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Hi everyone I’m new to straight razors this is my first.
My razor is tugging when I shave with it.
It has been touched up on a naniwa 12000 and it clinks the hairs on my arm off pretty well but tugs when shaving my face.
Not sure what to do with it next.
Any advice is welcomed.
Thanks in advance.
Who did the touch up on the Naniwa 12K?
Bob
Thanks for the quick reply Bob. I did it.The Naniwa was checked and flat before use.
Was it on the factory edge before the touch-up? How did it shave originally?
So it was a second hand razor and honed by the previous owner. It shaved ok for the first time then I think I messed up stropping it as I only had a 2” wide one.
Now I have a 3” strop.
Have you inspected the edge under magnification to see if there is any damage to it?
Bob
No I haven’t.
What would I look for an uneven edge? Would it stand out and be obvious?
Here is an outstanding thread on the Naniwa 12k.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...aniwa-12k.html
Do a forum search on the top right. Lots of comprehensive threads on stropping. (AND everything else!;))
Thanks Bob.
Can you recommend a magnification tool?
Depending on how bad the edge rolled on the strop, it may need a bit more then a touch up. Maybe not full bevel reset, but more then what a 12K can easily do. Is the 12K your only stone? If you have an 8K you may want to run it over that, and then run the 12K to see if that brings the comfy shave.
I dont know the honing skills of the seller, but "shave ready" means something different to a lot of people. Any razor I buy, I will automatically do a bevel set and progression on my own stones. And if I cant get a great edge on it, I will send it out to a known good honer... ("Aldwyn, you always seem to send me challenging blades!" - Glenn M) The exception being my new kamisoris I have been buying recently, since I havnt tried honing one yet. :D
I do have a Norton 4000/8000 combo too.
Should I tape the spine when honing? The blade is old 1900’s
I had a similar problem with a razor I sold to someone. It was their stroping. If you have a linen and leather strop lay the strop on a flat surface. Do about 25 passes each direction on linen followed by 75 passes on leather. It straightened out his problem and may work for you.
I'd use a loupe and a good light source to check and see if the edge is chipped and/or bent. It should be obvious. If it is damaged you may need to reset the bevel and that is another ball game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian6987
I hate to say it but being a real beginner you are up against it. It may be a better idea to sent it out to be honed.
Bob
Where do you live? May be a member near you that can help.
That’s a good idea I will try that thanks boushie.
I think the blade is set,it just needs a finishing touch as I can shave with it but it pulls slightly and doesn’t seem quite right.
I’m in the uk
I am assuming you have a hanging strop. If so most beginners don't hold it tight enough and use too much pressure causing a rolled edge.
Ok so pull the strop tight and don’t apply too much pressure I will try that too thanks.
I’m glad I joined this forum as I felt all alone in this haha
There should be info in library. You keep contact with Strop at all times rolling razor on spine.
Did the person who sold it to you use tape to hone? That may be a problem too. If they did and you didn’t it would be a fair amount of time on the 12k to get out to the edge while honing, well more than a refresh of an undamaged edge on a 12k should take. A single piece of electrical tape on the spine then back to the 12k with a light slurry and do laps up and down the hone until the water starts going up the hollow, evenly. Then walk the slurry off with water and squeegee the hone face with your finder a few times then do some really light strokes on the hone, like 10-20. The hone should not have any standing water on it when you finish. This part only takes a few laps, too much and the edge will get uncomfortable, not enough and it could have been a little more comfortable and a little sharper. 10-20 strokes is kind of my sweet spot for all the razors I’ve honed on the Naniwa 12k.
If that doesn’t bring it back or you’re seeing nicks or it’s uncomfortable then drop back to your 8k and do some laps on that, again looking to make sure you’re undercutting the water from heel to toe.
Another good trick to see where the hone is contacting the bevel is to ink it with a sharpie. Do a lap or two on the hone then look at it in the light. Without magnification you should be able to tell where you’re at.
Rotating the edge to try and reflect light off it is also tell tale sign of whether or not you have edge damage or your bevels aren’t quite set. If you see some glints keep honing until you can’t.
The Norton 4/8 is a very versatile combo. Lap light and often and that hone can remove steel very efficiently. If you have a diamond hone for lapping stones your pretty well set for hones. You could add a 1k at some point but the diamond hone will take care of chips and most damage, then a some time at the 4K you can reset a bevel with it, it will just take a while.
If you get frustrated walk away, no better time to screw up a razor than when your in a hurry or not relaxed.
Hi Ian, Welcome to the forum!
As you can see there are lots of great fellas here that like to help a new member.
Unfortunately there are many variables to factor when starting out and it's very easy to mess up an edge.
Speak to the original honer, ask them if they used tape, if so how many and what type of stroke did they use? If they used 2 layers of tape and you used none or just one layer you will not reach the edge with a few strokes on the 12k.
It seems like you've done your research and you have the right equipment to achieve a great shave.
If no luck with the original honer I'd try using one layer of tape and 10 to 20 weight of the blade laps on the 12k and go from there. As mentioned a loupe is also a very useful tool to see what is going on.
If you haven't already done so read everything in the library
https://sharprazorpalace.com/faq.php it's a wealth of information.
If you decide to send ut out a couple of pro honers can sort your razor out PM celticcrusader or Job15 and they will look after you.
Enjoy the ride
No one has asked so I will, how long you been shaving with a straight? New guys have a hard time even with a properly honed razor and stropping is key to successful shaving and it’s a skill that doesn’t come quickly.
You rolled the edge, no problem, everybody does when starting out, too much pressure and slamming the edge into the leather at the flip. The edge of a razor is thinner than you can see at 400X, it does not take much to roll or damage it.
Did you lap your stone? Lap with a 300-400 diamond plate or a piece of 220 wet and dry on any flat surface. Make sure to bevel the edges.
Check the edge with a Q tip, lightly run the cotton tip on the edge from heel to toe, any snagging, any snagging is a chip or rolled edge. A rolled edge will become a chipped edge once the rolled burr comes off.
A good 60-100 power is the Carson micro brite at $10-15 online.
Once your stone is lapped flat and smooth, tape the spine and do 10 lite X laps and look at it again. A 12k will easily re set an edge unless you dropped it and have a huge chip in the edge.
Look at the edge from the side, it should be straight and straight down on the edge, any shiny spots are where the bevels are not meeting and or chipped.
Here is a good primer from the liberty (Beginner's Guide to Honing) Also the first post in the Honing forum is full of good information, read all the links.
A touch up is easy, if you muff it, send it out.
Thanks very much mark kelly.
The original owner of the blade did use 1 strip of insulation tape on the spine and I did not so I need to tape the spine up next time.
I may need one of those guys help for now. I may also buy a second razor to practice on.
Hi, Ian. Be sure to examine your shave technique, too. It is common for beginners to use a shave angle that is too high. It is the difference between shaving and scraping. Scraping is hard on your face and also hard on a delicate edge. If you lay the razor flat against your face and rotate the spine outward away from the face until the gap is equal to the spine thickness, that is a good general shave angle. With a dull razor you may have to lean it out a little more. For an extremely sharp edge, use a tighter angle, even almost dragging the spine on the face.
As for your honing, before you possibly compound an error, try to measure and calculate the bevel angle. To do this, examine the spine. Notice the upper edge (with the razor held edge-down, standard orientation) which is one corner of the right triangle to be solved. The edge is the acute corner. The third corner, which is a right angle, is buried inside the razor's spine. Measure the Hypotenuse. This is the distance between the shaving edge and the upper edge of the spine bevel. Now, measure the thickness of the spine at the same point on the spine. Divide by two. That is the Opposite side length. Divide this by the Hypotenuse and you have the Sine of the acute angle. Find that angle. Double it. There. You got your Bevel Angle. If it is much under 16deg, you SHOULD use tape. If it is over 17deg, you should NOT use tape, As a general rule. Tape is a valuable tool for correcting a too-acute bevel angle. It is also useful in some other limited situations. This is not to say you positively HAVE to follow these guidelines but they will optimize your edge a bit.
If the verdict is that tape is called for, simply apply a strip of tape and hone. Very likely you can just use your finisher alone. You can raise a bit of slurry if you like, with a small diamond plate or card, or even a coticule slurry stone. Go a couple dozen laps, should be more than enough. Now rinse your stone well, get all traces of slurry gone. Hone with gradually diminishing pressure and end up with only the weight of the razor on the hone. Hone in hand for best results at this. It may seem awkward for the first 30 seconds or so and then you will sense how much better you can regulate pressure and balance when both razor and hone are sort of floating in the space in front of you.
You are not done.
Rinse the hone again and apply shave lather. Again, start with pressure equal to about the razor plus the weight of a finger. Gradually lighten pressure again. It will begin to feel like the razor is not even contacting the hone. Now, the hone is cutting only very faint scratches in the bevel as it removes the overburden down to the bottom of previous scratches. This takes quite some time and you can't trust feedback for this part. But if you nail it, you will be very happy indeed with the edge. You will have bumped it up quite a bit.
If you find through magnified visual examination under a bright light that you have raised a bit of a wire edge, you used too much pressure, or possibly too much pressure AND too many laps. The 12k Naniwa and plain water gives very good feedback when the edge is fully developed. You should feel the edge sort of sticking to the hone with suction set up by the surface tension of the honing water. When your stiction peaks, you are done, proceed to the lather trick. But back to the wire edge, a good cure for that is to use the pull stroke method. A pull stroke is where you simply pull the razor to the right, across the hone, about 3/4" and flip the blade and hit the other side. This strips artifacts from the edge. I add a pair of pull strokes when honing after every 5 laps or so. If there is definitely a problem and I need the pull strokes to fix it rather than simply prevent it, I go about a half dozen, then 10 of the lightest possible regular laps, and re-examind the edge. The pull strokes can very slightly round the edge and the final regular laps help to peak it back up.
Another cure for wire edge is simply move back down a grit, raise a slurry, and hone that stuff off with light pressure. Both slurry and light pressure are bitter enemies of wire or fin edge. After the slurried honing, rinse off and peak it back up with just clean water, then proceed back to your finisher.
I mostly suspect your problem is simply not contacting the edge with the hone. You are hitting the bevel alright, but at a flatter angle than the original honer had from taped honing. Back it down to your bevel setter and go a half dozen laps at a time, re-examining the bevel's scratch pattern. You should be able to tell the difference between your new scratches and the original finish scratches. You will see your new scratches starting at the upper edge of the bevel and gradually spreading down to the edge. When you are almost there, bump it up to 4k or so, hone. Bump up to your 8k. Finally, finish on your 12k.
Depending on the magnification and lighting you have available, you might only see a subtle difference in the reflection, and not the actual scratch pattern. But same-o same-o.
If you hone with tape, you SHOULD only need your finisher. Keep in mind that there are different thicknesses of electrical tape. Most are similar to either 33 or 66.
I know fixing this without tape sounds very involved but keep an open mind about it, especially if the bevel angle is over 17deg or so.
Finally, if you hone without tape, you need to keep your pressure balanced between edge and spine. You want them both to wear proportionally. I am told and told and told that all newbies decimate the spine when honing without tape and so they should always no matter what use tape. Big philosophical difference and sort of a doctrinal war. Pay no attention. If you need tape, use it. Otherwise, don't, But keep your pressure balanced properly and hone in hand.
Wow, lots of good information there from everyone. A lot to digest but very helpful. Ian as one who taught himself how to strop and hone in the dark and muddled a LOT before seeing daylight I'd agree you almost certainly rolled your edge. It happens and it's not the end of the world. It would have been better to get a good handle on stropping before going to honing because you have no way of knowing if you are honing right if you are not stropping right afterward. For this moment it doesn't matter because you can't unring the bell. Not to worry though. You'll get through it. You may want to send it out to get it honed and get good information from the honer about taping etc. for once you do refresh. If you are stropping correctly though that should be a WHILE. A second razor is always a good idea. Lots of folks will tell you that you need to be shaving for a year before you learn to hone. That's not what I did but maybe I should have. What I will tell you is you definitely need to have a handle on stropping first. To save yourself a lot of anguish it's best to learn shaving, stropping and then honing in that order.
Here's an idea. You might think about a CrOx pasted strop. That will go a long way to keeping an edge fresh for a long time. I have one I got from Euclid440 that will bring the keenness right back as long as the bevel is still in good shape. That will help give you time to get a good handle on shaving and stropping before you need to move on further into honing. You've got plenty of time for that.
Edit: I've never used one but I know a lot of people like a pasted balsa paddle strap. I hear a lot of good things about those and that takes away the possibility for sagging the strop. The more things you can take out of the mix to go wrong the better.
Just an update guys I have managed to get the razor sharp again and it shaved really well again now..... thanks for all you help. The biggest help was the 60 x magnification loupe it was a godsend I was able to tell when to stop working on the stone as you can see the flaws.
The edge did have a few slight chips.... after work on the 12k and a strop on crox and leather it is great again now....