Problems with Carbon Steel?

I shaved for a couple of decades with a straight razor at weekends, gave up and I am coming back to it now, fifteen years on.

In the meantime I have had some skin problems generally. It seems to run in my family, that psoriasis gets worse through our life-times. To put this into perspective, I can use a product for a year, and then suddenly - boom - without any warning I can never use it again with out bad irritation. This came to a head 18 months ago. I think I have solved it generally using DEs and Feather AC style shavettes. With good prep, the right products, a light touch, and a very sharp blade I can shave without discomfort and no issues.

I have bought a couple of carbon and stainless straight razors - Dovo and Thiers Issard. But shaving is not the same as it was 15 years ago. This time around I am struggling. My beard seems tougher and my skin much more sensitive.

Keeping all other prep and conditions identical, when I shave with a carbon steel straight razor, even for only one pass, my face reacts like it is on fire, turns bright and burns, burns, burns. I don't get this with the stainless SR blades, although I am having other challenges with these, getting them sharp enough.

I considered that it might be mineral oil on the blade, but I have been meticulous with both the carbon and stainless blades to oil them both in the same way, which means the only variable is the blade metal as far as I can see.

I have researched metal reactions on medical websites - there are health and safety considerations for carbon steel - it can cause a reaction but it seems that it is much more likely for skin to react to the chromium in stainless steel from what I've read.

Has anyone else experienced similar? Any advice?

If it is only one carbon steel razor, I would say that the honing is suspect. When I was reading I also thought that the chromium in stainless would be worse than carbon steel. I have met more than one person who reacted to chromium.

Interesting point about the honing - I will bear that in mind. It happens with razors from different sources, bought shave ready so I had discounted that but back in the day the razors I used had quite a bit of hone ware on the spine, and my memory of them is that they were sharper than the razors I am using now. What I don't know is whether my beard is tougher and my skin more sensitive, or whether the edge was very different.

Most razors don't come truly " Shave Ready ". They must be sent to a honemiester. I just honed one last night for a member who was struggling to get a descent shave. It was supposed to be shave ready....couldn't cut the paper wrapper off a stick of butter.. She's like shaving with a stick of butter, now. Real smooooth.!

Hell the bevel wasn't even close to being set and joined..

The only time I have heard of people having a reaction to metal was with the pins/screws used to hold breaks in bone together. In that case it was a reaction to the nickel in the stainless steel pins. I have my doubts that there would be a reaction from just passing a blade over your face but could be wrong on that.

My first thought, like bluesman7, is that the honing is off on the blade giving you trouble. I know when I first started to learn how to hone I could put an edge on a blade that would irritate the hell out of my skin. Too much pressure and a wrong angle really added to that really magnified the irritation. There is not a blade that is properly honed that won't make easy work of any beard type.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

The only time I have heard of people having a reaction to metal was with the pins/screws used to hold breaks in bone together. In that case it was a reaction to the nickel in the stainless steel pins. I have my doubts that there would be a reaction from just passing a blade over your face but could be wrong on that.

My first thought, like bluesman7, is that the honing is off on the blade giving you trouble. I know when I first started to learn how to hone I could put an edge on a blade that would irritate the hell out of my skin. Too much pressure and a wrong angle really added to that really magnified the irritation. There is not a blade that is properly honed that won't make easy work of any beard type.

Bob

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I was thinking of nickel too, but it looks like stainless blades have their share of nickel too.

FYI
I have a skin condition (most likely psoriasis judging by the breakouts) and washing my face with natural goat's milk soap I bought from an Amish soap maker has really helped. If I go back to another soap I can see the red patches start coming back. Next time I go there I'm stocking up!

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Originally Posted by JP5

I was thinking of nickel too, but it looks like stainless blades have their share of nickel too.

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My bad! I was thinking of nickle allergies too. Not chromium though chromium is also a dangerous heavy metal.

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Originally Posted by JP5

I was thinking of nickel too, but it looks like stainless blades have their share of nickel too.

FYI
I have a skin condition (most likely psoriasis judging by the breakouts) and washing my face with natural goat's milk soap I bought from an Amish soap maker has really helped. If I go back to another soap I can see the red patches start coming back. Next time I go there I'm stocking up!

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I'd still have the blade that is giving you trouble honed by a reputable honemeister to be sure it is not the edge that is giving you grief. There are shaving creams/soaps made with goats milk too.

If you haven't tried Enstilar for your psoriasis it may be worth checking out. You may need a prescription to get but seems to work well for the boss. It is quite a bit cheaper if you can get it from Canada or England.

Bob

There is a pretty easy way to figure out if it is a metal allergy or your edge or a reaction between your skin, soap, and blade.
Run the spine of the blade across your dry face in one place. If you get a reaction, then you are allergic to the metal. If not then it might not be the metal.
Run the spine of the blade across a wet part of your face on the other side. If you get a reaction, then you are having a galvanic skin reaction to the metal. If no reaction then run the spine of the blade across a soaped area of your face in a third spot. I guess we know that is going to react, but if the other two tests above don't react then this will prove it is a reaction between the metal, soap, and your skin - changing soaps might be the answer.

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

There is a pretty easy way to figure out if it is a metal allergy or your edge or a reaction between your skin, soap, and blade.
Run the spine of the blade across your dry face in one place. If you get a reaction, then you are allergic to the metal. If not then it might not be the metal.
Run the spine of the blade across a wet part of your face on the other side. If you get a reaction, then you are having a galvanic skin reaction to the metal. If no reaction then run the spine of the blade across a soaped area of your face in a third spot. I guess we know that is going to react, but if the other two tests above don't react then this will prove it is a reaction between the metal, soap, and your skin - changing soaps might be the answer.

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Genius - thank you! I will try this.

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Originally Posted by BobH

I'd still have the blade that is giving you trouble honed by a reputable honemeister to be sure it is not the edge that is giving you grief. There are shaving creams/soaps made with goats milk too.

If you haven't tried Enstilar for your psoriasis it may be worth checking out. You may need a prescription to get but seems to work well for the boss. It is quite a bit cheaper if you can get it from Canada or England.

Bob

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Thank you - I will try this. I am always looking for new products to fall back on.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

My bad! I was thinking of nickle allergies too. Not chromium though chromium is also a dangerous heavy metal.

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That's what confused me from what I read.

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Originally Posted by JP5

I was thinking of nickel too, but it looks like stainless blades have their share of nickel too.

FYI
I have a skin condition (most likely psoriasis judging by the breakouts) and washing my face with natural goat's milk soap I bought from an Amish soap maker has really helped. If I go back to another soap I can see the red patches start coming back. Next time I go there I'm stocking up!

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I will look for goat's milk soap. Thanks for the tip.

Your welcome. It certainly isn't a cure, but as uncomfortable as it is having red/flaky skin on the face I wish I had tried it earlier.

Does rotating skin products help prevent your skin from becoming intolerant of them, or is it just something that happens regardless of how frequently you use them?

Like your avatar picture by the way. :tu

This is all very confusing. I have never heard of someone having an allergy to chromium. In 99% of the cases it's always Nickel and stainless steel is loaded with the stuff. You see it more with watches where a stainless case causes someone's wrist to have red blotches and eruptions and it goes south from there. There are stainless alloys with tiny amounts of nickel or none at all.

Usually a change of materials solves the problem. Carbon Steel usually does not have enough nickel in it to cause problems.

it might be a improperly honed razor or some shave prep with ingredients you are sensitive to.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

This is all very confusing. I have never heard of someone having an allergy to chromium. In 99% of the cases it's always Nickel and stainless steel is loaded with the stuff. You see it more with watches where a stainless case causes someone's wrist to have red blotches and eruptions and it goes south from there. There are stainless alloys with tiny amounts of nickel or none at all.

Usually a change of materials solves the problem. Carbon Steel usually does not have enough nickel in it to cause problems.

it might be a improperly honed razor or some shave prep with ingredients you are sensitive to.

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Bluesman mentioned in his next post he mistakenly wrote chromium instead of nickel. So if it was an allergy the SS would have more likely been the problem.

The most common metal allergies are Nickel, Copper, Cobalt, and Chromium are the four most common metal allergies. Chromium allergy affects 1% to 3% of the population.

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Originally Posted by JP5

Your welcome. It certainly isn't a cure, but as uncomfortable as it is having red/flaky skin on the face I wish I had tried it earlier.

Does rotating skin products help prevent your skin from becoming intolerant of them, or is it just something that happens regardless of how frequently you use them?

Like your avatar picture by the way. :tu

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Thanks for the Avatar comment.

Rotation helps a little. If I rotate too frequently it actually causes problems. For instance at the moment I alternate between two shampoos. A month ago, the one I am currently using was intolerable but right now is fine and the one I was using a month ago now burns my scalp. In a couple of months this will likely switch because last summer they were the other way round.

I am generally OK with TOBS Jermyn street and mostly OK with Proraso Sensitive. Aftershaves are strange. One day I can be fine with a balm and then - boom - can't use it for weeks. Floris Elite which is alcohol based is the one I seem to be able to return to if all else fails.

My Great Uncle got to the stage later in life where he reacted to anything he put on his skin. In retirement he would have three hot showers a day and wash in water only because he could not use soap of any kind. I believe he used a straight razor with water only to shave.

My son is even more sensitive than I am. He is coming up to shaving age.

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

There is a pretty easy way to figure out if it is a metal allergy or your edge or a reaction between your skin, soap, and blade.
Run the spine of the blade across your dry face in one place. If you get a reaction, then you are allergic to the metal. If not then it might not be the metal.
Run the spine of the blade across a wet part of your face on the other side. If you get a reaction, then you are having a galvanic skin reaction to the metal. If no reaction then run the spine of the blade across a soaped area of your face in a third spot. I guess we know that is going to react, but if the other two tests above don't react then this will prove it is a reaction between the metal, soap, and your skin - changing soaps might be the answer.

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So I tried this.

Spine of the razor back and forth on my neck.
No water: nothing.
Wet neck and back of razor: Thiers Issard - slight irritation. Swedish steel custom: it came up bright red.

So now I am confused - surely two carbon steels are the same?

I tried to shave with that TI razor and made only one pass ATG. I got out alive with little or no irritation. Diving straight in ATG goes against the grain (!) of everything I learnt when I was taught to shave years and years ago.

My gut is telling me that, regardless of reaction to metal, the posts on this thread about sharpness make sense. I am going to study all the honing guides and try to take one carbon blade as sharp as I can, and then shave with it.

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Originally Posted by Seveneighth

So now I am confused - surely two carbon steels are the same?


My gut is telling me that, regardless of reaction to metal, the posts on this thread about sharpness make sense. I am going to study all the honing guides and try to take one carbon blade as sharp as I can, and then shave with it.

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Not all carbon steels, including stainless steels, are made up of the same percentage mix of elements. One could have slightly more nickel content than the other for example.

Unless you are good at honing the best bet is to send a razor to a recognized pro honer, if possible, to ensure you have a truly shave ready edge. If you do that, do not strop the razor first before shaving the first time. That is to eliminate the possibility that your stropping is dulling the edge. If you strop before the second shave and the blade feels duller you will know that your stropping is a possible culprit wrt to dull edges.

Bob

I would lean towards an improperly honed edge, some need edges more keen than others due to courseness of hair, the other is the soap being used.

Sounds like a galvanic skin reaction to the Swedish steel. You are probably allergic Thallium which is in higher concentration in Swedish ore compared to other iron ores in the world; well except maybe for iron ore from north east Canada. Either don't use Swedish steel or take a benedryl before using it - and if you ever have a nuclear tracer study done, make sure you tell the doctor that you might be allergic to thallium.

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

Sounds like a galvanic skin reaction to the Swedish steel. You are probably allergic Thallium which is in higher concentration in Swedish ore compared to other iron ores in the world; well except maybe for iron ore from north east Canada. Either don't use Swedish steel or take a benedryl before using it - and if you ever have a nuclear tracer study done, make sure you tell the doctor that you might be allergic to thallium.

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I think you must be right. The Swedish Steel razor was honed by a very renowned honemeister, so for that razor at least the edge shouldn't be a problem. It seems the problem is worse with certain carbon steel razors which would follow what you say. As ever - no problem with Dovo stainless and I think TI carbon razors aren't aggravating.

Thanks for your advice and the information.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Not all carbon steels, including stainless steels, are made up of the same percentage mix of elements. One could have slightly more nickel content than the other for example.

Unless you are good at honing the best bet is to send a razor to a recognized pro honer, if possible, to ensure you have a truly shave ready edge. If you do that, do not strop the razor first before shaving the first time. That is to eliminate the possibility that your stropping is dulling the edge. If you strop before the second shave and the blade feels duller you will know that your stropping is a possible culprit wrt to dull edges.

Bob

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It's a real surprise that carbon steels differ - I thought carbon steel was carbon steel. It makes sense that each contain different elements.

Several folks have commented on whether the carbon steel blade is sharp enough.

Another thing to consider is beard prep before shaving. Dry human hair is similar to copper wire of the same size, so the beard needs moisture to soften it.

Many men can shower and shave afterwards with no more prep. I'm not one of them. After a really short shower, I get out and hold a warm wet wash cloth on my face for a couple of minutes.

I also use pre-shave oil and let it work on my beard further while I take care of some other tasks.

The symptoms you are describing could be an allergy to the steel. They are also similar to the symptoms when effective beard prep and a sufficiently sharp razor are the issue.

Thanks. I am quite meticulous with prep and I have tried to keep consistent between razors, but I am mindful of the points you make.