopefully, Ace H/W will have it. Thanks for offering a honing lesson. I do get to the Eastern side of MN quite often, but rarely have time to stop and get a bite to eat. I had to deliver a while back in Austin, and then over in Winona. But I'll keep you in mind.

If you're referring to the half sheet sand paper that measures about 9x3.5 inches, that's what I use to lap my hones. It's approximately the same dimensions as a lapping hone/DMT. When I do get the full size sheets I end up tearing them in half because they don't fit inside the old baking pan I use as a honing/lapping station.

The ones I was referring to didn't seem to be half sheet size - instead smaller. Anyway, I already got full size sheets. I had read a lapping thread on here that said put water on counter, then lay the sand paper down on that, then add water, draw lines on the top of the stone w/a pencil, and start lapping.

You do it on the counter if you are single.
If you are married or living with a significant other, then you do it inside an old baking pan or cookie sheet.

That's the gist of it. I use the baking pan instead of a bare counter top to contain the mess.

Sounds like I should too.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

That's the gist of it. I use the baking pan instead of a bare counter top to contain the mess.

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I lap with w&d paper, full sheets on a 1ft² granite or marble tile I got from home depot. To contain any mess, I sit a lid from one of the 30~ish gallon storage Tupperware containers we have around the house. I sit the lid on the carpet, put down some of that non-slip cabinet liner pad stuff, then the tile, then the sand paper. Because they are designed to be stackable, the lid has a slight/flattened bowl shape to it.

I hope this was helpful.

I know the smiling blade struggle well.....The short answer is "rolling x".... learning that stroke in and of itself is a feat, but not without reward. Have fun!