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When I bought my razor it was pretty sharp it was a bit grabby and took a few swipes to do the job. So I purchesed a Norton wet stone kit and fallowed the steps discribed on this site 3/3 1/3 1/5 on the 4000 and 8000. Then I ran it across the strop about 20 times, does that sound right? Anyway it wont pass the hanging hair test I would like to achieve the sharpest edge possible what am I missing?
Thanks, Erik
Um, if you think 3/3 1/3 1/5 is a magic all encompassing formula, you have a lot of reading to do! There is a lot of info in the stickies in the honing section. Start there and then ask a lot more questions. Good luck.
Personally I would never use a 4K with a new razor unless the edge was in really bad shape which is pretty unlikely though it could happen. I would just use a few swipes on the 8K and then some more on the Coticule or another 12K. If you don't have a 12K the 8K should give you a pretty good edge.
Welcome to SRP! Hope we can provide you some good advise to get started and as your technique improves.
First the hanging hair test is just that... only a test. Shaving is the real test of the razor.
Regarding honing, I agree with Utopian. You need to do a lot more reading on the honing forum.
Stropping 20 times is just a starter. I normally strop 60x on the linen and 60-100x on the leather.
I have found that stropping as described here in the fourth post down ( by mparker762) helped me finally get the HHT with a fair amount of consistency if I did my homework on the hones first. Read the whole thread for a lot of good info.
I have also found that I personally don't need to have a razor pass the HHT to get a good smooth and clean shave. Others find that they can only get a satisfactory shave with the razor that can pass HHT. Maybe I lucked out in not having such a tough beard.
I believe Lynn has said that his ultimate test is the shave so see what the razor does for you as it is and go from there. :gl:
I've personally never been able to get a razor to pass the HHT, even after being professionally honed by Lynn. I do, however, have extremely fine hair.
Is this what you are talking about?
Norton Pyramid Honing guide
If you use this as your guide you will be able to get a shave ready razor. You may never pas the HHT notice it isn't even mentioned in this guide. That isn't an accident, it's because in the great scheme of things the HHT bears no relevance whatsoever to a sharp razor or a good shave.
By the way Mods, someone needs to edit this guide so that the author Randy Tuttle gets his well deserved kudos.
Am I missing something, or are you going for HHT off an 8k? I'm honestly not sure that is possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
Actually it is, it's possible off the 4000 too. It just doesn't translate to a good shave.
If I understand correctly, he just wants a razor that will shave hair on the first swipe without grabbing - not sure if he really cares whether or not the razor cuts a hanging hair as long as it shaves wellQuote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
It shouldn't be grabby. You need to get the blade resharpened.Quote:
Originally Posted by eichh
I guess that's all I can say for certain.
You may not yet have the skill to sharpen it yourself; honing is more than just the hone, it is the experienced, practiced stroke on the hone that sharpens the blade to shave-readiness. If you don't have a back up razor you may want to send it out for resharpening
It shouldn't be grabby, probably needs honing.
Your Norton 4/8K is all you really need. Finer stones are nice to have, I have one, I also have pasted strops, but I rarely use them as proper stropping on leather works just fine.
How much you strop is a matter of taste. 40 linen 40 leather works fine for me. Theoretically more passes will smooth things out more, but I can't feel it. Then again, I spent a lot of time outdoors so maybe my face is not as sensitive as some. As I said, it's a matter of taste.
HHT never works for me either, but my razors shave just fine.
The thumbpad test will tell you if its sharp, but not if its smooth. You will need to learn what sharp feels like.
Regarding the HHT, just ignore it. I will give you an example why.
I was at the MN get-together last weekend and Randy gave a honing demonstration. When finished, he passed the razor over his forearm and dozens of hairs just popped right off. He then gave the razor back to its owner, who also tried it on his forearm and the same thing happened. Now, I have never honed a razor that would to that to the hairs on my arm so I always wondered if maybe I actually sucked at honing. I had to know, so I asked for a chance with the razor. I passed it over my arm several times and not a single hair popped. They just bent over the way they always do when I test my razors that way. Now I was willing to consider the possibility that I sucked at honing but I was pretty sure that Randy did not. After all, I had just seen that razor pop the hairs off of Randy's arm. The lesson here is that everyone's hair is different and that makes the HHT a somewhat arbitrary test.
Lynn is right. The only test that matters is the shave.
I am totally down with this. Someone alot smarter than I said, "The HHT is a parlor trick". Your goal when honing is to provide an edge on the razor that will shave you comfortably. I use the thumb pad test to check the uniformity of the entire edge and I am very good at determining if a razor is ready for a "shave test" by passing it across my arm hairs. This (in my estimation) is the most dependable test of sharpness. I simply pass the razor up the back of my forearm with the spine against my skin and the edge lifted two or three millimeters off the skin. A good sharp edge will "pop" the hairs off the arm with no contact of the edge with the skin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I do the same test on my forearm. I have very fine hair on my arms, so this proves to be a very good test for me. A razor that shaves but not well will not pass this test (well) for me, but one I just honed up and stropped tonight took off almost every hair it touched on my arm, so dozens at a time. It also passed the HHT every time with even very fine hair. But, this is what works for ME and for MY hair. What everyone else is saying is very true, these tests are not by any means the be-all and end-all. The bottom line is: some tests work for some, and some for others. Just find what works for you. Having it shave well for you is all that matters, that's the only true test.
Dave
In my humble opinion:
The shave test is about proofing.
The other tests are about probing.
Big difference.
But still, they all can be valuable, if you learn how to do them and how to read them.
For shave proofing, you got to know how to shave. (beard and skin type are variables)
For the TPT you got to learn how it feels. (skin type and roughness are variables)
For the HHT you got to learn how to read it. (hair type and oiliness are variables)
If you get in front of an audience and do the HHT, then it's a parlour trick.
Showing of how you dare touching a blade with little slicing motions during the TPT is a parlour trick.
If you incorporate a well-calibrated version of the HHT or of the TPT into your sharpening practice, then it's a honing aid.
I encourage any beginning honer to give them all a fair shot and see what works best for him.
In the end, the shaving proof is all that matters, but it would be hard for me to get there without intermediate tests. For instance, I use a sort of HHT along the edge to find out if my bevel is good, coming off a DMT1200. I can't imagine shaving with the razor at that point, and I'm not even sure it would tell me what I need to know at that point. When I, next, progress to a Belgian Blue I use the TPT to assess when sharpness maxes out on that hone. Again, I can't imagine shaving patches of my face instead of performing TPTs.
I wish people would stop dismissing tests as unreliable, just because they didn't work out for them, or because they didn't personally find use for them.
They're just tests, no need to be anal retentive about them. (:thinking:taking as much to myself as to the guys dismissing them;))
Bart.
+1 Excellent! I hone 20 to 30 razors a week. I use a microscope to check the progress at each stage of honing. I use a TPT sometimes to verify. I don't have enough hair to do a HHT. :mad: As what has been stated before, IT'S THE SHAVE that is the ultimate test. If you want to find out what sharp feels like, you can use a DE razor blade and develop a sense of touch with this blade.:gl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Although certainly not an expert, what I have garnered from the posts I have read over time is that some people use it religiously. Can't say that's a minority. But to me the HHT is something to impress your friends; the application of the edge to your face is the only test that matters...
Thanks for the insite guys,and yes I was just looking to get the razor as sharp as possible not just to chop a hair in half. I did a couple more swipes on the 8000 and ran it on the linen about 50 times and on the leather about 100 times and now she shaves a solid 100% better.
i have now come to the conclusion that my hair is much too inconsistent to use the HHT. i usually run my hands through my hair to try and get one and the variety of thickness of hair is pretty ridiculous. i'm not saying that a sharp razor shouldn't cut them all, but i am saying that a razor in the honing process for me is more reliably tested with the TPT and forearm test. i have been getting a lot more used to the TPT. i'm a noob though so we'll see where i go from here.
Hello Erik, the above posts about the shave being the best test is absolutely correct. I never could get a good shave on the Norton 4K X 8K when I first started and until I got a finishing hone it stayed that way. There are several finishers in the 12K to 16K range that work well. For a new straight shaver getting into honing I would recommend a two sided paddle strop with 1.0 micron diamond on one side and .5 micron CrO on the other. This will finish your blade to shave ready. You have the lower end covered with your Norton. Keep reading the honing sections and you will get a feel for it.
bj