Newbie Tip: Norton lapping/honing/glazing

Not sure if this makes any sense. If it does, it might help some of the other newbies.


Here's some background in the form of a short novel -- read it if you're bored:

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I started using straights in the Fall, and of course spent countless hours researching and eventually trying my hand at honing a brand new razor. I eventually got the razor very sharp, but not sharp enough for anything less than a painful, grabby shave.

Then I joined this forum. I read that sometimes hones need to be lapped straight out of the box. After checking on a glass table, my 4K/8K Norton didn't appear flat at all, and the edges weren't beveled, so I proceeded to lap with 800-grit wetsandpaper. Within 10 minutes, I passed the HHT for the first time. Awesome!!!

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That worked for a while, and I picked up a few restored razors from Billy's Blades in the meantime. They gave a super shave, but eventually dulled, and I went back to some light honing and trying to improve my lousy x-pattern technique. I bought the Radioshack microscope and a #12000 Kitayama. I couldn't get ANY of the razors sharp worth a damn, and eventually realized that the hone wasn't quite flat.

Lapped again with 800 grit. Tried honing again, but this time, it didn't help -- bevel looked ok in the microscope, but felt dull and gave painful shaves. I went back to using the DE safety razor for several months, but occasionally tried lapping/honing with no real progress. I might as well have been honing on a wooden 2x4". Frustration sets in.

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Back to the forums for research, I stumbled across some old posts warning about 'glazing' the hones. Wow. Makes perfect sense. My Norton was flat and smooth, as I thought it was supposed to be. But I knew something was wrong when I could seemingly do 50 laps on the 4K without any noticeable change. No metal was coming off onto the hone.

This time, I lapped with 220 grit on the 4K side, and 320 grit on the 8K side. The hone's texture was restored, and after about half of the infamous 'Norton pyramid' (plus stropping), I just finished a very comfortable shave. Not quite perfect yet, but I'm closer than ever before.

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MORAL OF THE STORY: Don't glaze your hones. As I understand it, the Norton lapping stone is supposedly around 200 grit, so don't be afraid to use some lower-grit sandpaper for lapping.

Perhaps I didn't do a good enough job of keeping the waterstone clean with the 800-grit sandpaper, or perhaps 800-grit was too high to be using in the first place? (Some members prefer even higher grits for lapping.) Nevertheless, I think I'll be sticking with lower-grit paper from now on.

Any thoughts or corrections welcome... :(

Good post! I personally lap the 4K side with 400-600 and the 8k side with 1000-1500. But I finalize my honing on 8K so its gotta be smmmoooooooth. ;)

I lap with the DMT 320 (D8C) and love the results. I do notice that it glazes over rather quickly being that smooth so I lap after each session.

Great post :)

atm i use 320 grit sandpaper. i tried using higher grit (ie 1000) but the surface felt no smoother and i had problems clogging the stone.

i'm looking into getting a dmt stone as my collection of stones grows

The directions that came with my norton 4k/8k hone said to lap it either with their lapping stone or 600 grit wet/dry. I found the norton needed frequent lapping both to keep it even, and to expose fresh abrasive. Anytime I noticed it getting really slow I could fix it by giving it a few laps on 600 wet/dry. I'm glad I got rid of it. The Norton is an all around aggravating stone to use.

Question: do you lap with your Norton wet or dry?

Same way you hone with it, otherwise the 4k side will suck water and grit into the pores of the hone and promptly clog it again. I usually lapped mine right before starting a honing session.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

The directions that came with my norton 4k/8k hone said to lap it either with their lapping stone or 600 grit wet/dry. I found the norton needed frequent lapping both to keep it even, and to expose fresh abrasive. Anytime I noticed it getting really slow I could fix it by giving it a few laps on 600 wet/dry. I'm glad I got rid of it. The Norton is an all around aggravating stone to use.

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MParker, What hone do you prefer over the Norton? What do you think of Shaptons? I have neither but Dr. Chris Moss says he prefers the Shaptons.

I sold off nearly all my hones and went with the Shapton line. I've had the 8k and 15k pro hones for nearly a year now, and once I figured them out I got great results. I made the big switch a few months ago, and at this point I've got pretty much the full set from 1k up. All my new Shaptons are glassstones because they're cheaper and I'm not likely to wear them out in my lifetime. They're so fast (and pricey) that I don't really recommend them for newbies, but once you know you're sticking with straights then they're worth the investment. No soaking or extended drying or slurrying or any such foolishness, just spritz on a little water and go, and wipe them off and put them away when you're done. They rarely need lapping, and if you're so inclined (and have the coin) they go up to 30k grit.

It does take a little while to get used to them because they're so aggressive and only need a few laps at any given grit (generally 3-7, depending on how hard the steel is, but they have to be *perfect* laps).

The other downside to Shaptons is very few guys around here use them (quite a few guys seem to have one or two, but don't use them). Chris Moss loves them, I think Joe Lerch uses the 16k Shapton, and maybe one or two other guys use them regularly. Not many though. With hones as with so many other things personal preferences have a lot to do with it.

I'd definitely like to try one of the Shapton hones someday. Has anyone actually purchased the 30,000 grit stone? It's nearly $500! I figure I could put that money towards laser hair removal at that point. ;)

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Three addendums I'd like to make to my original post:

1) As mparker brought up, in addition to the 800-grit paper, I did use 600-grit (as recommended by the manual that comes with the stone). All I can say is that it didn't help with the glazing. Conversely, it might have caused it.

2) I can't say that I'll stick with using 220/320 grit paper in the future, but it was necessary to "de-glaze" the stone. The 600/800 grit paper seemed to work well the first time I used it -- the only problem was the stone eventually glazed over. Nothing is set in stone, so to speak.

3) Not sure that the 8K side was ever a problem. It was mostly the 4K side that glazed and stopped cutting.

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Originally Posted by Kyle76

Question: do you lap with your Norton wet or dry?

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I soak mine underwater for at least 10-15 minutes, or until I stop seeing those little bubbles coming out the side. Then use copious amounts of water while actually lapping. Naturally, you lap the stone on a flat surface, such as glass.

I'm not sure what would happen if you lapped the stone bone dry, without using any water whatsoever. Dusty mess, perhaps, but maybe the water acts to 'flush' the stone as much as it helps loose material to 'embed' into it? Either way, I'm not going to try...

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Originally Posted by Alexander

I'd definitely like to try one of the Shapton hones someday. Has anyone actually purchased the 30,000 grit stone? It's nearly $500! I figure I could put that money towards laser hair removal at that point. ;)

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Chris Moss has the 30k Shapton glassstone and gushes over it. Apparently Shapton USA no longer sells the professional 30k hone but still sells the glassstone version, which is much cheaper (< $300).

Edit: At this point I'm in danger of hijacking the thread, so further queries re Shapton can be directed to me via PM.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Same way you hone with it, otherwise the 4k side will suck water and grit into the pores of the hone and promptly clog it again. I usually lapped mine right before starting a honing session.

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Might be part of the reason Bill Ellis uses a little rottenstone to start off a 4k session.

Very nice hijack though! ;) If any newbies are dropping in MParker's comments on learning a new stone are very important to understand and accept. It seems to me every stone requires an important learning curve, particularly about the speed.

I would say that every stone requires a perfect stroke but the point is very valid, the faster the stone the worse it will react to an imperfect stroke.

I also lap my Norton wet and right before a honing session. The logic behind that seems too intuitive to ignore.

It's not really a hijack -- this is all very apropos to the subject. Someone might consider looking into the Shapton line of stones should the Norton prove troublesome. I personally like to know my alternative options.

Call me stupid, but I never realized that Shapton had both a Pro and a GlassStone series. $280 for a #30,000 stone seems far more reasonable -- with it being somewhat of a luxury item in the first place.

Some of the classic Barber hones came with a "rubbing" stone. This was used to removed the metal residue, "swarf", that resulted from honing. It was simply a coarser grit stone. The rationale of its use still applies today with most stones. They simply collect the debris of honing and that must be removed.
Then you will have better honing results.

I have pretty much stopped looking for the perfect hone. It simply does not exist. The 1200 grit diamond hones are simply to harsh on a razors edge. I use mine for lapping now. Instead I prefer to use 1000 grit sandpaper... but that is a last resort. I will try up to several hundred laps on a 4K first. The Norton can be a pain to keep unglazed and flat but when you do it performs very well. It is reliable and rather fast cutting.


Just rambling,:)

The Shapton Pro line and their Glass line behave differently also. I've heard that the glass stones don't like carbon steel much, as where the Pro line works very well with carbon steel. I've talked to many knife and "rock" nuts on this and I have always understood it to be true. So I'm slowly replacing all my stones with Shapton Pro's, as the old ones wear out.

Seems that most straights are carbon steels I would assume the Pro line would be the best choice. 30K stone is just not on my "Need" list so I'm going to pass on that :p

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Originally Posted by DwarvenChef

The Shapton Pro line and their Glass line behave differently also. I've heard that the glass stones don't like carbon steel much, as where the Pro line works very well with carbon steel.

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I've got a mix of glassstones and pro stones, and I haven't noticed this phenomenon :shrug:

On razors I doubt there is enough steel removal to show effect. My experience is with kitchen knives, Lots of metal removed and all.

I would be interested seeing the stones after equil use with the same steel. I'll have to get with my group of knife knuts to see if there are a large number of these stones available for a side by side test.

The only other thing I'm not crazy about with the glass stones is how thin they are. I'd end up burning through them to fast to make the savings worth the effort.

If I were honing knives and chisels I'd be concerned about their thinness too. Fortunately razors don't seem to do much to them at all so the cost savings are a much bigger factor.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

If I were honing knives and chisels I'd be concerned about their thinness too. Fortunately razors don't seem to do much to them at all so the cost savings are a much bigger factor.

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Can't argue with you there, thats why I'm torn. I know I need stones for my razors and stones for my knives. But being broke I need to consentrate on the stones that I can multitask :p

what exactly is a glazed stone? An over lapped stone?

Stone that is loaded up with steel, oil, and skin :eek: . A loaded stone doesn't cut for poopy...

I am currently trying to restore a #14 Filarmonica Doble Temple that I picked up on eBay. I'm using hard and black Arkansas stones, and having no discernible success. I have had success with a Genco and a C-mon using the same stones. Is there something about the Filarmonica. Also, how can I tell when to move to a finer grit, eg. from the hard Arkansas to the black? Thanks.
Irish

I just visited the Coticule Chronicles, and saw a number of mentions of some type of slurry used when sharpening. To what does this refer?
Irish

I finished working on my remaining two razors tonight, and came across some other points. I'm new to this, but kinda curious if some of the 'generally established rules' are more just recommendations:

1) Up until this point, I've been lapping my hones on my large glass dining table. I've read about a lot of people going out of their way to buy plate glass or other products from the hardware store for this purpose. Tonight, I got lazy, and decided to just lay the sandpaper on the kitchen countertop near the sink. Not only did this save time and make for easy cleanup, but the the thickness of the sandpaper + water tension seems to make any issues with smoothness negligible. Maybe we just need a generally flat/sturdy surface, and not something that needs to pass a micrometer test? (It looked good when I tested it on the glass table.)

2) I again used 220 grit paper, and really, this only seems to change the texture of the 4K side. The 8K side was still smooth as glass, with just a slight bit of drag to it -- not entirely different than what I got using 800 grit paper. Perhaps the sandpaper was worn, but this would back up someone earlier in the thread who stated that the grit didn't make a whole lot of difference in the stones' finish. Another bonus is that the lower-grit paper lasts longer, doesn't gunk up as easily, and cuts quicker. (Saves time, and the paper is reusable for next time.)

Yes, I've officially put too much thought into this.

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Originally Posted by irish19

Is there something about the Filarmonica. Also, how can I tell when to move to a finer grit, eg. from the hard Arkansas to the black? Thanks.
Irish

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I can't really help with the process/stones, but I have heard that the Filarmonicas are difficult to get shave-ready out of the box. I almost bought one, as it is a sharp looking razor, but avoided it (for the time being) due to the honing difficulty.

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Originally Posted by irish19

I just visited the Coticule Chronicles, and saw a number of mentions of some type of slurry used when sharpening. To what does this refer?
Irish

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When you hone, very small particles of the hone itself will break up and create a slush upon the surface -- referred to as slurry. This slurry is what helps to polish and sharpen the blade.

That's also why we have to lap the hones every so often -- they wear away when this slurry is created, and become cupped. You need a very flat surface on a hone to achieve a shave-quality edge on a razor.

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Originally Posted by irish19

I just visited the Coticule Chronicles, and saw a number of mentions of some type of slurry used when sharpening. To what does this refer?
Irish

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slurry is a mixture of water and ground stone. generally used with the belgium coticules and the german eschers and thuringers stones. it is made by wetting the stone and rubbing it with a small peice of similer stone, it will make the honing go quicker but should not be used on the final polishing hone. rarely, people make a slurry on the norton 4k stone.
you never want to try one on a barber's hone there you just need water or lather.

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Originally Posted by Alexander

I finished working on my remaining two razors tonight, and came across some other points. I'm new to this, but kinda curious if some of the 'generally established rules' are more just recommendations:

1) Up until this point, I've been lapping my hones on my large glass dining table. I've read about a lot of people going out of their way to buy plate glass or other products from the hardware store for this purpose. Tonight, I got lazy, and decided to just lay the sandpaper on the kitchen countertop near the sink. Not only did this save time and make for easy cleanup, but the the thickness of the sandpaper + water tension seems to make any issues with smoothness negligible. Maybe we just need a generally flat/sturdy surface, and not something that needs to pass a micrometer test? (It looked good when I tested it on the glass table.)

2) I again used 220 grit paper, and really, this only seems to change the texture of the 4K side. The 8K side was still smooth as glass, with just a slight bit of drag to it -- not entirely different than what I got using 800 grit paper. Perhaps the sandpaper was worn, but this would back up someone earlier in the thread who stated that the grit didn't make a whole lot of difference in the stones' finish. Another bonus is that the lower-grit paper lasts longer, doesn't gunk up as easily, and cuts quicker. (Saves time, and the paper is reusable for next time.)

Yes, I've officially put too much thought into this.



I can't really help with the process/stones, but I have heard that the Filarmonicas are difficult to get shave-ready out of the box. I almost bought one, as it is a sharp looking razor, but avoided it (for the time being) due to the honing difficulty.

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the flatter the substrate, plate glass, granite tile, lapping stone the more uniform surface you will get on your hone which in turn means the easier it will be to hone properly.

i lap my norton 4k/8/ with their flattening stone it is about a 200 grit stone works a charm, no need for hight grit lapping on sandpaper.

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Originally Posted by syslight

the flatter the substrate, plate glass, granite tile, lapping stone the more uniform surface you will get on your hone which in turn means the easier it will be to hone properly.

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Absolutely. I'm just curious if there's a point of diminishing returns.

To reiterate, after lapping on my countertop, I checked for flatness again on the glass table just for kicks. It looked just the same as it always does after lapping on glass. No air pockets, impossible to lift off without twisting.

I could be dead wrong -- it's just in my nature to question. Rubbing a 3x8" brick in *circular patterns* upon a seemingly 99% flat surface, with .018"-thick sandpaper + water as a medium, would seem to negate any minuscule surface irregularities.

I should go stick a straight edge on my kitchen counter and see if I can stick a .018" feeler gauge at any point along an 8" stretch...

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Originally Posted by Alexander

... would seem to negate any minuscule surface irregularities.

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It's not minute surface irregularities that you're worried about, it's warped surfaces.

What exactly did you think I was checking?

I checked the surface with a machinist's straight edge this morning. My kitchen counter isn't warped; there are only minor surface irregularities. The glass table is perfectly flat by comparison, but I get identical results either way, so I don't see what difference it makes.

Take it with a grain of salt -- just something I've found.