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Hi i keep seeing members refer to keen and sharp. As to SR what is the difference between the two? Looking up the definition according to a dictionary they seem to mean the same thing but on here the terms seem to be used to mean something different.
Thanks
Mack
To me they are one in the same ie: the actual micron width of the very edge or Fin
Now smooth is a whole different aspect and when people confuse the two is when the arguments start :p
Basically the statement "The edge was too sharp/keen" is a misnomer :D but try and explain that
Smooth is what I look for. I have had edges that while shaving, feel like they are doing nothing, but the end result is amazing. The razor feels almost like a round rod rubbing on my face, no sensation of cutting hair, but shaves everything off. Just wish I could get all my razors to perform like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Here is a perfect example of the convoluted story of Sharp vs Smooth :)
http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...us-smooth.html
Given the numerous times I have read here that you should be able to shave comfortably off an 8k edge or even 4k edge, and since the bevel is set at the 1k, you should be able to shave after that as well; what is your opinion on what makes an edge smooth? Just the polishing and refinement of that sharpness? To me, comfortably and the truly smooth feeling that I have had at times are different. I know back in the day barbers did not have the 16k, 20k, 30k stones to polish with, just barber hones which I have read are anywhere from 4-8k approx. The times I have achieved what I consider to be the ultimate smoothness has been with either 8k, or finished on a cnat and/or paste. I know I have improved in honing over the few years I have been doing it, but early on, I "accidentally" got that smooth result I desire, now I am finding it more consistency....well, most of the time anyways. Eventually I will get it every time. I hope. Maybe I will improve my consistency with a higher grit stone? H.A.D.!!!!!!!! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I have always though of Keen, a Finely Sharpened, as defined, “as an edge; so shaped as to cut or pierce substances readily.” To me a keen edge is a sharp edge, taken to a higher level.
I would say that a 1k edge is sharp and an 8k edge is keen.
I would also say, a coticule edge is smooth, where a SG20 or Ark edge is keen.
“What is your opinion on what makes an edge smooth?”
Smoothness and even keenness, results from straightening the edge. If you look at edges under magnification you will see the edge does not get truly straight until after 8k grit. Up till then it is somewhat chippy, uneven.
The unevenness, comes from the lands and grooves of stria, the shallower we can make the lands and grooves, the straighter the edge.
“I know back in the day barbers did not have the 16k, 20k, 30k stones to polish with, just barber hones which I have read are anywhere from 4-8k approx.”
Fine high grit naturals have been around for hundreds of year and fine stones were always prized, hunted, collected and traded.
Paste also have been used for hundreds of years and were much more popular a hundred years ago, more than they are now. Fortunes were made selling paste. .5um, Chromium Oxide, which we still use today is about 30k grit equivalent.
The key to a consistent keen/ smooth edge is fully setting the bevel. Often when guys hit and miss it is because the bevel is very close to meeting and they move up in grits, sometimes they get lucky, and the edge comes together in the higher grits. But if you ensure the bevel is fully set in the low grits, you will always polish to a fine shaving edge.
You cannot polish an edge, that does not exist. I am always amazed at edges, that guys will shave with.
Thank you to everyone who responded. I think I now have a better understanding. Just joined the forum this month but have been lurking here for a while taking in the information and have watched many of the Utube vids by some of the posters here which have helped me a ton. I love shaving with the SR's I have and that could not have happened with out the information the SR community has generously put out there.
Mack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chugach68
The biggest issue is that most people don't realize the scope of the numbers here
First try the 1k shave test, it has been done many times by many people, a good solid bevel set at 1k with just 20 laps on leather will very much surprise you with the ability it has to shave well.. By learning what the razor is doing not only at the bevel set but at each stage of honing will open yours eyes more then hours of reading and typing here :D plus it is much more fun ..
Nothing will improve your honing more then working on the Bevel set, for more years then most have been on SRP I have kept hammering at the same thing and saying the same thing
90% of honing is done at the bevel set
The other problem is that people tend to think one dimensionallly and only concern themselves with the idea of "Sharp/Keen" or the actual width of the edge (believed to be about .50~ - .32` per Vorhaven)
They don't understand that the evenness of the edge is in play also and actually contributes more to the comfort then the sharpness, think about a serrated knife blade it is also VERY Sharp/Keen yet would not be conducive to a smooth feel on the face, the edge of a razor is the same it has to be not only sharp but also even..
The actual bevel also comes into play as the smoother that is, the less striations that reach into the edge are there, which means a more even smooth edge..
The worst thing we continue to do here is the whole Sharp vs Smooth argument :( it is Sharp & Smooth they are part of the same equation not at odds to each other..
But people continue to fuel it,
We have quite a few myths that really need to die in this hobby :(
So far the only one I think we have stabbed in the heart, is the one that many of you newer guys have never heard :)
At one time the thought of "Over Honing" was actually used instead of the thought of "The bevel isn't set"
We killed that one finally after a few years
When a new honer used to say
"I tried honing my razor and followed all the info here on the forum but I just could not get it to shave it tugged badly"
Pre 2008 the answer here and on B&B was a standard "You probably over honed it"
Finally after many tests and points proved by setting the bevel for new honers and sending the razors back for them to successfully finish that changed to what you read now
Post 2008 "The bevel probably isn't set you need to make sure the bevel is totally set or everything else is a waste of time"
These myths seem to take forever to get rid of but we can keep trying :)
Hone On
I want to emphasize the shaving at the 1k level. Also, Glen, on another thread spoke of the challenge to start at 1K, shave and repeat going up the grit levels. I am far from a proficient honer. I can hone my own and get damn good shaves from them ONLY because I did that experiment and discovered what it takes to get a shaveable edge. I now only use the 1K when necessary to start fresh on an edge. 4K help to reset an edge, as far as my experience goes, and then 8K and 12K. Higher grits give smoother results but I'm still exploring the possibilities at the 12 K level.