No Stropping Before A Shave?

I have a point to bring up that might help myself and other newbs diving into the world of staight razor shaving. I hope some senior members (and experienced newbs alike) will see this thread to help us out. It seems that every now and then a member will recommend that a newb is better off NOT stropping before a FIRST shave to avoid rolling a good blade. Then others will chime in to say that this is not a good practice at all. I think that this can be a little overwhelming to new members who are trying to do things right from the beginning.

First, I don't disagree with the fact that we all want as sharp a blade as possible. If not stropping the first time provides a good first shave then so be it. However, if PROPER stropping really makes or breaks a good shave (along with a properly honed edge, prep, technique etc) due to realignment, corrosion removal etc then should we not concentrate on good stropping technique right from the beginning?
I think in some regards newbs are scared about stropping for the first time. We read horror stories about guys rolling edges, requiring immediate honing services after one or two shaves. We hear the cautions from senior members warning us of how easy it is to do. So where are people going wrong? Is it from over eager guys thinking it's easy and going for broke? Is it from guys being over cautious and doing an ineffectual job? A good in-depth stropping technique topic would be great for the WIKI.

Second, and I hope this isn't too controversial, is the question of how "shave ready" a blade is. I think that if a blade is advertised as "shave ready" in the classifieds then most newbs will think it is perfect. Everyone has their opinion of what "shave ready" means. Not everyone will hone to perfection like Lynn, Don, Glen or others who have been doing this for years. If Lynn honed my razor and says it does not have to be stropped I WILL take this for granted. However if another member advertises his blade as "shave ready" and his skills aren't exactly up to par (will shave but not optimum - no offence) should we as newbs still avoid stropping for the first time?

Please excuse my long ramblings on this subject. I'm interested in seeing the responses on this so we can (hopefully) put some closure on this issue.

Regards,

Ryan

It would be nice if there was an easy answer to your question but that is not the case.

Razors should always be stropped before use and all shavers should be competent at shaving, stropping and honing before they actually start but this is simply not the case. I've often said that before any person starts shaving with a straight they should get a few eboy specials and practice stropping and honing and then shaving so when the get their first true razor they are competent at all the skills.

This is never going to happen so guys will continue to begin the endeavor with a variety of skill sets and competencies so there is no one rule to fit everyone. If they get a razor honed by a true honemeister and their skills at stropping are good they should certainly strop before shaving however if this is not the case stropping will in all probably do more harm than good so they should initially shave before stropping the first time. Its the same with honing. if they get a razor with a damaged edge should they attenpt to repair it or send it out? That depends also on their skill with a hone.

As far as shave ready goes anyone can claim it. I've bought razors from people who have claimed it and some were and some weren't. We have had many discussions here about truly shave ready and minimally shave ready and what those terms mean to different individuals, meaning shavers. Also depending on the type of beard you have person A may find a razor totally shave ready and person B may find the same razor just doesn't pass muster.

Clear as mud?

So for these reasons and others people will come up with there just isn't a one size fits all answer to your question.

+1 Big!! Except I would add "...on a cloudy day." to the mud statement.

Lynn advises to not strop prior to the first shave when he does the honing. I think it is safe to assume he has already done that. I have experienced 3 hone jobs of his so far (and should get my 4th from him within the next week or so) and agree with him. That's not say their aren't other honers who provide it stropped. YMMV

Thanks Bigspendur for your thoughful reply. I may be fortunate because I have a family heirloom razor and old barbers strop that are not in servicable condition which I can practice stropping on. This may not be the case with most people. It may be good the build up the "muscle memory" that some members claim; I'll know when I try to shave with my other "shave ready" razor. The problem for newbs is trying to determine what went wrong if it does not go right.

I'm interested to see some more more persectives..........

Ryan

My personal feelings on the matter.

As someone who rolled their first razor up their first stropping attempt, had it fixed, then clunked it on the faucet just at the start of the second try at shaving. I say if you get a blade advertised as shave ready, Try it out as it is. To my face a sharp but unstropped blade feels a tiny bit harsh, the shave could be a touch smoother, but the razor will never be sharper, and I don't think the shave will ever be closer.

Proper stropping only smooths and perfects an already sharp blade. It does make or break an attempt to achieve a perfectly smooth comfortable shave but it can also ruin a perfectly sharpened edge. Someone who has never tried to strop a razor then use it, though they may have practiced with dull blades until they are confident in themselves, may still screw it up and find themselves having a bad first experience. If you just shave without risking the edge while the shave will be less than it could be at least it will be pretty good.

I guess one approach would be to try the first shave (regardless of who honed it) and then apply a CAREFUL stropping for the second shave and compare the differences............ assumming you didn't roll the edge!

Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

I guess one approach would be to try the first shave (regardless of who honed it) and then apply a CAREFUL stropping for the second shave and compare the differences............ assumming you didn't roll the edge!

Any thoughts?

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Thats what I do. Even when I hone a razor myself I usually skip the strop until I am sure the razor is as sharp as I can get it. Sometimes It takes a couple trips back to the hone before things are perfect.

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Originally Posted by dward

+1 Big!! Except I would add "...on a cloudy day." to the mud statement.

Lynn advises to not strop prior to the first shave when he does the honing. I think it is safe to assume he has already done that. I have experienced 3 hone jobs of his so far (and should get my 4th from him within the next week or so) and agree with him. That's not say their aren't other honers who provide it stropped. YMMV

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I was told that you didn't have to strop a blade first time after honing (I strop approx 10 strokes on linen and 30 strokes on leather after honing, test shave it and then repeat the stropping before it goes out) and that became the word for some reason. I still strop before every shave unless I have just honed the razor (same process 10-30 on the strop). If it sits for a couple of days, I strop it. Again, personal preference??? Not sure, but it works for me. Unfortunately, tis easy for a new person to mess up a new edge stropping incorrectly. But when they do, I will always hone it up again for them because getting successful shaves will always be the most important thing. A nice even stroke is the key, keeping the razor flat against the strop during the stroke. The main reason new people have trouble shaving is usually not the stropping, but really in finding the right angle to shave with and getting comfortable with their technique in holding the razor and learning how to apply the right angle to all the different parts of their faces.

Have fun,

Lynn

Hello Ryan,
I will try and make this response to the point. I have been using a straight razor exclusively for 31 years. I have only been a member of this forum for a couple of months. With that being said, I can understand your frustration with the many answers and variations of answers to particular questions. I was taught by my Grand-Dad starting at a young age and by age 12 was utilizing only a straight to shave with. My experience is going to be much different than someone who has gotten their start by reading this forum and putting into practice that which they have gleaned without the invaluable one-on-one technique from an experienced, older and wiser mentor such as I was afforded. Just as I have found over the many years what works best for me, you in time will find what works best for you. I have always sharpened all of my razors and indeed was also taught this by my Grand-Dad as well as stropping my razors on leather. I don't use "High Tech Hones" that cost hundreds of dollars or microscopes, oscilliscopes or any other magnification products to achieve very sharp razors. If I were to hone a razor for you and inform you that it is "Shave Ready" and no stropping is necessary, then this is exactly what I mean because I always strop at least 100 passes on a freshly honed razor. However, after you shave with one of my freshly honed razors, you will still need to use the strop before your next shave with it. This is just the nature of steel after the cutting process. Could you shave 3 or 4 times without using a strop? Probably, but you really would notice a difference if you refrained from doing so.
Stropping in my opinion is as important as honing. You will never master the straight razor shave without it being stropped properly, on the contrary as you stated in your post, poor stropping technique could indeed render a freshly honed razor nothing more than a glorified butter knife! Stropping though is not a secret process reserved for the "Master Ninja". It is just putting steel to leather through multiple passes refining and aligning the cutting edge. Take for instance my technique. I too have read many posts on stropping in this forum. There are as many variations and opinions as there are members. I disagree with many of them. For one thing, I have never used linen, or canvas or cotton or newspaper or any other material that works as well as plain old leather. Do these work for others on this site? Yes, I'm sure they do or at least those that utilize other materials think so. That is really all that counts. Secondly, There is only ONE way to pull the blade on leather or any other stropping material and that is with the spine leading PERIOD!!! However, as with everything there are variations. some prefer a really taut strop, in fact, I have seen folks practically pull the hook out of the wall by pulling so tight. For myself, I just keep it from sagging to the point of resembling a bananna! My strop is not very tight, I let it have some play in it, maybe as much as 1 or 2 inches when stropping. Now keep in mind that I have read on this site that stropping my way will damage the blade, or cause it to warp or some other crazy thing. I know this is not the case in real life scenarios. I'm sure in time...maybe 2000 years give or take of stropping my way on the same exact razor with the same exact strop that this might cause some funky blade wear but who cares? It hasn't thus far in 30 plus years. So in closing, just find what works for you. Experiment with your razors. I know this can seem poor counsel when blades are expensive, but once you figure out that this is not rocket science, rather just sharpening and honing steel to cut whiskers, it puts it all into perspective. If you dull a blade just sharpen it. If you roll a blade on a strop, just touch it up on a high grit stone. It need not be complicated. Everything can be sharpened and repaired within minutes provided you do not CHIP a blade. Remember too, stropping need not be fast, it just needs to be deliberate. Just try and keep the blade and spine touching at the same time and as flat as you can. Pull the blade with the spine leading, turn the blade over either by rolling it backwards on it's spine and into position or actually picking the blade up off the strop and turning it over with the spine making contact first followed by the blade and make your next pass. I have taught others to shave with a razor including my oldest son in college. The single biggest mistake guys make when first learning to strop is...going too fast!!!!! They want to look like the "Barber Of Seville or some such non-sense". Second biggest mistake...too much pressure on the blade. Don't try and push it clean through the strop an onto the floor! Just touch it to the leather, not like a sissy rubbing a feather on it, but rather a conscious attempt to apply constant pressure of the weight of the blade. Third...[B]Lifting the spine just before they reach the end of their pass before turning to strop the other direction. This is a sure fire method to roll you razor's edge. I hope this helps and gives some confidence to those just starting out.

Respectfully,

Dean, that was truly a great relpy, and you have my utmost thanks. My second (not shave ready) razor was my great grandfathers, the only person in my family I know for a fact was a straight razor shaver at some point in his life. Unfortunately he died a few years before I was born and could not learn from him. I do have his razor though, and the willingness to learn............

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Originally Posted by Dean65

I have always sharpened all of my razors and indeed was also taught this by my Grand-Dad as well as stropping my razors on leather. I don't use "High Tech Hones" that cost hundreds of dollars or microscopes, oscilliscopes or any other magnification products to achieve very sharp razors.

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Damn! Now I gotta go get me an oscilliscope!

Dean, that was a very nice summary of the sane side of shaving. It's not rocket science, it's shaving.

As far as the stropping issue goes, I figure if someone declares a razor for sale to be shave ready, then they darn well should have shaved with it AT LEAST once. I cannot imagine shave testing a razor and then selling it to someone without re-stropping it but maybe it happens. If you are completely new to straight razors, there is a good chance that you will mess up a newly purchased razor by stropping it badly. For that reason, I think any newbie that buys a "shave ready" razor should try it for the first time without stropping it. That way they are guaranteed to start with the blade in the exact condition that the seller, honemeister or otherwise, left it. If it shaves well, great. Be happy and take your best shot at stropping it the next time. If it doesn't shave well the next time, acknowledge that you need to work at stropping and know full well that the bad shave the second time was not the fault of the seller. On the other hand, if the first shave is awful, then either you don't know how to shave, or the razor was honed improperly, or the razor actually needed to be stropped. Since you did not strop it first there is no chance you messed it up. The next step then is to strop it yourself and see if that helps. Using this approach helps determine who is potentially responsible when a new razor doesn't shave the way it's expected to.

Nice post Dean.
You bring up some valid points.
I think I may strop in a similar way to you. I use a fairly short stroke with some play in the strop. The anchor hand never moves from my hip so it's not like a rubber band. The stroke is hard to explain but executed correctly the strop sort of wraps around the spine rather than the edge which trails on flat leather. I'm sure it can be done wrongly but so can everything, even stropping on a tight strop ... :D

I didn't read all of Dean's post.

I would like to add (I think) though, that for me, stropping a newly honed edge is a completely different process then stropping an edge that has been used before.

From the strops point of view a newly honed edge is the most fragile edge you could try to strop.

I would sit in the camp that a razor should not be stropped the first time and you should only attempt part of your face. The razor will be smoothed out a little as you shave. Atleast if your paying for the honing and you have to mail it out again once done.

First and foremost, Thank you Ryan for starting a thread which has provoked so many opinions, I have found a great deal of this to be entertaining and educational.

My dad always told me growing up that if someone makes somethig look easy, it is very likely that they are quite skilled at the task. It is silly (IMO) to assume being new to straights that I am capable of doing the things that I see done in the videos. On the other hand, I am not unaccustomed to using leather to strop a blade. For me it is like second nature. It is difficult to understand how some of the battle hardened "experts" will not divert from the opinion that noobs will always roll the razor's edge. But that is irrellevant.

Like Dean says be deliberate, use your brain, and have a good time. This is a hobby, something to be enjoyed. We are dedicated to taking the boring out of this mundane task and make it something worth enjoying. So have fun.

I wish the best of luck to you in your shaving endeavors.

I guess I missed this one until now,,,,,

I could only answer for my edges, but with every razor I hone, I make sure to include a dated letter with the razor, telling how the razor was honed, and that I have test shaved that razor, sterilized it, and re-stropped it.....

I do actually state in the letter that I want your first shave to be on me, not on your ability to strop or lack of ability to stop, so I ask please just rinse the oil off the razor and shave for your first time... This also gives the razor's owner should they actually be a newbie a reference point for their stropping ability on the next shave also....

It is as optimum, as I can possibly get the razor to them.... Yes for the purists it has been in the mail for about 3 days and I bet you would re-strop it anyway, but I can't as of yet, control the USPS :D

I started doing the letter after I saw so many questions about this on the forums...

The key being that you well oil the blade before sending it out, thereby minimizing any need for stropping to improve the oxidzed edge.

Good point that I forgot to mention. Under the microscope, I have seen oxidation appear in less than a half hour on some razors. For that reason I always strop and oil right after honing so I didn't give a thought to the fact that someone else might not.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I guess I missed this one until now,,,,,

I could only answer for my edges, but with every razor I hone, I make sure to include a dated letter with the razor, telling how the razor was honed, and that I have test shaved that razor, sterilized it, and re-stropped it.....

I do actually state in the letter that I want your first shave to be on me, not on your ability to strop or lack of ability to stop, so I ask please just rinse the oil off the razor and shave for your first time... This also gives the razor's owner should they actually be a newbie a reference point for their stropping ability on the next shave also....

It is as optimum, as I can possibly get the razor to them.... Yes for the purists it has been in the mail for about 3 days and I bet you would re-strop it anyway, but I can't as of yet, control the USPS :D

I started doing the letter after I saw so many questions about this on the forums...

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You beat me to it... I was gonna post about that letter you include with your sharpened razors.

I strop daily so that my razor stays shave ready. If someone strops it for me, I don't need to strop it, although, it certainly won't hurt the razor if I do so.

Let me prove it with a quote I just found:

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A shave ready razor has already been stropped, or else it is not yet shave ready.
- Lee

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Good point that I forgot to mention. Under the microscope, I have seen oxidation appear in less than a half hour on some razors. For that reason I always strop and oil right after honing so I didn't give a thought to the fact that someone else might not.

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+1 on that. A coat of oil is good insurance. If that oxidation eventually becomes visible to the naked eye you've likely got yourself a pit.

Dean, that was a great write up.
You offered many valid points.
Nevertheless, I would like to make one remark. I often wonder about the sharpness of razors. I think that in the old days, they were generally less sharp than the edges used by many of us today. In the old days, a boy learned to shave with the sharpness his father managed to get with the hones that were available. What the blade offered in sharpness needed to be taken as such, and where the sharpness left something to be desired, shave technique had to make up for it. It takes a tad more pressure than a sharper blade, the shaving angle needs to be more precise, scything motions perfected, skin stretching mastered. The boy had a light beard that became coarser together with his growing avidness as a shaver.
Today, Lynn, or another honemeister, sends a razor to a grown boy, that has the modern world's patience, and indeed: in his inexperienced hands, the razor does not remove whiskers as he expected it would. The razor is declared not shaveready (while in fact it is the grown boy that is not quite shaveready) and the honemeister declared a fraud (of course no newbie puts it in his first post so bluntly, but we've all read between the lines of such posts written in utter frustration).
My point is that seasoned shavers are tweaked in with their edges, and that shavereadiness is a variable, in function of one's beard, skills, habits and preferences. (How about that, Nelson?:))

About stropping. I'd like to test my edges, TPTs, HHTs, mowing armhair, I don't care. I am pretty sure that stropping an edge, even on the very first time after it is honed, affects all those tests. I've never shaved without stropping, so I can't tell about that "test". It is clear to me that stropping does something, and that an edge should always be stropped, whether Glen does it up front (and oils the blade), or Glen's customer does it before the shave. I have one exception, and thats when I finish on a CrO-pasted strop (can't speak for diamond compounds), but even then, I strop on leather as well, although I don't notice the difference.

Bart.

I have shaved a few times directly off all my natural hones.

Lynn, are you saying there should be no difference between a fresh edge from the hone, and that same (similar) one stropped on the first shave? I guess there is no direct comparison, but the second stropped shave always seems noticeably smoother to me

Is it fair to say that unless the razor comes right out of the hone, one should always:

1) Always strop before shaving.

2) The stropping sequence is dictated by personal preference.

3) One should lead with the spine when stropping.

4) The blade should be parallel to the strop.

5) There should be some light pressure (not just the weight of the blade) applied to the blade onto the strop.

6) Stropping should be done covering the whole blade and with "confident" strokes.

Al raz.