keeping the blade sharp

How long are you guys able to keep the razor sharp between honings? I am only able to have it sharp 3-6 times after honing the blade.

I have a 3" wide strop, and i strop the blade on each side roughly 50-100 times each. Anytime between 3-6 shaves later the blade is so dull that i cant bear it and i give up and hone it with my 12K stone. Afterwords the shave is smooth and great. But the cycle repeats itself as it should, i just dont recall it being so short periods for experts here. I have razors i was given from various users from this community a few years ago. So they are good quality USA/Germany metal.

I recall users saying they went anywhere from 6-12 months between honings. So i must be doing something wrong.

Is there anything wrong with honing the blade every 3-6 shaves since i have a good quality stone?

PS ive watched all the videos you guys advise to watch with honing a blade, proper stropping and shaving techniques.

Are you stropping before every shave?

Sent from my phone using some app

yes i strop 50-100 each side before every shave.

Well there are a few places where that can go wrong. The first thing that comes to mind is your stropping. If your technique is poor it will degrade the edge quite quickly. The other of course is your honing. Is you push your edge too far it will break quite quickly. Also if your bevel is not completely set you will never get a shave from it. I would expect you would get the most mileage from a meet up with a senior member or to attend a meet. I do not know of any up coming meets.

I usually find if a razor isn't going to shave due to poor honing, it'll be pretty immediate. Either the first shave will be bad, or the second terrible.

I had this issue myself, I could put a pretty decent edge on a razor, but I was screwing it all up with my stropping. I'd say you're probably in need of stropping practice.

For me it was primarily a pressure issue. Too much tension on the strop, too much pressure on the blade. Loosening the tension a bit and letting the weight of the blade do the work, like with every other phase, seemed to get me where I wanted to be. You'll find your edges lasting longer and longer as you tune your technique. I started getting 5-10 shaves before needing to re-hone, then upwards of a month. Right now I'd say my edges probably last 2 or 3 months on just linen and leather.

The only negative from honing so often is wear on the blade. Every time you use a hone metal is being removed. So the longer you can keep it tuned with a strop, the better off you are.

Let's make an assumption that your honing is good - Yes i know :)

There are basically 3 stages of stropping that we all have to go through

#1 Do no harm - where you learn the basic moves that allow you to not wreck the Honed edge

#2 Doing no harm - This is the stage where you have now manged to strop the edge without wrecking it but you haven't made it to the next stage off helping the edge

#3 Maintaining the edge - This is the final stage where you are confident enough to learn the pressuer and tension variations that actually allow you to improve the edge on the strop and maintain the edge for months if not longer



Glen, typing from Elmira Idaho :p

First, look at the edge with magnification, looking for chips or rolled uneven edge.

Your experience is not uncommon. It takes a while to master the stropping skill. Unfortunately, once the edge is damaged, honing is often the only way to restore the edge.

What need to be done, depends on the damage.

When stropping, keep the razor flat on the strop, use light pressure and do not lift the spine off the strop, stop then flip with the spine on the strop.

Too much pressure or lifting the spine are the most common stropping issues.

Look at the edge with magnification and find a local mentor to coach you. As you master the stropping skill, your edges and shaves will get better. Go slow and do not try to emulate the wild, fast stropping videos on line.

What brand of razor and strop do you have? Chinese razors will take an edge but it typically won't last as long and some vintage blades will have edges that crumble easily and are hard to keep going until you remove some old steel and reset the bevel

It is very easy to put too much pressure on the razor and the strop. It takes more concentration to let the razor do the work on a strop that isn't guitar string tight, or at least that's my experience. Do you have a pasted strop? 20 or so passes on that every 10 shaves may help, then strop on the leather after cleaning the blade on the unpasted side. It might be to your advantage to send the razor to one of the several honemeisters on this site so the bevel is properly set, and the edge is not over or under honed. Just my $.02

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Let's make an assumption that your honing is good - Yes i know :)

There are basically 3 stages of stropping that we all have to go through

#1 Do no harm - where you learn the basic moves that allow you to not wreck the Honed edge

#2 Doing no harm - This is the stage where you have now manged to strop the edge without wrecking it but you haven't made it to the next stage off helping the edge

#3 Maintaining the edge - This is the final stage where you are confident enough to learn the pressuer and tension variations that actually allow you to improve the edge on the strop and maintain the edge for months if not longer



Glen, typing from Elmira Idaho :p

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Then i feel like i am at #2. I can sometimes put myself back at #1 by trying to get up to #3 ....if that makes sense.

i think i got to the point where i feel like im not doing anything when stropping. If i do it the way i should, it doesnt feel like it does anything.

For others: Its a Gold Seal USA/Germany razor, and not a pasted strop due to having a stone. How much magnification do you need to look at a razors edge? not sure if i have anything. I think im doing OK with honing because the blade is great after the stone for numerous shaves. i always feel worried stropping is going to ruin the edge made by the stone.

Neat, but how do you determine that. Forty years of doing this ignorantly, a learning process and the beginning was hell, and I guess I still must not have the knack. I strop every third shave and I spend only 30 strokes linen and leather. If the shave is not working at that point I return to the strop for another 10 to 20 strokes each. I use multiple razors so my honing times is measured in many months. Some razors cut better than others and I have not been able to overcome the lazy razor (possibly the metal content). But, your descriptor could use a bit more clarification to those of us who tend to be a bit ignorant to the art.

My go to is a 30x jeweler's loupe. Costs like 3 bucks on amazon. Having more helps in the beginning when you're just starting to get an idea what you're looking at, but isn't necessary.

My experience is much like yours. I have a fast growing, tough beard that quickly dulls an edge. If I shave with a DE, I can only get a couple of three-pass shaves before the blade begins to tug, even with a Feather blade.

When using a straight, I like using paddle strops with 0.5 and 0.25 micron CBN pastes every couple of shaves to keep the edge sharp.

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Originally Posted by metulburr

Then i feel like i am at #2. I can sometimes put myself back at #1 by trying to get up to #3 ....if that makes sense.

i think i got to the point where i feel like im not doing anything when stropping. If i do it the way i should, it doesnt feel like it does anything.

For others: Its a Gold Seal USA/Germany razor, and not a pasted strop due to having a stone. How much magnification do you need to look at a razors edge? not sure if i have anything. I think im doing OK with honing because the blade is great after the stone for numerous shaves. i always feel worried stropping is going to ruin the edge made by the stone.

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Some of the things that I have noticed at the meets

Where you hold the razors, I have seen many with their fingers on the flats, not a bad thing but if your fingers are on the corners of the tang it allows you to torque the edge the way you want

Speed, It does NOT make your stropping better it really doesn't 1- 1thousand up,,,, 2- 1 thousand back is plenty fast

Pressure, light but steady

Strop Taut, This comes with experience, but the idea that the strop must be held with a grip of steel and flat as a board will change over time
I usually say "Taut" not "Tight" it is a subtle difference but it is a difference


You might want to read this thread for even more tips and tricks

http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...st-2012-a.html

60x is a good starting point for a new honer, and can be purchased for as little as $2 up to $15 on line. There are many recent posts on magnification.

More important that the quality of the magnification is understanding what you are seeing. Here is a post where a new honer takes a razor from Ebay find to shave ready. (Second Try at Honing). It is filled with good micrographs of what to look for in an edge.

Is your 12k synthetic or a Natural stone? A good synthetic like a Naniwa Super Stone will revive an failing edge, a Natural may not, at least not with out a lot of work or lower grit stones.

Read the first three post in the Honing Forum, they have a lot of good information on honing for the beginner. You issue may not be a stropping issue as it may not be properly honed.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Is your 12k synthetic or a Natural stone?

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its a naniwa synthetic. Though i dont consider myself an expert honer...i feel like i am decent with it sufficient enough to fix the edge to shaving required. A couple years ago i nicked the faucet with one of my razors, As well as droped the razor on the floor, and you could see the light mis-direction from the dings with your plain eye. I had to step down the grit and rebuild the edge completely on both accounts. I have gotten razors honed from users on this forum that i use as a sharp example.

Though the one thing i have never done is look at a blade's edge under magnification. I will have to buy one. EDIT: I checked out online, but some reviews say that the cheap ones when advertised as 30X are really only like 10X. Can you link me a cheap good one?

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Some of the things that I have noticed at the meets

Where you hold the razors, I have seen many with their fingers on the flats, not a bad thing but if your fingers are on the corners of the tang it allows you to torque the edge the way you want

Speed, It does NOT make your stropping better it really doesn't 1- 1thousand up,,,, 2- 1 thousand back is plenty fast

Pressure, light but steady

Strop Taut, This comes with experience, but the idea that the strop must be held with a grip of steel and flat as a board will change over time
I usually say "Taut" not "Tight" it is a subtle difference but it is a difference


You might want to read this thread for even more tips and tricks

http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...st-2012-a.html

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These are some good reassurances.

I like to put my thumb on the corner of the tang as im stropping as i can feel the tension and adjust the tension to the strop. I also use it to help flip the razor over via spine as its easier to catch than the flat.

Ive tried variations of strop tightness. I know you can make it a guitar string or loose as a rope bridge. I usually keep it a hair less than tight, like you can just start to see a bend in the strop loosening from it being tight.

I think this might be where im having trouble. The strop process. I never felt comfortable with it and never felt like i understood it all the way. But i would of assumed that after 2 years i would of come up with something that would of worked.

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But, your descriptor could use a bit more clarification to those of us who tend to be a bit ignorant to the art.

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Sorry. I am not use to the terminology and i did at one point delve into it, but i forgot it as quick as i learned it. Ill try to make it more precise if i know where im not faltering.

Proper stropping, as has been said, can keep a razor shave ready for years.

I have Sheffield razors that have held their edge, no refresh or crox, for over 3 years now...just disciplined stropping before a shave, and some stropping on linen and leather after a shave to clean it up.

As mentioned, speed kills, both an edge and a strop, and stropping is one of the fundamentals - a skill that must be mastered.

As Glen points out - a tight strop is important, otherwise it is very easy to roll and edge...one suggestion might be to go to a bench or loom strop, something that ensure your stropping on a flat edge.

You can practice with a butter knife to exercise the muscle memory, and this is all part of the journey of fun.....:D

I'm still new (or new enough) at this. I'm enjoying the thread. I strop regularly. Haven't bellied up to the bar for a hone. In a recent acquisition, I got a pasted strop and a barber's hone. The pasted strop actually does help. Eventually I'll try the hone. I would love for there to be a meet near me, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Here are a couple inexpensive loupes and magnifiers that I use. The silver one can be bought for as little as $2.

The other is 60 & 100X. don’t know if it really is, but it does not matter, it works…

Here is a post about honing post 74 shows the scopes. (when is your razor sharp)

Pressure is more important than the strop tension. It should be taught, but not pulling out of the wall tight. Do not use downward pressure and do not slam the razor on the flip.

Hold the razor from the corners, so the corner is in the middle of the thumb and pad of the index finger, stop the forward movement then flip the razor using your thumb, (like flipping a switch), the spine stays on the strop the whole time.

If you flip with the wrist, you will slam the razor onto the strop, break off the fin and make a ragged edge. Use your thumb and index fingers to torque just enough pressure, to keep the spine and edge on the strop. Stop and flip. Go slow, use even pressure.

A 12k Naniwia is aggressive enough to easily repair and refresh an edge. But do not attempt it blind. Use magnification, before and during the process.

I had the same problem years ago. For me the answer was using a fabric strop before the leather. Once I started doing this the edge would last much much longer.

I've found the same thing, before shave I use 30 linen and 50 leather, after shave 10 each

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Originally Posted by trondsi

I had the same problem years ago. For me the answer was using a fabric strop before the leather. Once I started doing this the edge would last much much longer.

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Marshal, that is a very interesting point you make of using a loupe. Now, for some of us who are a bit less knowledgeable than you, what is it exactly you are looking for when you use the loup? Is it a smooth unscratches cutting edge, no micro-micro chips? Would you define what it is you are looking for when you use the loup? I would like to know as well as some others whom may wander upon this discussion. Thanks.

Ray Clem. Therein is the rub. Having a hardwood forest on your face would seem to require the sharpening of a blade much sooner than one with a softer beard, then there is also an issue of beard density on the face. More material to cut the more frequent the need to touch the blade up.

My estimation of how long a blade retains its sharpness will be dependent upon these factors along with other variables. Yes?

thanks. I just ordered a loupe and a linen strop.

I hope your shaves improve.
Enjoy the shave.

Sent from my phone using some app

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Originally Posted by Glock27

Marshal, that is a very interesting point you make of using a loupe. Now, for some of us who are a bit less knowledgeable than you, what is it exactly you are looking for when you use the loup? Is it a smooth unscratches cutting edge, no micro-micro chips? Would you define what it is you are looking for when you use the loup? I would like to know as well as some others whom may wander upon this discussion. Thanks.

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Exactly that. At 10-30x the cutting edge of the blade should be straight, no chips, and burr free. The higher you go in magnification the more microchips you're going to see, but passed a certain point you're chasing things that don't really effect the shave one way or the other. Burrs/wire edges tend to look light and kinda like the edge is fuzzy. A few edge leading X strokes is usually enough to knock those off. Once you know what to look for the cheap 30x jeweler's loupes on Amazon are enough.

Scratches fall into that same category. No matter what hone you're using, you're always going to see some scratches. I can find them from my 12K, and .5 Chromium Oxide. All a matter of getting the right lighting and viewing angle. What I'm looking for there is the best that I can get out of the stone in hand. Which takes time looking through the loupe to learn. The fastest way I suppose would be to imagine you're going from 1K to 3 or 4K. Do circles on the higher grit hone until you no longer see 1K scratches, then do no pressure X strokes until those circular lines are gone and you have nothing but straight scratches. At that point you'll know what your scratch pattern should look like on that hone when it's time to move forward.

The other thing I look for is how the very edge looks. I turn the blade edge up, and look straight down at it with the loupe. What you should see is an almost invisible line where the 2 edges meet. Any shiny areas are places where either there are chips, or the bevel is not fully set. I do this check multiple times at all phases of honing just in case I missed something, and unless I'm at 8K or higher will usually try to just sort it out on the hone I'm using at the time.

I'll borrow a page from Euclid's book. This thread has a lot of really good pictures of all phases of honing:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ggestions.html

The photos are higher magnification than what you'd see with a 30x loupe, but they're very clear and show what to look for as you go through the process with magnification.

I have been using the Carson Micropbrite "pocket microscope" and it works great, although it takes a little practice to get used to holding it steady when it is at maximum (x120).

Ok so i bought a 60X microscope and a cloth strop for cleaning. I looked under the micrsocope a lot of times before i somewhat figured what i was looking at and at various times (before and after honing, before and after stropping, after shaving, then stropping, etc.

I think based on being noob remember at looking at a microscope; that there are more scratches on the edge after stropping. I almost feel like stropping is degrading the edge somehow. But i think to the best of my knowledge i am stropping correctly. I am going slow not putting pressure on the blade, flipping it back to make sure not to nick the edge, etc. I watched videos and i feel like i know exactly what they are saying.

I cant find the exact strop online that i bought. It was on amazon for $35 a couple years ago.
It is 3" wide, and it doesnt have any markings on it. Its not the best strop of course, but its not also one of those crap strops. I bought the 3" wide specifically because i didnt want to do an X when stropping, and found this to be easier. Its never been pasted. And i oil it once in a blue moon with my hands with natural oil from my skin (not much at all). It does feel stiff but it is a thick cow hide strop.

It does have a lot of stuff on it. I have kids in diapers and the strop is hooked low under my sink. So it gotten drawn on via a pen by one of my kids (which im pretty sure wont effect it) but its got you know; dirty looking. It could be from normal wear and tear, but it could also be from dirty kids hands.

I have never sanded it though to clean it. So now i am wondering if that might be the culprit?

Hope this might help in what you are looking on the edge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP7rBc#t=138

Bob

i didnt mean i am a noob at looking at the edge, i meant i am a noob at using a microscope and looking at the edge. I know those tricks already. There is no blunting, wire edge, etc. to re-elaborate: There razor is completely sharp and a good shave when i get it off the hone, but after a few shaves later is not regardless of stropping. My question was whether the strop was needed to be cleaned.

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Originally Posted by metulburr

i didnt mean i am a noob at looking at the edge, i meant i am a noob at using a microscope and looking at the edge. I know those tricks already. There is no blunting, wire edge, etc. to re-elaborate: There razor is completely sharp and a good shave when i get it off the hone, but after a few shaves later is not regardless of stropping. My question was whether the strop was needed to be cleaned.

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This is entirely possible. It doesn't take much to ruin a razor's edge, bad form or a dirty strop will certainly do it. I'd use a soft bristled brush and some slick shave lather to clean the leather up some. Take the linen apart and scrub it separately. See if that doesn't help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by metulburr

i didnt mean i am a noob at looking at the edge, i meant i am a noob at using a microscope and looking at the edge. I know those tricks already. There is no blunting, wire edge, etc. to re-elaborate: There razor is completely sharp and a good shave when i get it off the hone, but after a few shaves later is not regardless of stropping. My question was whether the strop was needed to be cleaned.

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Well if that is the case, why not try cleaning the strop and see for yourself if it makes a difference? I have been using the same strop for about 3 years now and have not cleaned the English linen component but have cleaned the leather component with a little saddle soap.

Can't help with using a microscope to look at the edge as I have never used one. I would agree with an earlier poster that you see far more with a microscope but after a certain point what you are seeing makes no difference to the shave. A case of making mountains out of mole hills. My personal experience is that if an edge looks good under 10X-30X magnification it will shave well after stropping a few times.

You could also try a touch up on a Crox pasted strop when the edge does start to fall off and see if that helps.

Some razors hold an edge longer than others for some reason. Possible that one is one of those that doesn't hold an edge long.

Bob

i was thinking in cleaning meaning using sand paper. But i know once i do that there is no going back. If its ruined it ruined afterwords. Thats why i was asking on here.

To be honest for some reason i never really thought of just saddle soap. Wont saddle soap dry it out in the long run? Should neatsfoot oil be added to treat the leather after saddle soap?

I haven't managed to hurt any of my leather with saddle soap, so there's that. Maybe if you subject it to many cleanings without ever giving it a small drink of oil to replace what you've displaced.

I used 600 grit sand paper to smooth the surface and get rid of the ridges in mine but that really isn't necessary. The sand paper just speeds up the break in, and shold probably not be done if the strop is decently broken in already.

So an update on this....
I seem to have better quality shaves from just the strop alone. Im actually not sure the last time i honed it. But it was at least 2 months ago. I cant really pinpoint exactly the issue as i fixed a few different things.

1) I started using a cloth strop after shaving to clean the razor
2) I lubricated the strop with neatsfoot oil and noticed the strop became much more softer
3) I noticed the strop might be curling. So i account for it by moving the razor every so often to make sure it gets each position of the edge on that part of the curl.
4) I got lazy on honing. So instead of 50 passes, i might of done 25.

Maybe it was a little of each, or one, not sure, but i seem to always have a straight edge now after stropping. Thanks to everyone for the pointers.

Strop before every single shave?

I use two Dovos day-on, day-off.

Last time I honed my razors was 2nd week in July. All I've done since then is strop. Linen 30, leather 50. I usually shave, clean, strop, and then let the blade rest for a day.

I don't strop before I shave. That's probably 40+ shaves on each razor and they are still "shave ready".

I have what I'd call a medium beard and shave 4-5 days a week, but I'm guessing that my beard may not be terribly hard on razors.

Maybe I'm just "lucky"...

:hmmm:

seems like my luck, but i shaved the other day, and could not get the razor sharp via strop. So i guess a couple months which i am guessing is about 2-3 times a week shaves was my max so far

I have what is called a tough beard, I can rub the paint from a car from the hair on my face. I shave every day. If my shave after stropping isn't as good as straight off the hones then it's my stropping. Stropping does not hurt an edge if it's done right. I have razors that have gone months with out ever seeing a hone. So take that for what st worth with no degrading of the edge. Your lather and your stropping plus your honing abilities come into play for how long your edge last. Then your razor steel of course.

As to all those laps n a hone to maintain your edge, I can shave with any razor I got or 2-3 weeks and just 3-4 laps down a 12k naniwa, and it is there. This is maintenance routine I was told to do by Glen if you want to always shave with a perfect edge. I personally don't see any degradation at this point, It's all different for some, some think it needs a stone all the time some don't, but if everything is right edges last a long time, my old barber wasn't honing every 10 or 12 shaves, he was shaving guys for a month or so before he even thought about a few licks on his old stone. Tc