Setting the bevel?

So I have the 4k 8k norton stone. I thought I set the bevel good with another coarser stone. Then I moved on the and have tried all sorts of stuff such as pyramid honing and doing lots of passes very delicately then stropping and trying to shave, but it is still not sharp and it cuts my face and pulls my hair. From everyone else I've heard with this stone they can pretty much be eating a bag of chips and get a sharper edge than me. So it's like what the hell! I'm wondering since I've pretty much tried every type of combination on the 4k and then 8k, should I go try to reset the bevel on say a 1k and then start all over again because it doesn't seem like to much is happening at the moment. Any advice much appreciated. Thanks

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Originally Posted by fiveten73

So I have the 4k 8k norton stone. I thought I set the bevel good with another coarser stone. Then I moved on the and have tried all sorts of stuff such as pyramid honing and doing lots of passes very delicately then stropping and trying to shave, but it is still not sharp and it cuts my face and pulls my hair. From everyone else I've heard with this stone they can pretty much be eating a bag of chips and get a sharper edge than me. So it's like what the hell! I'm wondering since I've pretty much tried every type of combination on the 4k and then 8k, should I go try to reset the bevel on say a 1k and then start all over again because it doesn't seem like to much is happening at the moment. Any advice much appreciated. Thanks

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If you have any kind of magnification that would be helpful in seeing how your bevel is looking. One way or the other try the TNT , thumbnail test. If the razor passes that don't use that test anymore on that razor. Go to the TPT, thumbpad test. Use that until it feels sticky to the touch and then you might see if it will pop hair just lightly brushing the hair without touching the skin.

If the razor passes the TNT you might be better off sticking with the 4k. If it doesn't maybe the 1k is in order until it does. As Randydance told me a long time ago setting the bevel is the hardest part and takes patience and persistence.

You CAN set a bevel with a 4K--it just takes a long time--like maybe three bags' worth of chips.:D

You don't have to get a 1K if you don't want to because, like I said, you can set the bevel with the 4k. The difference is time, which really only matters if you are going to hone a lot of razors. That is, if you are only going to buy a couple of razors and want to maintain them, you really don't need to spend the money on the 4k unless you time is quite valuable. Remember, once you set the bevel, it's a cinch to subsequently maintain the razor for years. Thus, it might take you a couple hours per razor to set the bevel on the 4k but then you are done except for a few minutes of maintenance strokes maybe once every month or so.

One the other hand, if you plan on buying a lot of razors, and trust me, we all have a different opinion on what that constitutes, you might want to buy a 1k to really speed along the setting of the bevel.

I set my bevels on the 1k side of my 220/1000 norton stone. I never needed to use the 220. The 1000 is really good for setting bevels, and the TNT can tell you a lot about the bevel after the 1000. I'm always afraid of dulling the edge with the TNT off of the 1000 (I NEVER use the TNT after the 1000), so I always do it very lightly. My girlfriend hates it, as it looks like I'm trying to slice into my thumb!

+1 on what Ron and Dave said about the 1k. All I would add is that if it is a new razor or one that hasn't been abused the 4k is fine for setting the bevel. If it is an ebay special with micro or even worse chipping and dull as a butter knife the 1k might be nice to have. :shrug:

What tests would indicate whether or not it is done on the 4k? Also can you overhone on the 4k if say its not passing one of these tests?

The tests are explained pretty well in the SRP Wiki in the honing section. The Wiki is up on the toolbar above to the left. Do you have any magnification ? That helps me alot. Seeing what is going on with the edge as I am progressing.

Honemeister Randydance suggested I use a new DE blade to get the feel of what the TPT would feel like with a sharp razor and that was very good in helping me to learn the feel of the edge on my thumb pad. He also suggested that I use it in tandem with the TNT while setting the bevel. More practice in getting the feel.

Once your edge passes the TNT don't use that on the razor anymore but stick with the TPT. Once the TPT is passed and the bevel is shiny and has a uniform scratch pattern all the way from the edge to the top of the bevel you can move on to sharpening on the 4k.

Matter of fact if you're starting with a razor with a decent edge you can set the bevel with the 4k. In the Wiki you will also find pyramid guides for a honing sequence. The pyramids can get the razor sharp and it is said to make it less likely that an inexperienced honer will overhone. I like to use one layer of tape on all of he razors I hone. Keeps the spine from getting worn and for a new honer might be a good idea while you're learning.

What they said.

Once you can pass the TNT and the marker test, at the same time, you then have a nice bevel. It's a lot easier to see the marker with some magnification. After that just use the TPT and finish up on each grit with very light and even strokes.

Getting the bevels set is often the hardest part, time-wise.

The light stroke is often the hardest part, sharpness-wise.

I understand your frustrations.
I can offer what has worked for me in the past, but it is hard to explain. Another one of those "feel" things.

When setting the bevel, on whichever grit stone, I go until the edge digs into my thumbnail. Perhaps this is what is meant by "passing" the TNT, but I have to assume that what is happening here is feeling the overhoned edge. So, for example, if I have a really bad blade and have to take it to the 1k, I'll do enough strokes until when the blade is drawn across the thumb nail it digs in along every point of the edge. By digging in I mean when pulled across, with just the weight of the blade, it literally goes nowhere. If it slides too easily, it isn't there yet. But, when it is, I move on.

With this overhoned edge on it, I know the bevel is set, and then begins the work of removing the wire edge, either by moving on to the next grit, or beginning the pyramid. And with the case of honing on the 4K, then I'll do a mess of strokes on the 8K to get rid of the wire edge, then go back to the 4K and begin the pyramid. Knowing that the bevel is set, I can do a conservative pyramid scheme with confidence and lightness of stroke. Usually this works well for me. Usually.

Hope that helps.

In addition to the great advice you have already gotten I would ask about your Norton. Is it properly lapped with the edges smoothly beveled?

I had the same problem you described when I first started using my Norton and it took me quite a while to figure out the edges weren't beveled as well as I thought. While the bevels on the stone looked good they were in fact a little rough.

hello,

So I am basically at the stage your at i think. So here's my 2 cents. This is probably overkill too, but it really didn't make sense to me until it hit me over the head yesterday. Knowing when to progess on a stone means you have to know what "sharp" feels like on the TPT. For the longest time I honed based on numbers and just assumed that would work (plus the TPT didnt give me much feedback [everything felt the same]).

So I spent a really long time trying to feel what "sharp" actually feels like to the thumb. So now I know I am done with the 4k after the whole blade feels the same. Then I move onto the 8k. I know this is not the pyramid method, but its the only way I could get feedback from what I was doing.

So in short my advice is be confident that you know what sharp feels like to the thumb. grab a dull kitchen knife and a sharp x-acto or something with your razor sitting somewhere in the middle. And feel away.

Hope this helps.

Alan

I have never had a problem setting the bevel using the 4k side of my Norton. In fact, I am not sure I have ever really had to set a bevel in the fullest sense. All of the razors I have honed (six vintage and two new Wapis) went quite quickly, maybe 10 minutes on the 4K and 10 on the 8K, strop and go. The only one that gave me any problems at all was a vintage Genco; I had to do about 100 passes on a pasted strop on that one.