The more I find out, the more questions I have...

Hello everyone!

I've just bought a new Cyril Salter straight edge which I gather won't arrive shave-ready, so I've also bought a Belgian BBW hone to set it up. I have a few questions about this:

As I have never honed before, what technique should I use? I was planning to do 5 strokes either way in the x pattern, then 20-30 on the strop, then test via hair and thumb pad (sticky blade) and then repeat if it didn't seem sharp enough. Does that sound reasonable? Also, can someone describe how much pressure to apply when honing? I imagine it to be similar to rolling something like a Rice Krispie without crushing it - does that seem about right, or should it be even less?

Also - does anyone here have any experience of the Salter razors? What do you think?

Plus - if I'm planning to (eventually!) shave this way every day, should I get another razor so the blades have time to recover?

Thanks very much in advance for your advice - it's greatly appreciated!

The Salter is a pretty good, middle of the road blade. Good weight and balance. They can rust if you blow on them though, so keep it dry and clean.

Your pressure idea is okay. Keep it light.

The technique/strategy might be a little too slow, but its a decent plan. It might take a while to get anywhere but eventually it could could work.

I don't think you'll have enough experience to discerne the thumbpad test. I'd just use a HHT and test shave small spots as you go. But, as you probably know, getting an example of shave ready is a good idea. "Just Sharp", razor wise, can cause lots of facial damage. Typically, razors are "wicked sharp". There is a big difference.

You should have two blades for daily shaving, but it has nothing to do with resting. More its about having atleast one blade that is always "tuned" right without having to mess with it pre-shave. "Tuned" is the idea that the razor is at a good spot in the honing cycle and lightly/properly stropped.

Thanks for that advice!

I have also been told that I shouldn't hone the new razor unless it's impossible to get it shave-ready with the strop. How much stropping do I need to do before I know it's time to get the hone out?

I can't wait to get started with this...

:)

Omkin, a good recommendation would be to send your nice razor to one of our honemeisters to get it shave ready (see the classifieds). It will do a couple of things for you. First your razor will truly be shave ready when you start hacking away at your whiskers. Buy an inexpensive razor from ebay or antique shop/show to practice your honing skills. The other thing is that you will now have a proper shave ready edge to compare against the edge you developed with your hones.

As a newbie to straights you will have removed one of the two variables in trying to solve the eternal question of why I didn't get a good shave the first time. Since you will have a shave ready edge that leaves technique. Also, if you haven't already done so, get a copy of Lynn's CD (also in the classifieds). It is over 3 hours of great information for the beginner. It is a good investment.

If you tried to rationalize that one razor (or several) upfront cost will pale against the cost of disposables, you are fooling yourself...:rofl2:

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Originally Posted by dward

If you tried to rationalize that one razor (or several) upfront cost will pale against the cost of disposables, you are fooling yourself...:rofl2:

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Hear hear! :D

But my question for both omikin and our more senior members AFDavis and dward is to say this:

Omikin mentions he is getting a hone. Does the type of hone he is getting (which I have never used or dealt with before) require any form of preperation/lapping before he egins to hone? That was my mistake when I bought my Norton 4k/8k.

Just be aware of this, yeah? :tu

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Originally Posted by dward

If you tried to rationalize that one razor (or several) upfront cost will pale against the cost of disposables, you are fooling yourself...:rofl2:

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Plus one to that. Unless you cancel your internet after you have received the essentials you're done for.

Seriously though, if you want to learn to hone I would get 2 razors and have one of them honed by a member here. Honing will either be easy or hard to pick up depending on your natural ability, you dont want the sharpness of your first razor to be left up to that.

Like AFDavis said, your honing idea is good but a bit slow. I would do more than 5 laps on the belgian before hitting the strop. You don't have to worry about an over honed edge on the belgians so there is no need to do such a low lap count. Just out of curiosity I've done hundreds of laps on the blue and hundreds on the coticule and never noticed a problem.

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Originally Posted by sidneykidney

Does the type of hone he is getting (which I have never used or dealt with before) require any form of preperation/lapping before he egins to hone?

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Good point, both the belgian blue and coticule will require lapping. You can do this on some wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface or if you are getting it from the perfect edge Howard can do it for you for a small fee. I would recommend having him do it, it's well worth the small fee he charges.

Doesn't "BBW" stand for Belgian Blue Waterstone? If so, it's around 4000 grit and not a finishing stone. It might well make your Salter blade even less shave-ready! The Belgian Yellow coticule/waterstone is considered to be the finishing stone for a final edge. I didn't notice any mention of another stone in your post - apologies if I missed it!

Regards,
Neil

I would say send it to get honed by a professional. I know the first time I honed my blade I certainly didn't get it sharp enough to shave with for a first timer (though sharp enough to shave with 6 months experience with a straight).

The BBW is indeed 4000 grit - I knew this was low but I thought it might be okay. Does this mean that going forward the BBW will be okay for the first bit of honing, but I need something more like 12000 grit for finishing?

I think I have decided that I will get it professionally honed to start with, then see how I go from there.

I would really appreciate your opinions on the usefulness of the BBW for the future! And then in a few months time I'll be on the lookout for a finer hone, by the sounds of it...

Cheers!

Om

Om - the Belgian Blue will set the bevel for you (it's not the fastest hone though, by any means), but you need something around 8000k to refine it. The Belgian Yellow would fit the bill - used with a slurry it serves as a lesser grit size and cuts quite fast, used with just water it cuts finer, used dry it's finer still. You could then strop on a green chrome oxide pasted strop followed by finishing on a leather strop. Or get one of the cheap chinese polishing stones which is, I think, around 12000 grit size instead of the chrome oxide. I'd get the yellow stone and see how it goes.

Regards,
Neil.

So if I get one of the nice yellow stones that will do the job okay? And will I even need the BBW?

What is the use of a 4000 grit stone with a straight edge? Have I been sold a pup?

It's only a small stone though (100 x 50) so is very portable, so I guess I could travel with it very easily. But if it's not fine enough, do I even need it?

On no you will need the BBW as well. Think of hones like this: the hone is like a blade in itself. What you want to do with it is cut a very fine slice of metal from the edge of your razor. However the finished blade should be very precise and neat considering the job it has to do. As a metaphor- there are different blades for different things. This guy has an axe: :medvl: Which would be great for chopping a branch off a tree. Now imagine your kitchen knife doing it. It might be able to do it as well, but it would take MUCH longer! However in the kitchen when you need to cut up a vegetable the axe would be able to do it, but it wouldnt fit the job as well because its not precise. For that you would choose the kitchen knife.

This rather elaborate and convoluted metaphor is to demonstrate that a 8000 grit stone could do the job of a 4000 grit stone but it wouldnt do it as well and it would take MUCH longer. Similarly a 4000 grit is not a finishing stone.

The short answer: You didnt waste your money.

Thanks for that - reassuring that I've got at least some of the right honing kit.

I've considered everything that you guys have said and have bought a ready-honed vintage straight edge so I can see/feel what the correct sharpness shoould be like, then I guess I need to get a yellow stone and practice on the Salter.

Wish me luck!

By no means did you waste your money on the blue. My honing progression goes 1200 DMT, belgian blue, and then coticule. Now of course it's not that simple, there are sluries involved along the way but I just wanted to point out that the blue has its place in a hone set-up.

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Originally Posted by JCitron

By no means did you waste your money on the blue. My honing progression goes 1200 DMT, belgian blue, and then coticule. Now of course it's not that simple, there are sluries involved along the way but I just wanted to point out that the blue has its place in a hone set-up.

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This is the set up that I started with and learned with. What can I say...... It served me well for over a year and a half.

I now use 1200 DMT (still) for my bevel setter
4K shapton on glass
8K Shapton on glass
16K Shapton on glass
Nakayama
CRO on pasted hanging linen strop

Finish with 60 laps on 2-1/2" red latigo TM strop
20 laps horsehide Scottish strop, 2-1/2"
20 laps #1 TM, horsehide, 2-1/2"

* Fabulous edges, nothing better!!! if I get an edge that's too sharp and a bit irritating (very rare!), I'll do 6 - 8 slurry laps on the Nakayama.

** Nothing better :tu:tu:tu

Okay, my vintage WH Roberts (honed and stropped by Steve at Invisible Edge) has arrived today and I am itching to get it home and try it out. I'm going to take my time, concentrate on technique and prep, and try not to sever anything serious.

Wish me luck!

Hope it goes/went well. Any questions/problems you know where we are. :tu