Honing Problem

So I'm brand new to the world of straight razor shaving. I finally got my first razor, hone (norton 4k/8k), strop, etc., etc. . . . anyway, I bought this vintage razor from ebay and I guess you could say I'm starting from the ground up. It's a Wade & Butcher "the celebrated, extra hollow ground" razor (looks real old).

It definitely needed some work, but I've run into a few problems along the way. I've searched online, read articles, and watched youtube videos to no avail. My first issue is that on one side of the spine, it is not flat and you can tell there has been some uneven hone wear. When I lay the other side of the blade on the hone, it appears to seat properly with the spine and bevel making contact from heel to toe. The bad side will lay flat at the toe, but the heel is raised up and doesn't make contact unless I slightly raise the blade onto the bevel (which in turn, lifts the toe portion of the spine and requires me to put pressure).

I have honed away at this thing for hours on the norton 4k stone and I have no idea how to tell if I'm overhoning. The bevel has a slight smile where the blade is a bit wider just in front of the middle portion. I watched a few video seminars where the instructors advised most vintage (ebay especially) blades should have a fresh bevel set in on them when you get them for the first time. I guess I might have achieved this, because I can see where my honing has removed the metal and now the edge is shinny and new.

After using the paintbrush method at first (before I realized that might not be the best method for this blade) to an "x stroke" pattern, the bevel is nice and sharp at the widest point of the blade, but the heel and toe are dull. This is very disturbing to me because I don't want to keep going and end up overhoning and losing the sharp part. I really just want to take the spine to a bench grinder and level it out from heel to toe! Can someone please help me out here?! If you do overhone, how do you get it sharp again? I read somewhere that if you pull the blade backwards (like the method used for stroping) it would reset it. No one said how many strokes that takes either. What if I just took the whole thing and laid it flat against the side of the bench grinder stone until it was even?! LOL . . . seriously, I'm so frustrated. Thanks in advance!

First, welcome to SRP.

Next, I recommend you send your razor to a honemeister (can be found in the classifieds) to get the proper edge put on it. It sounds like you have yet to have the correct bevel. It's hard to explain in this venue how to achieve that. The 4K is not really suited to put bevels on for a beginner. Yes, it can be done, but it will take a good long time.

If you plan to do your own honing, it would be best to get another razor. Not one as practice, but one to develop your honing skills. Get a 1K hone to put the bevel on, and use the 4K/8K to sharpen it after the bevel is set. The one you get honed will be your reference for a proper edge. You won't have to learn two skills at the same time. Shaving and honing. The razor honed for you can be used to learn your shaving techniques. Otherwise you will never really know where the problems lay. In bad technique or bad edge. It's worth the investment, trust me... :gl:

Dan is right on target here -- all new shavers should have
a honemeister edge to use as a `benchmark', and to use
while learning to shave. The worst possible scenario is to
try and learn to hone and shave with a difficult (warped?)
edge!

- Scott

+1 for Dan.

Honing is difficult at first and shaving with a dull razor can be very miserable..

The good thing is that you apperently know the razor is not shaver ready and you didnt try to shave with it.. Now you can send your razor to a honemeister and get it honed.. get an other razor from the bay and a DMT- d6e (or something like that ... dont forget to break it in) and try to matchthe edge of the one you get back.. I'm still no where near but I get comfortable shaves from some razors I honed myself..

Maarten

Thanks for the advice guys! Considering there isn't anyone around the corner to teach me these things face-to-face, it does sound much wiser to send it to a pro and have something to compare to. I really was throwing myself out there with the wolves; the most frustrating thing was I've been waiting so long to shave with a straight razor. I think this will benefit more now that I've actually seen the worn out blade and will be able to compare after some professional work as oppose to just buying something shave ready.

Now, I looked at the classifieds for the honing services and noticed several ads that look promising (all are relatively the same ballpark price range). Is there anyone in particular that could be recommended? or anyone to avoid?

On a side note, I got to thinking (maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box here), but consider this. If a razor has been used for any amount of time, one would assume it was honed, stropped and kept relatively sharp; otherwise, the person using it would not really be able to shave properly. That being said, let's assume it hasn't been neglected or mistreated either. Years go by after no use and someone decides to purchase this razor from somewhere like ebay. How in the world does the bevel get so dull that an entirely new bevel must be set in? If the original user was only using it for shaving purposes, the blade would have had some sort of decent bevel (or blade, not sure of the terminology) to where the next person that picked it up could simply do a little honing and get it shave ready again (assuming it wasn't honed after its last use). Does this make sense or am I not using my brain? The metal edge doesn't just magically round itself off.

One last thing, Dan mentioned it was hard to explain setting a bevel or how to achieve it. Let's say I wanted to learn how to set a new bevel on my own (in the future after some experience), where could I find some good literature/pictures/etc.? I briefly searched the forums, but didn't locate anything specifically, maybe someone else could help me find out faster. I certainly am not asking anyone to write me a book about it on this thread, but maybe there is a link to somewhere I can read about it. Thanks once again . . . glad I found this site!

Most of your questions can be answered by looking at the Wiki or using the search function.

From your description it sounds like you have a warped blade. That razor is definitely not the best one to use while trying to learn how to hone. I used to think I was pretty good until I ran into my first warped blade.

If you really think the spine needs work I would PM one of the honemeisters that advertises restoration type services. Messing with the spine is not something I'd recommend for a newbie. :gl:

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Originally Posted by papasote

Now, I looked at the classifieds for the honing services and noticed several ads that look promising (all are relatively the same ballpark price range). Is there anyone in particular that could be recommended? or anyone to avoid?

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Any of them would be a good choice or else they wouldn't post their services. Lynn is definitely the most reputable, and I know Glen is top notch too.

welcome to srp. since the others covered pretty much the basics, i'll just pick up the esotherics

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Originally Posted by papasote

I think this will benefit more now that I've actually seen the worn out blade and will be able to compare after some professional work as oppose to just buying something shave ready.

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Yes, you'll probably be really convinced that you got your money's worth :) I think that's a common problem around these parts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by papasote

Now, I looked at the classifieds for the honing services and noticed several ads that look promising (all are relatively the same ballpark price range). Is there anyone in particular that could be recommended? or anyone to avoid?

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I'm pretty sure any of them will do great. Not sure if you'll get your spine fixed with everybody or unless you ask them to. I'd probably not change it unless it's my razor and I wouldn't expect honing to take care of it as it's very much restoration territory (actually most ebay razors fall under that for me since honing them is a lot more work than honing say a brand new razor).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by papasote

That being said, let's assume it hasn't been neglected or mistreated either. Years go by after no use and someone decides to purchase this razor from somewhere like ebay. How in the world does the bevel get so dull that an entirely new bevel must be set in? If the original user was only using it for shaving purposes, the blade would have had some sort of decent bevel (or blade, not sure of the terminology) to where the next person that picked it up could simply do a little honing and get it shave ready again (assuming it wasn't honed after its last use). Does this make sense or am I not using my brain? The metal edge doesn't just magically round itself off.

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Yes, I agree. So... I guess you just proved your assumption was wrong :roflmao
Actually you should ask Glen (gssixgun) sometime about the mystery of the dulling razors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by papasote

Let's say I wanted to learn how to set a new bevel on my own (in the future after some experience), where could I find some good literature/pictures/etc.?

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There really isn't much to it - you hone until the edge is sharp and straight line (i.e. no microchips or waviness). The second part is easily solved with magnification, the first part is where you have
two options: (1) blind trial and error (2) ask somebody to just set a bevel on a razor for you and use it as a reference point while learning.
Most people who have helped newbies will tell you that the bevel setting seems to be the most challenging part.
Correcting overhoning should be easy - run the edge lightly over a toothpick or a match stick, or do few (2-5) backwards or circular strokes on the hone.

If your going to send it to a honemeister who are you going to use?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by papasote

On a side note, I got to thinking (maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box here), but consider this. If a razor has been used for any amount of time, one would assume it was honed, stropped and kept relatively sharp; otherwise, the person using it would not really be able to shave properly. That being said, let's assume it hasn't been neglected or mistreated either. Years go by after no use and someone decides to purchase this razor from somewhere like ebay. How in the world does the bevel get so dull that an entirely new bevel must be set in? If the original user was only using it for shaving purposes, the blade would have had some sort of decent bevel (or blade, not sure of the terminology) to where the next person that picked it up could simply do a little honing and get it shave ready again (assuming it wasn't honed after its last use). Does this make sense or am I not using my brain? The metal edge doesn't just magically round itself off.

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Many times a razor spends years lying around somewhere. People might use it for cutting rope, scraping gunk off something, opening boxes, slaughtering chickens, you name it. The razor might become rusted, and someone without razor knowledge may still be handy enough to sand and polish the blade. Sometimes, some young fellow finds his grandfathers razor, tries it out on a piece of wood, hones a bit on granddad's old and worn-out woodworking hone, tries it on his face, says "nah" to himself and puts it on Ebay...

Bottom line: the possibilities for a razor to be completely dull are endless, and a straight razor in a drawer attracts plenty attention throughout the years of non-use.

About your honing. It's not rocket-science but it does require some knowledge. The wiki of StraightRazorPlace is a good source for that. It also requires a few motor skills, that resemble the learning curve of learning handwriting. That takes regular practice. Last but not least, learning how to hone requires a fair deal of result evaluation, that you can't perform without some confidence in your own straight shaving abilities.

When I was new at this, I figured honing razors was going to be easy. The big challenge in honing knifes and chisels, I always found was keeping the honing angle constant. With razors, keeping the angle constant seems easy, so how difficult could it be?
Well, I'm still learning, and I guess that counts for all guys that offer honing services in the Classifieds. So for all newbies, that ever read this post, I would like to point out the folowing:

Learning how to hone:
1. learn how to shave.
2. study the theory.
3. start out with a few dull razors in fair condition
4. learn to tackle problematic razors.

Approaching it backwards is a great recipe for frustration.


Best regards,
Bart.

Stephen436, I'm going to try and get a few estimates from the classifieds board. I'd like to get the spine corrected as oppose to just having it honed. When I need to sharpen it in the future, I'm assuming that if the razor will lay flat on the stone I'll be able to hone it using an easier technique than something like the "rolling x," which at this point I believe is a little too advanced for me.

Bart, indeed your comment about razors lying around for years makes sense. More than likely this is what happens and just can't be avoided. This also proves the point that these tools must be cared for with the utmost respect. They shouldn't just be left lying around for curious people to pick them up and start carving away at sticks and such, lol.

After reading the replies and checking out the wiki pages, I have found a lot of valuable information. I'm glad to see that so many people are keeping this tradition alive. Hopefully I'll be there soon enough!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by papasote

I'd like to get the spine corrected as oppose to just having it honed. When I need to sharpen it in the future, I'm assuming that if the razor will lay flat on the stone I'll be able to hone it using an easier technique than something like the "rolling x," which at this point I believe is a little too advanced for me.

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Just so you know and won't be disappointed the spine and the blade can be two separate issues. You can have a perfectly straight spine but the blade is slightly warped so it might not be possible to do what you want...in fact unfortunately that's the way it is most of the time hence the need for a narrow stone or advanced stroke.