Is my grind not steep enough?

Hi all, I am a blacksmith and bladesmith, but razors are not my specialty. I am making one for my brother for christmas because he's a barber. It's a 3/4 damascus rounded end razor, about 7/32" at the spine. BUT I ground in the hollow with an 8" wheel and the grind really just doesn't look steep enough. I'm worried that as it gets sharpened and worn over time and the edge moves back, it'll be too thick to cut anything. I'll attach a pic. I don't have any 3, 4 or 6" wheels. I only got 2" and 8" as well as larger ones. Should I give it a go with the 2" or is that too small? I have yet to start on the stones, so it's not the final edge, just the edge after the grinder.

I am neither blacksmith nor bladesmith, but blades come in all types of grinds from wedge to full hollow. Check out this image and see if that helps you.

https://images.app.goo.gl/JZ8bGC7bKCRfD9Ve6

Yeah I've seen that image, but I was under the impression that the more wedge/flat grinds were much thinner at the spine. The way my razor is, I'd say it's maaayyybbeee a quarter hollow. I just don't know if mine is too thick. Would it only work for coarser hair, and not give a very close shave?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeviPrince

Yeah I've seen that image, but I was under the impression that the more wedge/flat grinds were much thinner at the spine. The way my razor is, I'd say it's maaayyybbeee a quarter hollow. I just don't know if mine is too thick. Would it only work for coarser hair, and not give a very close shave?

---

There is a general spine the width (distance from spine contact with the stone to edge of the blade) that you want to find. You want the angle to be in the 17 to 20 degree range (that is total triangle). The way knife people talk about it would be an 8-10 degree bevel angle. There are plenty of places to look it up, but I think it is something like 0.25" thick spine for a 0.75" wide razor. Here is one thread that talks about it.

https://sharprazorpalace.com/general...e-width-2.html

A straight edge razor is honed with the spine on the hone. So, technically the whole blade is the bevel. Regardless of what the grind is, you still have the hone touching the spine and the edge. If your spine is too thick you will never be able to hone it at a sharp enough angle.

By the way, that is a nice looking blade. I got so wrapped up in pretending to be smart I forgot to mention it :).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by planeden

There is a general spine the width (distance from spine contact with the stone to edge of the blade) that you want to find. You want the angle to be in the 17 to 20 degree range (that is total triangle). The way knife people talk about it would be an 8-10 degree bevel angle. There are plenty of places to look it up, but I think it is something like 0.25" thick spine for a 0.75" wide razor. Here is one thread that talks about it.

https://sharprazorpalace.com/general...e-width-2.html

A straight edge razor is honed with the spine on the hone. So, technically the whole blade is the bevel. Regardless of what the grind is, you still have the hone touching the spine and the edge. If your spine is too thick you will never be able to hone it at a sharp enough angle.

By the way, that is a nice looking blade. I got so wrapped up in pretending to be smart I forgot to mention it :).

---

Thanks alot for the info and the compliment! So I just remeasured and my blade is 3/16 at the spine with a slight hollow (because of the large wheel size). It's a 3/4 razor so I'm guessing I'd have to put some tape on the spine to get it closer to 1/4" when I hone? Also, because this is more of a quarter hollow would it only be good for coarse hair? And do you know if a 2" wheel would work to give me a full hollow or half hollow?

Close. I don't have the time at the moment to do the math but... A 1" wide blade needs a 1/4 thick spine. Go from there. 4 to 1 is the magic number. So you're in the ballpark. I read a lot of folks use 4 to 6-inch wheels for grinding. But I have never made one so its just what I remember reading. A Razor Maker will be along shortly.

I am not a razor maker but I can say the looks good to the eye to me. The required spine width for a specific blade width stays the same no matter the grind in order to come to a 17 degree inclusive bevel angle, not 17 degrees per side. You can be plus/minus 2 degrees and still be in the ballpark for a razor. The blade width is from the point of contact on the spine to the edge of the blade and not necessarily from the top of the spine which could be higher than the point of contact.

No matter the grind, so long as the bevel angle is correct and the razor has been honed to shave ready, it will give you a good shave.

I am sure some of the razor makers will be along shortly to help you out.

Bob

My rule of thumb for stock removal razors is that the total blade width should be planned as 4x the stock thickness, i.e. the spine thickness. So 3/16" spine thickness is good for a 6/8 razor, in my book. I shoot for a finished bevel angle of 16 to 17 degrees. Most commonly used razor steels will support that just fine if you don't grind too thin prior to quench. Your 8" contact wheel will do fine for initial hollowgrinding, but you will want your 2" wheel to push the hollow higher up into the spine.

Nice job on the pattern welding. Nice appearance,.unique.

Oh cool, more experiened people showed up. But, the grind should not have any difference on hair texture. Again, regardless of the grind the edge of the blade will be at the same angle. So a wedge and full hollow grind will be equally sharp (all else being equal).

As for the tape question...I'll just say it is a matter of personal preference. The effect on the bevel angle is pretty small. If you have never honed a razor you may want to hire someone to do it. Or if your brother does hone them, give it to him dull and let him do it. It isn't brain surgery, but it takes a bit to learn. I wouldn't try to learn it in a handmade razor that was to be a gift. If you are going to do it yourself, I would definately use tape (3M electrical).

The hollowness of the grind is more of a preference issue. It won't effect the shave or hair type as previously stated. Some people prefer a stiffer blade so the wedge is more what they would want. Some like a light, more flexible blade so a hollow would be more their pick. It's a different feel but they will both shave equally as well when shave ready. The one thing is that a true wedge hones a little differently because more of the blade face contacts the hone. Also it will often have a wider bevel. I always use tape on the spine regardless to minimize hone wear. There is a school of thought that the edge and the spine should wear at the same rate to maintain the correct angle but if you hone correctly it will be a long time before that becomes an issue. Also there are tricks to it that make the edge more durable preventing the need to hone as often but now we are getting into more advanced honing techniques. If you're not proficient at the basics then that just becomes background noise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by planeden

...
By the way, that is a nice looking blade. I got so wrapped up in pretending to be smart I forgot to mention it :).

---

Ditto that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeviPrince

I just remeasured and my blade is 3/16 at the spine . It's a 3/4 razor so I'm guessing I'd have to put some tape on the spine... And do you know if a 2" wheel would work to give me a full hollow or half hollow?

---

If the grind goes all the way to the top of the spine one layer of electrical tape will give you 15.26º which would be what I would personally shoot for. If your grind does not go all the way to the top the angle will be greater. If your brother is new to straights a more obtuse angle may be more appropriate, but I would not go beyond 2 layers.

There is no mathematical rule for what constitutes 1/2 hollow, 1/4 hollow, etc. but with my way of thinking a 5" wheel on a 6/8 razor (leaving a 1/16" or so of spine un ground) would give you a quarter hollow. And a 4" wheel should get you close to a half hollow. The wheel diameters act more true to size as your skill improves. For a full hollow I'd be following the 4" with a 1.5".

The 8" wheel will be a near wedge. I'm personally not fond of heavy grinds, but it should shave fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Ditto that.

---

HEY! The nice looking blade or that I am pretending to be smart? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bluesman7

There is no mathematical rule for what constitutes 1/2 hollow, 1/4 hollow, etc.

---

This has often puzzled or irritated me. Everyone has seen the chart with the razor end views and roman numerals and common names of grinds, but comparing a blade to the drawings is pretty subjective. Actually quantifying grind would make an excellent discussion topic some day. There SHOULD be some measurable standard for determining the grind of a razor, even if only for use on the various razor forums where members often agonize over minutae.

There you go. Bluesman makes razors so Id go with his words more than the rest of us. Although we all were not too far off.
Thanks Victor!

When it comes to engineering a razor, Victor knows how to apply the math (sometimes bondo) to reach a desired grind. You can fake that stuff or rely on quotes you have read. Some of his blades are wonderfully thin. I listen to him and I happen to make a blade here and there.

Hi Levi, and welcome to SRP! As a Winnipegger-in-exile, it's good to see someone from my hometown here. :)

+1 to the advice above, particularly to that of Victor (google bluesman blades if you're wondering why we're happy to defer to his knowledge and skill!).

Personally, I love heavy grinds, but plenty of others hate them and will only go for razors with super hollow grinds. As with *many* things in the world of straight razor shaving, there is a great deal of subjectivity on this question. What I like, your brother may hate. What works for Scott might be a nightmare for Jerry, etc., and so on... But other things are really well established and shouldn't be deviated from too much, and one of those is the bevel angle. Make that right and it will shave. IMHO what happens between the bevel and the spine (i.e. the hollowness of the grind) is very much a matter of personal preference.

That's a fine looking blade you have there. I like the bold pattern.

It is all rather subjective. And I daresay that most of us who grind razors shoot for something in a ballpark range, based on experience. I've seen the charts. The problem is that not only is it terribly subjective to compare what you have with a paper chart, but when we are grinding, we are essentially just starting with something near wedge shaped. We use a wheel with a radius that is smaller than the hollow to 'scoop out' more steel.

Not only does this mean that one side is marginally different from the other, but also that the exact geometry of the hollow itself is not circular nor following a predictable curve. Most of us are able to grind consistently by virtue of doing it over and over. Even so, what I call half hollow is not going to be exactly the same as what Charlie would call it for example.

To answer the question, there are really 2 ways to go more hollow with the tools you have
a) make a bigger razor.
b) use the 2" wheel to scoop out steel.

When using the 2" wheel, you'd simply grind from spine to edge repeatedly until you've removed enough metal to make it noticeably hollow.