I am a little fascinated!!

Being new to this forum I am fascinated by what I read - it was my son that steered me toward your forum. I point out that I am not new to using a razor, my one and only has served me well some 44 years.

What I find facinating is that I did not realize that shaving was so difficult, as is getting an edge on a razor.

Experience tells me it is not rocket science. There seems to be a lot of discussion given to what is the definitive edge - it's simple - one that works.

I would make the observation that a number of people are looking for a scalpel edge, when in fact you are not using a scalpel, you are using a razor. Consider that the 'definitive' or finest edge is not necessarily the best edge, as it becsue of its definition it is fragile and I would argue that an edge like that would need particular care, be easily damaged and a lot of time would be spent on the hone, and you would end up wearing the razor away.

I would only put my razor to the hone only a few times a year, it is stropped lightly on leather before and after each shave and about once every 3-4 weeks it is stropped on linen using a very fine abrasive paste.

Believe it or not it is only in the last few weeks that I came to find out about stropping paste. In past years I would buy polishing paste from a spectacle maker and use that.

For many years the hone I used belonged to my grandfather - he died in 1954 - it is black, hard with brown swirls through it. I think it might be an Arkansas stone.

As I do a fair bit of woodwork I guess I am used to edged tools, and over more recent years have used a Japanese water stone to get a final edge on chisels and planes, I also use this stone now as my razor hone I think its about 8000 grit.

One final thing, when using a hone, in order to get a good edge, it must be flat. Every now and then, if I feel the stone is 'out of flat' I have a piece of 6mm glass and using about 180 grit wet and dry paper - used wet - the water will stick the paper t to the glass, rub the stone over the wet and dry until you see the stone is once again flat. It will cut better and you will get a better result.

I have never bothered to look at an edge through a loupe. I reckon that would lead to inventing to your problems that don't really exist.

I live a bit by the addage 'If it ain't broke - don't fix it'

I do thank you all for your initial feed back. I will be interested to see what reaction this will now bring

Regards

Hi Colin:

I agree with what you have to say. The problem is that simplicity is very hard to achieve and many of us started out with a very heavy-handed technique before we learned to be more delicate. I think that you were fortunate or maybe you picked up this knowledge from your grandfather, which I did not have the opportunity to do.

Well said, Colin. Maintaining a shave-ready razor doesn't have to be complicated or difficult.

Welcome to the forum buddy.

Did your father teach you to shave, strop and hone?

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Originally Posted by Colin Howkins

I have never bothered to look at an edge through a loupe. I reckon that would lead to inventing to your problems that don't really exist.

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Oh but the fun we have solving imaginary problems and proving wacky theories!

I like to think I can get a perfectly smooth face by shaving with a straight, but haven't been able to yet. The search continues for me - in the meantime I still enjoy my straight razor shaves :)

I'm with you brother! Simplicity is the key.:tu

Colin,

I'm guessing you are apretty handy guy. I also didn't have a huge number of problems when I first learned to hone my razo, I actually had more problems learning to hold it and shave with it. I was being to delicate at first. A lot of guys, however, have no mechanical knowledge, they plain aren't handy. Heck I know a guy that can't change the oil in his truck without a three pag einstruction manual, and another that prefers using screws for minor repairs simply because nails are to difficult to drive. It's for these guys that we try to break it down into the smallest instructional pieces possible.

Plus we each have our own little tricks that work for us but really can't be easily taught to one another in words. There are guys on here who are dedicated to every different type of sharpening medium known to man, and that sparks discussion over which works best and which is fastest and which is easiest to learn.

All this stuff is really simple till you rtry to teach it without many pictures to a guy halfway round the world who has no apptitude for hands on work at all.

Colin, I felt much the same as you when I found this site, and still do to some degree, but I have realized that many here are not as adept to picking up and understanding the physics involved in shaving with a straight and sharpening such an instrument, just as I have been using this computer for over a year and still can't wrap my head around it! It appears to be very simple, and I am told so everyday, but I still have trouble! I think computers and the lack of physical labor required in the work place today has seriously changed the way we think and approach things!

Confounded, new fangled devices anyhow!:rant::D

I think along the same lines. I was shocked when I read a post about sharpening stones that were over $300, and 15,000 or 20,000 grit. My finest stone is 8000, and I paid less than $40 for it. Between that, a cheap paddle strop with aluminum oxide, and my strop, I am able to get what I think are great shaves.

Most guys just end up with a stone that is waaaaay too fast, but don't get the concept at all. Its like telling someone they can't handle their hot wife, their fast car, or their credit card limit. Its a bad subject; truth or not. Then, on top of that, everyone wants to do whatever they want to do. The whole idea of just following rules is just so . . . not cool. Then, trying to explain this stuff without pics, video, or a sense of how things should feel, and its totally crazy.

Colin, jump on one of these threads where your trying to explain to someone how to hone a razor you can't even see, and you'll start to appreciate the problem. One wrong word on your part and the guy is out spending $300 on a hone in a heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by Colin Howkins

Experience tells me it is not rocket science. There seems to be a lot of discussion given to what is the definitive edge - it's simple - one that works.

I would make the observation that a number of people are looking for a scalpel edge, when in fact you are not using a scalpel, you are using a razor. Consider that the 'definitive' or finest edge is not necessarily the best edge, as it becsue of its definition it is fragile and I would argue that an edge like that would need particular care, be easily damaged and a lot of time would be spent on the hone, and you would end up wearing the razor away.

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I thought the edges of our razors are sharper than scalpels, but I'm not a surgeon :)
As far as stropping pastes go a polishing paste for spectacles should be equivalent to over 30 000 grit cutting media. It seems the same thing, just different markets.

And yeah we do need to invent problems and then solve them - this whole website revolves around this. You end up here with the very basic problem - 'how can I spend most of my disposable income on shaving stuff when the cartridges gillette sells are so cheap?' but once you've found the quick and obvious answer you need to keep inventing problems, or you are excommunicated from the community... Just the facts of life...

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Its like telling someone they can't handle their hot wife, their fast car, or their credit card limit. Its a bad subject; truth or not.

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Alan if you have trouble handling your hot wife, fast car or credit card limit, just let me know - I'll be happy to handle them for you for a bit! My pleasure :)

Every problem solves itself!

The hot wife jumps in the fast car with the highest limit credit card!

Colin,
Welcome to the forum, we look forwards to hearing more pointers...

Hot wives not withstanding, you bring an interesting point. I do believe that eventually many of us get to a similar place as you are. When I first started this stuff (only 5 years ago, not 44...) I had the mindset that it must be difficult to hone a razor to sharpness. I obsessed with one test or the other, and must have cleaned almost all of my wife's brushes to find hairs for the hanging hair test. I was using only barber hones and a Spyderco sharpmaker. Then I got a Norton, and resumed...then a microscope from Radio Shack-and for awhile I was a "believer". Then I ordered one of the first new Belgian coticules from Howard-ok, several of them..then a few other hones... Then I broke my Norton and my technique dropped sharply for awhile as I dabbled heavily in DE's and injectors and the like. After awhile I caught the bug again, and met a (then) new guy on the forums, and he showed me how he did the thumbpad test. I had discounted it out of hand previously but David-credit to you, I would have never tried it had you not shown me the thing. For me there was HHT and only HHT.
Well...
Where I am I going with this? I think I've come full circle. When I'm setting the edge on a razor, I just do a thumbnail test (does the thing grab?) then strop the thing perhaps a little heavier than I should, and *usually* no test or anything, it's ready to shave. I don't know. It's like the thing just got simple, or easy.
Go figure I guess, but it seems the more I worry about an edge (some looked mirror smooth under the microscope, when I was doing that) the worse it shaves. When I just set the bevel decent and then strop it smooth-the thing shaves great.
I guess I could have just said,
+1,
but just wanted to point out that I think it is a circular route often ending in simplicity. I know I'm not the only one out here now not really doing HHT's or Thumbpad tests or any of that anymore, and I think while those are great measures, after awhile it seems they are needed less?

Your thoughts?


John P.

John, do you mean that you use one stone to 'set the bevel' and once you're done, just strop for a while and you're happy? That does sound simple.
If so, which is your magic stone? I'm way early in the circle and kind of want to take a peek at the other end... no I don't read the end of books first :)

Pretty much that's what I do. It may be laziness, also. No magic stone, either. Right now I have just a plain old (ok, they *used* to be rare and exotic) Belgian yellow. I work it down with slurry until it starts to "grab" then a couple passes with just water or maybe a hit on the barber hone. When it passes the thumbnail test I give it one or more swipes (I'm obsessive about the thing, and I guess I worry that I've harmed my edge a little with the test) I then go straight to the strop.
I'm a little heavy on the strop at first, then progressively lighten the stroke as I go. I also go quick, which may or may not be a good idea, it's just habit.
After that, I shave. When it starts pulling again, back to the strop. It *does* pass the HHT etc, but after awhile it seems that if the razor already shaves well, those tests are a given. Possibly if I were stropping the razor to sell or use on someone *else* I would still try those tests on it, of course, but I just find myself not using them lately, and still having good results.

FWIW the razor I've been using this week is an Eicker 5/8 round point, cryo tempered stainless. Wonderful razor, I like it more every time I shave with it.

Last week I used a Case travel razor purchased a couple years ago from Tommyrazor on ebay. I paid market value, sure, but it would go for a lot more today, and I've not seen another one since. Love those razors, they travel great!


Hope I haven't set anyone astray by my unorthodox theories here, I just think it gets to a point where we are obsessing over the edge, and using finer and finer microscopes, etc. when barbers were using almost none of these things and shaving many people, using just simple tests.

John P.

John P, I completely agree with what you are saying. I've been at the straight razor "thing" for over a year now and went through that hone progression pretty quickly only to realize that I was probably over doing it. After reading many posts and "talking" with many experienced people on this site I just let go and began to listen to my razors on the hone. When a blade "feels" ready, then I strop and shave. If the shave is subpar I go back to the hone. I have a Radio Shack micro but I really only use it to check for chips in the blade now. The best test is the shave test, and that is what I go by now. Have had a few razors that haven't passed the HHT but shaved great. Go figure!

You use the tools that are right for you, and the knowledge you have at the time. And if that doesn't work, send your razor to Lynn. :D

Definitely an interesting point. I've gone the other way, or perhaps I'm just making a delayed start to my circle...

For a long time (relatively speaking, only been doing this a few years) I just shaved off the 8k side of the Norton, sometimes with a little work on a strop pasted with Dovo red paste which I gather is 3 micron. I was perfectly content with the shaves.

But recently, I started to wonder about the green grass I was seeing on the horizon - Eschers, Shaptons, Japanese, ....

I think, on a forum like this, it's fairly natural to get curious about what others are using and saying works well. Being isolated can work both ways - you find what works, and you stick to it. Then, you suddenly become exposed to other things and you start to wonder whether you might not just get a better shave if ...., even though what you've been doing has worked fine. And I think that really, a lot of us are isolated.

I do agree, what we are doing is not really rocket science. Stick a sharp thing to your face and scrape is really all it boils down to. But when it becomes a hobby, well...

So yeah, keeping it simple is good. But there's nothing wrong with making it more complicated if you want to either. In fact, in this ever-changing world in which we live, we need people to try the new stuff, compare it to the old stuff, critique, review, test, etc. After all, how will we ever know if we don't try?

James.

Those are good points, and I think my analogy got lost. The 4K is too fast a hone for most people and hitting the exact number of strokes too hard. A single slow stone will get you where you want easily.

One important key, once you throw away all the tests (besides shaving) is that you begin to accept that stropping will achieve the end result sharpness, so the grit of the stone you use is practically pointless.

Besides using a reasonably high (slow) grit stone, the honemiester secret is that they strop the razor before sending it out.

I don't know about everyone who has posted here essentially saying that the difference between coming off a really high grit and just a high grit is negligible, but I notice a definite difference between a shave coming off of an 8k grit and a shave coming off of a higher grit. And of course after strapping - who wouldn't strap after honing?

Anyway, it may not be necessary to use the really high grits, but it can still be beneficial. Use what works for you, and I'll keep trying to find out what works best for me. It's fun, enjoyable, and rewarding to do that, and there really are enough variables between different people regarding their hair and skin and different razors regarding their material properties that you can't really say one sharpening or shaving method is best for everyone.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I and there really are enough variables between different people regarding their hair and skin and different razors regarding their material properties that you can't really say one sharpening or shaving method is best for everyone.

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Well you could say one method is the only method, but, people are likely to point and laugh!";"

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Originally Posted by JMS

Well you could say one method is the only method, but, people are likely to point and laugh!";"

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True, you can say it, but like I said, you can't really say it - say, did I say said and say enough or does more need to be said?

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

True, you can say it, but like I said, you can't really say it - say, did I say said and say enough or does more need to be said?

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I say!!:roflmao

Yes less is more! been at the straight razor thing for the better part of 30 years. and until last year i was quite happy with Carborundum #200 and a natural Belgium combo. they were what i started with and are great fro keeping a good razor shaving sharp. unfortunately the buying and cleaning of ebay junkers requires a more equipment or time... for me it made sense to buy the Norton's, DMT plates and now finally Shaptons.... do i need them all not at all.

but collecting these things as many of us know is addictive. for me first it was the razors then a dozen strops then hones.. thank goodness i found colleens soap and was able to stop there, same with shavemac brushes--- i only kept 2 of them the rest were easy to part with.

but had i not found here i would have been content with the gear i was given as a kid or later inherited....

as for the real high grit hones i just got the shapton 16k and 30k... and have honed up 2 razors with them and they are sweet they would have needed a pasted paddle after the yellow coticule if i followed my regular routine.

for most they do not need lots of other things we buy... but as long as you have the cash money to spend... there are worse hobbies.