Do I need a specific type of whetstone to hone my razor?

OK, long story long (sorry, I do that haha)
Some years ago, I bought from a seller here a razor that said "Shave ready". I tried it and well, it wasn't shave ready (or at least I think it wasn't. I compared it to my green Astra blades and also did the hair test and well... not shave ready in my opinion) So I decided to take things in my hands and bought a whetstone. Since I was on a budget, I got my hands on an inexpensive stone with a 10K or 12K grit (I can't remember) and, as you can imagine, all I managed to do was to tickle the razor to the point you could actually hear her giggling.

I tried and tried and tried without success so I decided to stick to my DE and abandon the SR scene. A couple of years later I was on a hardware store and found a norton 1500 sandpaper... I decided to try again and, against all odds, I got much better results. Still not shave ready (at all) but WAY more usable than before. I even managed to fix a dent the blade had... but still, not shave ready.

I recently found an article here teaching how I can hone and make shave ready a razor with a 1500 sandpaper and I found where my errors were so I decided to try again, but then a thought hit me: what if I search on ebay a whetstone. ¿Maybe they're cheaper this time? So I did and found this one:
3000/8000 Kitchen Knife Grit Sharpener Sharpening Water Stone Dual Whetstone | eBay

But... is not what I've seen advertised here on the forums. Also, it's made of Corundum and it says "kitchen knife" so it got me thinking: ¿Do I need a specific brand of 4K/8K stone or does any 4K/8K stone works the same?

The reason I want to sharpen it is because

1. I want to learn how to do it because noone in my country can do it
2. The expenses to send it to an expert would be too high for me (Honduras -> USA -> Honduras)
3. The blade is already collecting dust, it's better if I give it some use eve if it's as practice

So... should I go with the 1500 sand paper route or get the whetstone I linked?

It might work, and it might not. Some people have had success with off-brand knife hones and others did not. Some of the latter only figured out that the hone was at fault after they bought another hone. I know that I'm being vague but I cannot be otherwise because I have not tried that specific hone. I do know that some knife hones, even though they claim to have an appropriate size of grit, will not work for razors.

If you buy that hone you may get lucky and you may not.

The added problem is that you do not yet know how to hone, so adding questionable equipment is going to complicate things a lot more for you and we will be of little assistance helping you sort it out because we won't be familiar with that hone.

Because you are re-visiting this several years after trying the first time, I'd like to see you succeed this time.

Do you have any access to magnification, such as a loupe or microscope? Anything in the range of 20-60x will be helpful for you learning how to use whatever hone you buy.

Do you have a particular budget in mind? If you would be willing to spend the money, a Naniwa SuperStone or Specialty 12k would be your best single option. Other standards are the Norton 4k/8k combo hone, and yes, you can shave off of an 8k. If you want really cheap, then a decent barber hone off of eBay can be a perfectly good option as well. That is, as long as you buy one of the many better ones that are available. We can help you sort through all the barber hone options.

Another cheap option is lapping film, though I've not seen many beginners succeed with it.

If you stick around this thread we will help you sort this out!

Compa

Considering the difficulty of sending your razor out for honing, I understand why you would want to hone the razor yourself. There is a learning curve, but with time you can master it.

You can use silicon carbide wet or dry sandpaper to set the bevel on a razor as long as you have a flat surface as backing. Here in the states, automotive supply stores sell such sandpaper all the way up to 2500 grit. You need something like glass, polished marble, or polished granite as a suitable backing. You wet the sandpaper back and front and stick it on the flat backing. Keep the sandpaper wet as you hone.

While setting the bevel is a critical part of honing a razor, it is only part of the process. From there you need to move to finer grits. About the lowest grit level that people recommend for shaving is 8000 grit and many people hone finish well above that level.

While an inexpensive Chinese made hone like the one you mentioned may work, most of the experienced members on SRP discourage their use. They may be of inconsistent grit size, porosity, hardness, etc. All of these factors complicate the honing process. The Chinese hones are designed primarily for use on knives, not razors. However, if that is the best you can afford, then purchase one and make the best of it.

The stones generally recommended on SRP are the Norton 4000/8000 combo stone and the Naniwa and Shapton stones. If you go with the Norton combo, you can use 1000 grit sandpaper to set the bevel as noted above. The 4000 grit side of the Norton is a little too fine for setting the bevel unless the bevel is in good condition to start with. All the stones from the "big three" manufacturers are of good quality, but they are a lot more expensive than the Chinese synthetic hones. If you can afford to purchase quality hones, then do so; you will not be disappointed.

Another advantage of purchasing hones from these three companies is that lots of members on SRP use them and can give you excellent advice on how to use them effectively.

One moderately priced hone used by many of the members here is the King 1000/6000 combo hone. You use the 1000 side to set the bevel and the 6000 side to remove the scratch marks from the 1000 stone. You still need a higher grit finishing hone; you are unlikely to be satisfied with the edge off a 6K stone.

If you still have you 10K-12K hone, it may make a nice finishing hone. One reasonably priced finishing stone is the Chinese Guangxi river stone. This stone goes by several names such as Chinese 12K (C12K), Chinese Natural (CNAT), or People's Hone of Indeterminite Grit (PHIG). It is certainly not the best finishing hone available, but it is one of the least expensive finishing hones. All natural stones vary in quality, so some are better than others. If you get a good one, it will produce a nice edge. The CNATs tend to be rather slow, so you will need some patience. Many people get the CNAT as their first finisher and then try other finishers later on.

When getting a new hone, the chances are that it will not be flat. You can use your sandpaper and backing to lap (flatten) a new hone. Start with 220 grit or 320 and then go finer as the stone gets close to flat. You can use a pencil to mark the surface of the stone. Keep lapping until most, if not all, of the pencil marks are removed.

If you have decent Internet access, there are some great YouTube videos on lapping new stone and honing razors. If you cannot download videos, there is plenty of good information on the forum.

Once you get a razor sharp, you need a strop to maintain the edge. You can purchase a strop, or you can make your own from cloth or leather. Again, you can find lots of good information on the forum.

Thank you very much!
I think I will stay away from the stone for the reasons you explained.

Sadly, my budget is quite tight (that's why I considered the 1500grit sandpaper) a norton 4000/8000 stone is probably twice-trice of what I can spend.
I have not heard about the barber stones before and they look interesting... and less expensive :)
I would say my budget is 40$ top. It's really low I know ...

I want to salvage that straight because I really really want to shave with straight razors, not that I don't enjoy the DE shaves, it's just that I want to shave with SR too :) so I'm all ears.
Should I search ebay for a barber hone, should I search the SRP trade section?

Thank you for your support! :D

**EDIT**
Awesome info Ray
I do still have my 12K grit stone. It's flat (that I made sure of hehe) but it is too silky soft to build a new edge or do more than polish what bevel blade already has.
The king combi looks really tempting. it is in my budget!
I will consider it and see what other info appears here. I'm getting excited again :)

OK, what is your 12k hone?

Let's start with that and see if we can't get you a shaving edge off of that.

It's been longer than I thought (prolly 7 years since I bought it -__-) Couldn't find the stone in my eBay purchase history nor in my mails :/ but doing a quick "Natural 12K grit" threw results that helped me search for a similar stone.
It looks a lot like this one: Sharpening, natural whetstone 12k grit size, about 3x8 in. World's best. | eBay
The size is that of a standard sharpening stone (I bought a coarse one for other kind of jobs) and the stone does have a nice dark gray.
I can't really say it's that one but I am pretty sure it's a Chinese stone (and the Guangxi name rings a bell)

I made sure to flatten it properly (at least that's what I remember) I used the pencil technique and after a few minutes of rubbing it against a 800 grit wet sandpaper, all the lines were gone the stone kept the smoothness but this time it was flat.

I hope this info helps you help me :P I am confident that stone is trustworthy since I managed to get my hands on a decent magnifier and after some passes (back when I tried to fix the blade) I checked it with the magnifier and the bevel was really shiny and looked smooth... but the blade was not sharp enough.

IF your 12K is one of these:

Attachment 260087

That's a Guangxi/Chinese 12K stone. It usually comes with a rubbing stone made of the same material. The stone is pretty slow, very fine, and very hard, but also most of what you need. There are a few ways to go about honing with just that and maybe a handful of inexpensive rubbing stones to help polish the edge.

Edit - I see that's exactly what you've got. The route I typically use one-stone honing with this fellow is to set the bevel, your sand paper should work for that. Then I'll use a piece of coticule, doesn't have to be big, to make a slurry on top of the stone. I do a few dilutions, until I'm almost on pure water. Then I switch over to the rubbing stone that came with my Guangxi and make a medium slurry with that. I'll dilute that mix until I'm almost honing on pure water, then wash the stone and do a good number of passes on pure water.

It did come with a small stone.
I am pretty sure that's the one. The color is the same :)

It is a tough spot for you. I do not know of members is your area. It is a really tough go to learn to hone, strop, and shave all at the same time. It can be done but it will not be easy. I live a long way from the end of the road and learned to hone much earlier that is recommended. I did start with a shave ready razor and did get it honed once and bought a second shave ready razor, but that was it for a while. I did use the recommended brands, just to be certain that it was all about my skills and not about the hones, oh and I used quality razors in premium condition and did not kill any razors. I imagine shipping honing back and forth to you would carry a crazy price tag and take forever and a day. Tape the spine on your blades. Use good hones and good razors. Watch one video presenter. It can be done. It won't be easy though.

At a $40 max

Get the King 1/6

That will get you going , then your 12k if it is what we think will pull it together

Strop and shave

Although the Kings are slow they are solid performers ..
Use the sandpaper on a flat surface to true /lap the hone use the flat hone on your razor

Here is where these questions go sideways

If you ask "what is the least I can use" we can't answer as you have never honed a razor, I can answer for me but not you

Yes I could take a 1/6 and a Chinese "12k" and get a perfectly good shaving edge but I have honed a few razors :p


ps: The very thought of using Sandpaper to set the bevel on a SR sets my teeth on edge like fingernails on a chalkboard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

At a $40 max

Get the King 1/6 .........

ps: The very thought of using Sandpaper to set the bevel on a SR sets my teeth on edge like fingernails on a chalkboard

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If you get get P2500 grit SiC wet/dry sandpaper, it is similar to a 2000 grit Japanese stone, but because the SiC is a different than the AlOx in most Japanese stones, the scratch pattern may be different. For someone who can afford a Japanese stone, I certainly recommend that; but for someone on a tight budget, high grit SiC could work for bevel setting.

I'd like to add IMO that comparing a straight to a De blade is not apples to apples. You are comparing apples and oranges really. To say a straight is not shave ready you need to know one that is and one that is not. Just my 2 cents I wish you all the luck on your journey :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

ps: The very thought of using Sandpaper to set the bevel on a SR sets my teeth on edge like fingernails on a chalkboard

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I'm prone to agree, but I have no idea what he has access to in Honduras. I was in 'do what you can with what you have to do it with' mode.

That said, no idea why the rather cost effective King 1/6 didn't cross my mind...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

I'm prone to agree, but I have no idea what he has access to in Honduras. I was in 'do what you can with what you have to do it with' mode.

That said, no idea why the rather cost effective King 1/6 didn't cross my mind...

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I found the King for as low as $28 with free shipping, but I doubt that free shipping will apply to Honduras so he has to search it out..

They are a pretty common Knife stone and even Tool stone, I actually found a 1k in our Co-Op in the Boonies for $15

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ejmolitor37

I'd like to add IMO that comparing a straight to a De blade is not apples to apples. You are comparing apples and oranges really. To say a straight is not shave ready you need to know one that is and one that is not. Just my 2 cents I wish you all the luck on your journey :)

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Yeah, I've heard there is a difference. I was just comparing the experience because I assume a shave ready razor is really smooth. I can't deny tho that my technique with SR is VERY sloppy so that definitely has an effect on how I might think a "shave ready" razor is. Specially if I haven't seen a shave ready SR

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

I'm prone to agree, but I have no idea what he has access to in Honduras. I was in 'do what you can with what you have to do it with' mode.
That said, no idea why the rather cost effective King 1/6 didn't cross my mind...

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Yep, Honduras is a country that sells whatever is en vogue, we have the latest turbo ultra jetson supersonic mach 3, but you can't find a DE blade, DE razor, shavette, SR, strops or stones. The smallest grit I've found is a 1000k at DoIt Center and the package had an axe on it haha

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I found the King for as low as $28 with free shipping, but I doubt that free shipping will apply to Honduras so he has to search it out..
They are a pretty common Knife stone and even Tool stone, I actually found a 1k in our Co-Op in the Boonies for $15

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I think I will get one of those. There is no free shipping to Honduras but a company can bring me packages from the united states for 6$ per lb.

All this said, I think it's fair to update you all
Before the forum went down, I honed the SR on my "12K" stone (We're assuming it's a 12k stone) I had no electric tape at hand so I used a couple of transparent tapes segments stacked one on top of another in order to simulate the thickness of the electric tape.
I think I did around 120 laps on every side. I shaved the next day and the experience was interesting, smoother than ever before but not smoother than with my derby blades (I know, SR != DE) Still, it was the best attempt I have ever had with this razor.

I decided to see what had changed at bevel level (Using an improvised magnifier... I KNOW! I should get proper tools) and found that the 12K stone had, in fact, improved the bevel... but the tape had been too much and it was a micro-bevel within the bevel. And the one made by the 12K stone was REALLY thin. I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear :( I hope I am.

Anyways, Since the forums were down and I was deep in the learning process, I went to... you know... get myself a micro mesh 3M sandpaper... *FlameShield on* and followed the instructions found on a thread in this forums. I agree it's a technique that should be done only by advanced users BUT it was a really enlightening experience.
This are the things I learned
1. The electric tape is not only used to protect the spine, it serves as a medium to set the bevel. The more tape, the broader the angle (and probably the less useful it will be). I also could notice that, before moving to the 12k stone, the tape was worn a little.
2. This kind of sandpaper is quite good to polish the metal (obviously)
3. This is (on a different scale) the same process as using a 2K stone, is not meant to sharp the blade but to work on a new bevel. I now understand the use of lower grit stones.

After a some laps (done with as little pressure as possible and with a stropping motion) I noticed a stain that was in the bevel was gone, so I moved to the 12K stone not before replaing the tape.
At this point, I had not noticed the effect of the tape on the bevel so I just replaced the tape and then started to sharpen just like the day before.
This time, a micro bevel was still there but it was much better because the difference between the worn tape and the new tape was minimal (but still there) so I suppose it's better to keep using the same tape as you move between grits in order to keep the bevel level (even if the tape worns).

Today I will test the results (yesterday I had no beard at all since I shaved that day) and I will decide if I should do some more laps or not... you know, just to keep practicing. The king stone is now a must and I will probably not touch the blade again until the stone arrives.
All in all, this has been a very interesting experience. I am the only person I know in my country who wetshaves (Besides the owner of the company I work for and he won't hone my blades... heck I think he prolly buys a new blade just as I buy new DEs), that does not mean I am the only one but one thing is certain: I can't rely on having someone else honing my blade (or blades if I ever get more) so the best I can do for now is to work on my skills, equip myself better and share my experiences in order to improve my techniques (not only the honing ones but also the shaving ones) and be ready for when I finally get another blade or when I finally meet another wetshaver from Honduras in need of help.

Well, if you got the bevel fully set most it should need is laps on the 12k until it stops improving. It's a pretty slow stone. When using it to finish off an 8K stone I'll do 100 laps on pure water, and another 100 on a thin shave lather.

If I were coming off the sand paper equivalent of a 2k home, I'd probably make as thick a slurry as I could with the rubbing stone and work the edge while diluting to polish away the 2k stria.

You mentioned that you noticed that the tape had worn a little. As that happens, the spine gets closer to the hone and the edge lifts away from the hone. To prevent this, you need to occasionally replace the tape to make sure that the edge is contacting the hone.

Thank you all for the advises and sorry for the lte update.
As you might expect, sandstone + stone had unsatisfactory results. I had a little hope that this would be not the case, but I knew it was a fool's hope.

Now, today I was on a local store and found a japanese 6k stone. Pricewise is the same as the King but I do not have to pay for the importing and I don't have to wait for a month... But I don't want to jump into the water just because it says "6000 japan"

Have any of you have any info about the Suehiro sharpening stones? Specifically, this one:
Suehiro 6000 Grit Sharpener Knife Hone Sharpening Japanese Waterstone Whetstone | eBay

why not just send it to a pro and learn to shave right,,, then you,ll know Tc

I've got a good 1k/6k lapped King that I am willing to donate if that is an option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

why not just send it to a pro and learn to shave right,,, then you,ll know Tc

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There is the issue of me living in Honduras hehe. Sending it over to the USA is a real pain in the bottom :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

I've got a good 1k/6k lapped King that I am willing to donate if that is an option.

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That would be awesome. Maybe we can get to an agreement because I feel kinda bad taking the stone for free. I will contact you via PM so that we can discuss everything n__n

As it seems that you have played around with the edge enough to start again from scratch, I agree with gssixgun's suggestion to start out with a King 1k/6k to rewrite things. Personally, I prefer the Suehiro 1k/6k combo to the King combo, but both will get the job done. There is also the Imanishi 1k/6k combo, but I've not tried this. As you are in Honduras, you may have access to the Suehiro, which is a bit difficult to obtain here in the USA, but my sense is that any of these three will get you there at the starting out, grunt level. Beyond this, I would suggest a Solingen-made, hanging linen strop, one side pasted with the Solingen red paste tube and the other with the Solingen white tube paste. Off the 6k, ~8-10 laps on the red pasted linen will get you there at the start prior to leather, with occasional ~30 laps on the white-pasted side as needed later for touch-ups before leather, all of this being predicated on the assumption that your game has been right on the 1k/6k beforehand. Good luck.

Well, looks like the King and a little extra surprise are on their way to you, lets just hope you get them...
:beer1:

Thank you good sir!
Can't wait to put my hands on it. Usually items sent from the US take between 15 to 21 days so I have quite some time to watch videos :D
And the little extra surprise makes everything all the more exciting :metal:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

IF your 12K is one of these:

Attachment 260087

That's a Guangxi/Chinese 12K stone. It usually comes with a rubbing stone made of the same material. The stone is pretty slow, very fine, and very hard, but also most of what you need. There are a few ways to go about honing with just that and maybe a handful of inexpensive rubbing stones to help polish the edge.

Edit - I see that's exactly what you've got. The route I typically use one-stone honing with this fellow is to set the bevel, your sand paper should work for that. Then I'll use a piece of coticule, doesn't have to be big, to make a slurry on top of the stone. I do a few dilutions, until I'm almost on pure water. Then I switch over to the rubbing stone that came with my Guangxi and make a medium slurry with that. I'll dilute that mix until I'm almost honing on pure water, then wash the stone and do a good number of passes on pure water.

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I have a similar stone, and there's one more thing you can do with it to go from a good to a super fine edge: you can use the slurry as strop paste. It actually has improved on edges I got from SRD. This only works if you have managed to get a very decent honing done first (which is the part that I find difficult). After I used the slurry from my Chinese stone as paste the razors pop hairs in mid air like crazy.

The items finally arrived :D
The king stone (ready to hone!) aaaaaaaand dun dun duuuuuuuuuuun...a shave-ready razor! :rock:
I decided to take it for a test drive and shave with it.
In order to have a more accurate comparisson, I shaved half my face with my razor and the other half with the razor Peter gave me. There was a difference, oh yes! My razor shaves, but is not quite there yet compared to Peter's razor.

I will post photos as soon as I can.
Thank you Peter, your help is much appreciated!
Time to re-watch those "how to hone" videos!

That's awesome! Good luck with the new hone.

What a difference it is to have a "reference razor"
After using Peter's razor, I picked up my Invicta razor and the stone he gave to me. Did around 30 strokes on the 6K side and other 60 on the 12K, X strokes on the pad strop and what a difference! The razor shaves, and it's quite good at it! My guess is that the bevel and the edge could have been taken to this state even using the 12K stone but I would have probably need a lot more strokes than 60.

I am used to my Merkur HD and Derby blades, they provide the smoothest shave for me... until Peter's razor arrived. Now I have 3 shaving tools that perform awesomely. My only regret is not having a beard that grows fast enough to shave it daily haha.
I will now have a proper rotation with 2 SR and 1 DE

Thank you Peter!
Photos coming soon!

Photos!
Attachment 265895Attachment 265896Attachment 265897Attachment 265898Attachment 265899