I can't quite get to shave ready...

Here's my set up. A Japanese 1k/6k waterstone. The Norton 4k/8k waterstone. A Belgian Blue polishing stone. And a made in Pakistan strop from Amazon.com/. No strop paste.

My razors are all antique store finds and Ebay specials.

I did the conservative pyramid, followed by the standard pyramid. I did this about two times each because I just thought the blades were in pretty rough shape. Which they were. But I can't get them shave ready. I then honed them without the pyramid, using the heel first method to create hatch marks(one to two back strokes) before moving up to the next stone. And then honed until they were gone.

I can get them to shave the hair on my arm easily. And it seems like they are passing the thumb pad test. But they won't pass the hanging hair test. And they are giving a really rough test shave.

Am I just holding the razor wrong? Am I just not doing enough strokes? Can anyone give me an idea of how many strokes/passes I should be doing with my set up?

The most important part in troubleshooting something is figuring out where are you at.
Easily shaving arm hair is a good sign and passing TPT is a good sign as well. Do you know what TPT should feel like? Have you tried your everyday razor with TPT to know where it must be?

Yeah, I've used the thumb pad test on a Charles Monsieur straight razor that has disposable blades. I just can't seem to get it up to snuff. I've put in two hours of just honing nice and slow working my way up the grits, but it doesn't seem like I'm making progress.

Hmmm. There's a lot of advice possible.

1. I think the most important thing in bringing an old razor back to life is setting the bevel. For that, I'd recommend that you use a magic marker to mark the shaving edge of the blade and work the low grits (I start with my 1k stone).

2. While others will certainly disagree, I find the best results occur when you have something between an 8k stone and your strop. Some folks use a 10k/16k stone, some use chromium oxide (green) or diamond paste. After that, you can use newspaper for stropping, which adds a really nice polish and sharpness.

3. I suspect many folks will suggest getting a high quality strop, like those Tony Miller. Seems to me to be good advice -- your razor touches your strop more often than anything else, even than your face, and they're relatively inexpensive (particularly for the quality of a TM handmade strop!), so why not work with the best? I say "others will suggest" because I started with a TM strop, and have never used the Pakistan made ones, so YMMV.

4. Even a relatively dull razor will shave the hair from your arm if you shave it like your face -- a good test, particularly if you don't want to be pulling hair out of your head all the time, is to run the razor over your arm, spine touching but blade lifted slightly. If the hairs pop off, you're there. Given what you have, without buying more stuff, a polish (50 stokes?) with newspaper after the 8k may help.

5. Lynn Abrams has a great video that has all the info needed for a new entrant into straight shaving. It will repay it's initial cost within a few days in time lost to bad honing, shaving, and other frustrations.

6. Perhaps the most offered advice on this forum is to get a razor sharpened by one of the many honemeisters to shave-readyness. It's useful to see where you need to be for a good shave.

7. Keep at it. Some Razors are harder to deal with than others, and, if my experience is any example, there is much to learn in the beginning, and the middle, and so on. But it's great fun, and a great shave is something to look forward to.

Of course, there are many more experienced than I, and their advice is undoubtedly worth more. But I'm just starting out as well, and have brought auction razors to HHT sharpness, thanks mostly to advice by folks here. I'm just passing on what I've learned through reading the forum and helpful answers to my questions. Always remember, if it was fast and easy, everyone would be doing it. Most folks do it, seems to me, because of the craft -- which takes some time and effort to learn. But this is a great community, and a storehouse of a great amount of collected knowledge. And always remember: it's possible.

Best of luck,

cass

Whoops. Forgot the most important part:

In setting the bevel, after you use the magic marker, hone on one of your low grit stones (1k/4k). That allows you to see whether the bevel is even, and whether you're honing the entire length of the blade. The bevel should be even, and span the entire length of the blade.

Often, this is the problem -- and no amount of higher grits will help unless you've set a good bevel initially. Blades with a curve, sometimes called 'smiling,' can be particularly challenging. (see posts on the 'rolling x stroke' for more info on how to sharpen a smiling blade).

cheers,

cass

I'm starting to suspect my problem is my bevel setting. I've been lurking here for a while and it seems like that's what trips most people up.

Now, I know the bevel should run the entire length of the blade, but should the bevel be the same width down the blade as well?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by biggbadwulff

I'm starting to suspect my problem is my bevel setting. I've been lurking here for a while and it seems like that's what trips most people up.

Now, I know the bevel should run the entire length of the blade, but should the bevel be the same width down the blade as well?

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The honing and stropping is the base to have a good shave out of your Str8... Of course, you have to be regular on setting a bevel on it... and if after all the pyramid process, you still have a rough shave, you may consider to use diamond paste (fast cutter), chromium oxyde (0,5 micron) and/or some great stuff that I am using (less than 0,5 micron)..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by biggbadwulff

Now, I know the bevel should run the entire length of the blade, but should the bevel be the same width down the blade as well?

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Not necessarily, but if it isn't it is a signature of uneven hone wear and wrong geometry, so I'd pick another razor to learn on. Check the wear on the spine. If it's uniform and your bevel is systematically uneven it's likely that you're putting uneven pressure.
Magnification can be quite useful as well.

Lastly it appears you've chosen to do this the hard way - nothing wrong with that, but you should be prepared that this will take you longer. I always recommend that people start with already honed razor and first do just touch-ups.

The magic marker trick seems to have helped. I can now get the razor to pop the hairs on my arm when I put the heel to my skin and leave the edge up a bit. Is that enough though? It still won't pop a hair from my head. I have really fine hair by the way.

The only for sure way is to lather up and shave with it! Everything else is just a test. Shaving is the real thing.

Don't forget to strop it up: light or no pressure on the blade, with the strop held tight. You might consider stropping it up on newspaper (stretched tight over something -- I read a post where someone used a book) for 50 or so passes, which will add to polish and a smoother shave.

Be sure to let us know how it turns out!

cass

You're close. If the last hone your razor hit was the 8k for at least 10-15 laps, strop and test.

good luck

I usually finish on chromium oxide, but last night I tried some different stuff, just for fun. I cut a 3 inch wide peice of MDF and glued a piece of glass of the same size to the MDF. I then taped down some newspaper tighly on the stone, and smeared a little bit of Mothers Aluminum and metal polish on hte newspaper, and stropped about 30 - 40 times. Since the glass is extremely flat and the polish is very fine, you could even do it a couple of hundred times probably and not over hone. Then I replaced the used newspaper with fresh, and stropped about a hundred times on the plain newspaper, i.e. no polish. The shave was surprisingly good. This was a on a 7/8 crown and sword 1/2 grind.
I felt no need to finish on a chromium oxide strop at all. The shave was very smooth.
It's dirt cheap, and you can even just pull the glass out of a picture frame and lay it on your table instead of gluing it to MDF.

You mentioned the belgian blue - it's not really considered a polishing stone. In terms of grit I would place it between your 4k and 8k norton. Your 8k norton would be your finest stone, most likely. Actually, in comparison to most other 8k waterhones, I think the norton ranks to be more of about a 6000 grit stone. I would finish your pyramids or whatever you want to do on the Norton, as gugi said 10 to 15 passes on the norton as a final stone, then go to your local auto store and pick up some Mothers polish. 30 - 40 passes on the mothers, then about a hundred on the newspaper. Provided you've set a good bevel to begin with as the others have pointed out, you should be able to have a good shave off of this. It's dirt cheap, and dang effective.

Good Luck!

How many pieces of newspaper are you using by the way? Just one, or a whole section's worth?

Wolff, I think you need to go back to basics. If your bevel is set, do a medium pyramid on the Norton combo and nothing else. That Belgian Blue may be the problem right there as it's not really a finisher. Test shave. If it's not quite there, wait a day or two and do 3, 1/3 laps and test again. If you're shaving and you just want it to stop pulling a little bit. Strop on newspaper for about 30 or 40 laps. That should help.

X

I agree, and that's what I did. I did the pyramid skipping the Belgian and then did the newspaper. I got a pretty good shave out of it too. But I must admit, it wasn't as smooth as it could have been.

I cut some newspaper and taped it to a 3''x5'' piece of glass from a picture frame and did 150 passes. I did so many because my newspaper strop was so small. How many layers of newspaper is recommended? I could feel the double-sided tape on the passes when I used just one piece of paper.

I use a piece of stair spindle, cut in half and sanded flat, and I wrap the newspaper tight around it and fasten it with a binder clip on the back side. I use one sheet of newsprint folded in half twice, (which makes four layers). I don't know what others do, but it works for me. Sounds like your method is okay, but I'd attach the tape in the back so there's no bumps.

cass

Don't use double sided tape. Tape one end down, then pull the newspaper taught, apply tape to the other end. If you think of it like a football field, then the tape is only on hte endzones, while the 100 yards inbetween is only newspaper with just glass underneath. Don't use double sided tape underneath, just put tape it from the top. I use 1" wide painters tape to ensure that I get plenty of adhesion. I use just one piece of paper.

As X said, Bevel setting is key.

Do you strop with leather too? Or do you just use your glass and leather setup?

I always do about 60 passes on a hanging leather strop before each shave.

Is that to give it a smoother shave? Because I'm doing about a hundred passes on the newspaper/glass set up, but it's not as super smooth as it could be. It's smooth, but sill not as smooth as my disposable straight's blades. Or is this just indicative of not enuff honing?

Sorry to take a bit to post - I've been out of town showing off my new daughter :) The leather does burnish or smoothen the edge - at least for my face it does. Last week one time I touched up the edge of a Griffon 67 on my hanging chromium oxide canvas strop, and I completely forgot to strop on the leather. I got a smooth shave as it was....

If you aren't able to get a smooth shave it may be due to your need for an intermediate stone. When you finish with the 8000 norton, you are creating microscopic points on the edge, like this:

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

When you use the paste and newspaper, It could be that you are only rounding those points, and the edge ends up looking like this:

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

But, to get a very smooth shave, you want the edge to look like this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps an intermediate stone, like the chinese 12K, could be a great solution to your problems. Woodcraft sells them for 20 dollars (6x2) or 30 dollars (8x3), and they are fantastic deals for the results they get. Either that, or try more passes on the polish.....

Good luck,

Thanks. That would make sense. I even took the time to go back and make sure my bevel was good and then did the 4k/8k. Then did the glass/newspaper, then some leather. And I was pretty much in the same place I was to begin with.

Bigbad - if I understand right, your progression right now starts with a bevel setting stone (1k side of 1/6 japanese?), then the 4/8k norton, then newspaper on glass. This is about the same as just finishing on hte 8k norton. The newspaper and glass is a VERY slow method and only meant for extreme final finishing.

Try getting some metal polish, and applying that to some newspaper, then doing a bunch of passes on that. THEN the PLAIN newspaper. Without something between the 8k and plain paper, you're just wasting your time. Peeks, Mothers, Flitz, Maas, all are good options to try.

The best option is a finer stone, but the metal polish has been used by many with good results. It's a bit slower than some stones, but it can get the job done.

Ben

I'll do that. I've got some Maas metal polish. Should I make another glass/newspaper strop for the metal polish? Or do you do this just on a bench? Also, should I let the metal polish dry on the newspaper? Or should I strop while it's still wet?

newspaper and polish comes pretty cheap, so I just tape down a piece of newspaper, then apply the polish. Don't go overboard with the polish, I usually do only a two inch strip in the middle. Provided the paper stays taught, you can start right away, no need to wait for it to dry. When I'm done with hte polish, I pull it off, and tape down a clean piece of newspaper.

making another setup couldn't hurt, though, as you're sure to get some chromium oxide one day, and will need a place to put it!

Good luck,

I recently bought this Kohl Strop Paste off Amazon.com/. It's not arrived yet though. The ingredients are not listed. But is considered a chromium oxide paste?

i believe this is strop conditioning paste - non-abrasive.

Ok, then here's a stupid question. What's a good brand of chromium oxide to buy and where can I get it?

Well, some gents here will tell you that hand american is the only place in the world to get it, and they would not be steering you toward a bad product. Very good quality stuff. I've got a 6 oz bar from Lee valley tools, as their compound is limited to a 0.5 micron particle size. Beware of other chromium oxide bars, however, as they are often mixed with larger particle carriers/abraisives.

If I were buying some right now, I'd buy it from Dave Martell at Japaneseknifesharpening.com. He's a great guy, and very active on the kitchen section of Knifeforums.com. He's one of very few retailers of Hand American products, and seems to carry more of their stuff than anyone else. The "liquid" chromium oxide is what I would get.

Find it here: JapaneseKnifeSharpening.com

Ben

Hey thanks. I guess I'll have to get the 12k stone and the paste ordered before I can make some progress in my honing techniques.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by biggbadwulff

Ok, then here's a stupid question. What's a good brand of chromium oxide to buy and where can I get it?

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The powder version can be bought in the classifieds section of this forum.

The paste version can be bought from Straight Razor Designs and is the same stuff Mastro Livi uses on their pasted strops.

Whichever you choose GO EASY on the stuff. You want just enough to barely see it on the strop. Don't make the mistake of turning your strop into a pool table felt look.

I'm so close I can almost taste it. My 12k stone finally came today. But I'm still waiting on the paste. I went with the Lee Valley paste because the liquid was out of stock.

I did about 50-80 laps on the 12k then about a hundred on my newspaper/Maas setup. Then I did a test shave. And I'm close, real close now. I think I'm at the stage where my blade is like 'mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm', but it's hard to describe. Not only can I feel a difference, but I can still hear a difference. I keep hearing these little tink,tink noises, when I should be hearing zeh, zeh, zeh noises.

Do you have any particular rule of thumb for how many passes you make on the 12k?

I use a microscope like this one Amazon.com: Micromax 60-100x Zoom Pocket Microscope w/Light: Electronics to see when I'm there. I bought mine at radio shack (they had to order it, but can send it direct to your house for free if you order it in store.... ) and it works great.

I don't think I've ever had to go more than 80 or so passes on the 12k, but I've got a relatively fine stone before the chinese. You may have to do more. Perhaps someone who goes directly from the norton to the chinese 12k can chip in with some advice here on this one.

Or, you can try Tim Zowada's double bevel technique. Some people aren't crazy about it, but it has worked well for many others. Read up about it here. http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...o-updated.html In Tim's first post, he has a link to his double bevel method, and the rest is people's experience with it. Just remember that to use the polish on newspaper that you have to have the same number of tape layers on the razor to ensure that the cutting bevel comes in contact with the abrasive. If you use a pasted hanging strop as a touch up when your chromium oxide comes in, you don't use tape when using the hanging strop.

Also, be careful when shaving after using the chromium oxide. I know that's a "No Duh" statement, but it deserves repeating. The edge is sharp and smooth afterward, and if you use a high angle when shaving it can cut you much easier than it used to. On my chromium-treated razors, I typically keep the angle 1 to 1.5 spine widths off my face. I generally use the lowest cutting angle that gives good results, and ever since I've adopted this approach, I get much fewer nicks.

You should be able to get a decent shave right off the Chinese 12k, but the pastes will definitely help smooth out the edge.

Good luck!

I certainly hope the paste will help. The 12k has moved me a whole lot closer. I did about 80-100 passes on it. Then I did linen then leather. But I did a side by side comparison with my disposable straight with a brand new blade and it still feels like I'm a long ways away. Is this a sign that my honing technique is crap? Or that I never set my bevel right? Or that my blade is warped? Or is using pastes that much of a miracle worker?

I just got my paste today. I assume I applied it correctly. I used that Kohl strop paste that you said was a strop conditioner and applied it to my strop. It said you needed something like a hard fat to use as a binder. And I read here that you need to use something as a binder and the conditioner seemed like a good choice. Then I made some shavings off my block and mixed it with water. I used very little and it was more than enuff. Then I did about 100 passes.

Oh, and I used the double bevel method too. From what I read it sounded like it made sense. I used tape when I was setting the bevel to preserve the spine, why not more tape when I was using the polishing stone? I can already tell a big difference just from my side by side comparison thumb pad test with my disposable straight. I just have to test shave it now.

I think it was gugi who said it was strop paste, but since it's made in Germany, they probably did stick to the color scheme - ie. Yellow = strop paste. When it was said that you needed a carrier, some people say that you need something to mix the powder chromium oxide in so that it stays better. I believe you got the bar chromium oxide, which typically doesn't need a carrier, for me at least. However, it shouldn't hurt a thing.

This is a pic of a razor edge finished on the chinese 12k:

http://www.tzknives.com/site/Photos/...l/China1Sm.jpg

Here is one with Chromium oxide, 10 laps:

http://www.tzknives.com/site/Photos/...ll/CrO10Sm.jpg


Thanks to T. Zowada for the pics.

You can see that the edge is dang good after the 12k, but great after the Chromium oxide.


You have all the tools necessary to get these results now - if not, then technique is the factor.

Remember that a great razor and poor shaving technique can feel like a poorly honed razor. A confident stroke is much smoother than an apprehensive stroke, and pulls MUCH less.

Good luck!

I just did my test shave, and I must say I'm pretty happy. I won't say my blade is up to a honemeister's level, but I just got a smooth shave off a razor that I bought dull from an antique store. I guess my next goal should be perfection.

Just wanted to update. I just had my big red truck moment. I was doing the double bevel idea and was thinking about my blade in general. Seems like there's lots of time to think while honing. I should have thought of it sooner, but I bought my blade used from an antique store. The spine was worn from the get go.

I could nearly kick myself for missing something so obvious. I knew it was there. I tape to keep it from getting worse. It's not anything that would keep it from being a good shaver, but enough to make that super smooth shave harder to attain and cost me a lot of time. So, I did three layers of electrical tape and did a pyramid. And when I did my thumb pad test, I unexpectedly cut myself. I didn't even feel it begin to cut me.

After I got the bandaid on, I could only think about how sharp that felt.

I've been having problems getting my blades sharp enough for a good shave as well. My hair is very short, so I can't do a HHT. My arm hairs are very fine, and I have not been able to pop them like is normally explained. TPT felt good. I've been getting mediocre shaves, and finishing up with a M3. I had one fantastic shave, but that was with a week's worth of growth. My daily shaves were not good at all.

Yesterday I read someone say something about holding the spine two widths off your face when you shave. Changing that angle on my face this morning made all the difference. I don't think it was my honing skills at all, but simply my technique that was bad. I'm excited to try again tomorrow.
J.

I've been working on my technique as well. It's one thing to have someone tell you how to do something, and another when you actually do it. I may be completely wrong, but I think I can hold my blade steeper than when using a disposable straight. And then when I try to use a regular straight my angle is off.

I've been wondering if anyone else thinks the same thing. It's probably a good question for the shaving section.