brushes, lather & water

I'm looking for some advice on brushes, and after browsing around on this forum, I'm pretty sure I've come to the right place.

I have a really nice silvertip brush, but have been finding that it doesn't transfer the lather to my face so well. Is it retaining too much water, or is it my technique? I've watched tons of tutorials and even though I can get a pretty decent lather in a bowl or on my hand, it just stays on the brush.

In case it matters, here's some background information: My current brush has a 22mm knot, 49mm loft. It feels great, but is pretty floppy. I've discovered that the painting technique works way better than the swirl, but I feel like it's still inefficient.

It took me a while to get a decent lather when I switched to wet shaving, and after a bit of research I realized that the water is probably a factor (it turns out I live an area with hard water at 7.5 grains), so I did some experimenting, and here are the results: With cream I can get a good lather if I use about 3x the suggested almond sized amount, but with distilled water I can get a better lather with only the suggested amount. With a soap it's pretty much impossible to get a decent lather, and I think that's partly because of the water and partly because of the brush, because even with distilled water it's tough. In all cases, the lather still doesn't get onto my face properly.

So if it's technique, I welcome any advice. If I need a new brush, suggestions are welcome (I'm thinking maybe I need a stiffer boar or pure badger brush with a thick knot, around 25mm, and maybe a shorter loft), however budget is a definite limitation.

Thanks!!
Joel

P.S. If anyone knows of places to get good shaving gear at a reasonable price in Montreal, please let me know. I'm finding all the local stores are way overpriced compared to online sellers, however I hate having to pay $10 shipping for a $20 item.

First I,m sorry it,ll be impossible without seeing the brush n hand. Second all soaps and creams can be done. Had water or not you just have to experiment and unlock it's secret. Three, the brush is probably to floppy and is holding on to the lather, and the painting strike works better.
Onto user error, your maybe soaking your brush too much and then loading it up real rough getting it deep into the brush, try just wetting the tips and then just load it lightly on the tips only. Or try face layering adding a little water at a time till it's right. My friend it could be a lot of things unfortunantly. But my tastes would say get rid of the floppy brush and get something with a backbone. Tc

Others are more expert than I am on brushes but I've found that painting is fine, and you can then follow up with swirls on your face to whip it up. A poll was done once here about who lathered what way, and it was interesting to read what different folks do. Some paint, some swirl, some face lather, some palm lather, some bowl lather, some scuttle hot, some cold lather....I've shaved with bar soap using my fingers....so I'd say work on it, experimenting some. A different brush might help, but I have 8 or 9 very different ones, and they all get used and work, depending on the soap and your patience.

It sounds to me like the brush loft is set to high for how you would like to lather. Loft is how high the tips of the bristles or hairs are above the top of the handle. The deeper the knot is set the lower the loft and the stiffer the brush, also expressed as backbone. I face lather and like brushes to have a lot of backbone. Depending on what the handle is made from it may not be a big deal to reset it. I feel your pain on shipping but it is a factor of my life that cannot be avoided.

Floppy brushes can take some time to learn. I don't soak mine, I just dampen the tip and swirl lightly on the soap.

You should be able to find a VDH (van der Hagen) in the local drug stores for less than $20. The boar brush in the set is usually pretty good after you break it in.

I have a similar problem... The lather in the bawl is good, and on the first pass it transfers to my face rich and thick.. But from the second pass - I get this thin, weak lather that dries off in 2 minutes... Frustrating, really...

Typical loft to knot size ratio is 2:1, so your knot should have been set at 44 mm tops. That being said, the knot quality matters in production of lather.
Your knot could very well be not stuffed enough to pick up enough soap to lather well and produce enough lather for 3 passes. What brand is your brush?

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Originally Posted by Haim

I have a similar problem... The lather in the bawl is good, and on the first pass it transfers to my face rich and thick.. But from the second pass - I get this thin, weak lather that dries off in 2 minutes... Frustrating, really...

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You may have issues with the soap, what are you using?

I to had the toughest time building a good lather. I thought I'd never get it right. I have a boar and boy it take a long time for that bit*h to break in. but all is good now. at first it seemed I was not using enough water no matter how much I tried to keep it all on there and now I can't shake off enough. suds everywhere baby!

Here's a good video to watch by geo. Had similar questions to yours and this helped me a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf_6BIuPCro

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

Floppy brushes can take some time to learn. I don't soak mine, I just dampen the tip and swirl lightly on the soap.

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That's an interesting suggestion, I'll give that a try!

Following this thread, as I have also been struggling to get good lather. I've tried a few things, and I always seem to end up with a thin lather that dries very fast. It feels like I'm not transferring enough onto the face, as my brush also seems to have plenty of soap left in it when I clean it. I'm going to try a few of the new suggestions I've seen here and see if it helps.

Thanks everyone!

I tried this today, I didn't find it made a lot of difference, but I'll give it a few more tries to see if anything changes.

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Originally Posted by joelkerr

I tried this today, I didn't find it made a lot of difference, but I'll give it a few more tries to see if anything changes.

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Might be time for a new brush or even better, why not try to hook up with a meeting or one on one help from one of our members up your way? Could fix your problem in just a few minutes. Tc

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Might be time for a new brush or even better, why not try to hook up with a meeting or one on one help from one of our members up your way? Could fix your problem in just a few minutes.

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Yeah, I think you're right. I just bought a new, stiffer brush with (supposedly) a good backbone, we'll see how that goes.

I'd definitely be interested in meeting up with anyone in Montreal willing to give me a few pointers.

Private message Badgister. He is in Montreal and has a reputation for being a great mentor. He is also very good at honing. He has not been around much so PM him, I'm sure he will respond.

A quality brush with a good dense packing, loft to diameter, all vital aspects.

It's just soap, so don't be afraid to really load the brush - a good 30-45 seconds of loading should be required for a three pass shave.

I use a scuttle, which allows me to control the water, and allow the soap to develop.

Try a good glycerin based soap - the Truefitt and Hill creams, like Trafalgar, Grafton etc., are high quality soaps that's lather effortlessly.

But a good quality brush is essential, Simpson, Thater, Plusson, Rooney, all quality brushes that are well worth the investment.

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Originally Posted by BlueJazz777

I have also been struggling to get good lather.

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If your lather is really frothy at first, but dries out fast, you probably need more water and more loading.
I have found that some soaps respond better if left a couple minutes. They later get creamier.
Just a suggestion
Mike

Thanks everybody for their input, it's been really informative.

A few weeks ago I bought a stiffer brush (Semogue 1305 if you're interested, boar bristles). It's taken a while to get worked in, but it's starting to produce really nice lather. It still doesn't lather as well as my silvertip, but the application is way better. Hopefully the Semogue will continue to develop, too.

As a side note, I started using a shavette in order to practise for when I can afford a good straight razor, and wow! What a difference! I can get such a close shave, it's impressive. I thought it was a big difference when I moved to a DE, but the shavette is a whole new world. I can't wait till I get a real razor. But anyways, I feel like having a good lather is now imperative, so I'm working it out.