Hone selection advice, Belgian Coticule combo vs Norton8/4k

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03-17-2009, 04:42 PM
kozak

Hone selection advice, Belgian Coticule combo vs Norton8/4k

I am looking to get into honing and am looking for some advice

I got a NATURAL COMBO COTICULE (BLUE AND YELLOW) as a gift and the description states:
Quote:
The Yellow coticule is an extremely versatile and efficient sharpening stone. Can be used wet, dry or wet with a slurry. The normal grit of the stone used without a slurry is 8000 grit. When used with a slurry, the grit drops to about 6000
and

Quote:
The Blue coticule is a natural sharpening stone with a grit of 4000, making ideal for re-sharpening a dull blade
Does this mean that I can skip on buying a Norton 4/8k combo? I thought the coticule was more of a finishing stone.
03-17-2009, 04:54 PM
Yannis

Buy a norton 1000/4000

As for coticule combo you have

Blue with slurry apr 6000 , with water aprox 9000
Yellow with slurry aprox 8000, with water aprox 12000

but this is my personal oppinion only.
03-17-2009, 05:10 PM
JimmyHAD

You will find advocates for both stones. IME having both is very useful. Whether you are a beginning honer or advanced you will find a benefit in more options. This article in the SRP Wiki gives a beginner much to go with and the superb articles by Bart also here in the Wiki do the same. Combined the two stones and the information available make learning to hone an easier task then with lesser documented hones.

Edit ; Welcome to SRP !!!
03-17-2009, 09:16 PM
Utopian

You wrote you are looking to get into honing. Does that mean you want to do honing to maintain your own razors or to do additional honing? Do you intend to have a few razors, or shall we say, more than a few?

If you just want to maintain a few of your own razors, a coticule is sufficient, especially if you read some of Bart's recent posts in the honing section. If you want to hone more than that, then you would greatly benefit from having an additional hone in the 1k range for bevel setting. Now, Bart can and does set bevels with a coticule, but most of us mortals would be better off with a more coarse hone for that job.
03-17-2009, 11:42 PM
Buckler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utopian

You wrote you are looking to get into honing. Does that mean you want to do honing to maintain your own razors or to do additional honing? Do you intend to have a few razors, or shall we say, more than a few?

If you just want to maintain a few of your own razors, a coticule is sufficient, especially if you read some of Bart's recent posts in the honing section. If you want to hone more than that, then you would greatly benefit from having an additional hone in the 1k range for bevel setting. Now, Bart can and does set bevels with a coticule, but most of us mortals would be better off with a more coarse hone for that job.

+1 on the 1k range bevel setting stone. From my reading thats the way to go. Takes for ever on a 4k and they clog up quick, a couple of hundred passes and you need to refresh them. I have a norton 220/1000 and use the 220 occasionlly for razors that need a 'hamering'. (I know ill be burned at the stake for that) But starting low just makes things quicker in to use a friends words, and i have found this very true. You can spend 3 hours on a 4k or get it done with a 1000 and use the 4k to get the 1k scraches out. makes sense to me. Now of course im asuming your getting ebay or antique shop razors and fixing them. If you just keeping an edge you will be fine with what you have, mabey the 4k/8k but stick with what you have and when you feel like you need more get it. (you will also have a better idea what you want, even after a few weeks of reading and playing)
But if you want to set bevels on old razors the hones i have suggested above and a loupe is great to see wether you have gotten all the chips out and are progressing well. For $8 you cant say no http://www.uxcell.com/precision-opti...s-p-11684.html

+Buckler
03-18-2009, 05:13 AM
kozak

Thanks for the input.

Quote:

You wrote you are looking to get into honing. Does that mean you want to do honing to maintain your own razors or to do additional honing? Do you intend to have a few razors, or shall we say, more than a few?

I would like to have more that a few :D razors down the road but for now I have more questions then answers. For now I ordered a new "double arrow" to practice, once I conquer that I am planning to look into some of the older razors on ebay.
03-18-2009, 05:53 AM
Utopian

Okay, one thing about the Double Arrow if that is going to be your (potentially sacrificial) honing practice razor: Some of the Double Arrows have a shoulder at the heel that interferes with honing at the heel. That is, the shoulder protrudes beyond the plane determined by the spine and the edge. To avoid this, make sure that the shoulder is always just off the edge of the hone when you are doing your strokes. If you fail to do this and put the should on the hone, then the razor will only be contacting the hone at the shoulder and at the toe.

I've only honed a couple of Double Arrows and I was not impressed with the steel; though granted, they do only cost $10 so what should I have expected? I had to tweak them a few times to get them shaving well. Personally, I don't think that they are the easiest thing to hone but you have to learn on something and it might as well be something cheap.

Definitely read Bart's thread about setting the bevel on the coticule.

By any chance is your username a GCCACC reference?
03-18-2009, 11:06 PM
kozak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utopian

Okay, one thing about the Double Arrow if that is going to be your (potentially sacrificial) honing practice razor: Some of the Double Arrows have a shoulder at the heel that interferes with honing at the heel. That is, the shoulder protrudes beyond the plane determined by the spine and the edge. To avoid this, make sure that the shoulder is always just off the edge of the hone when you are doing your strokes. If you fail to do this and put the should on the hone, then the razor will only be contacting the hone at the shoulder and at the toe.

I've only honed a couple of Double Arrows and I was not impressed with the steel; though granted, they do only cost $10 so what should I have expected? I had to tweak them a few times to get them shaving well. Personally, I don't think that they are the easiest thing to hone but you have to learn on something and it might as well be something cheap.

Definitely read Bart's thread about setting the bevel on the coticule.

By any chance is your username a GCCACC reference?

I will be sure to pick up sereral more on the bay, to make sure I am not limited to the double arrow.:D

As for my username what does GCCACC mean?
03-18-2009, 11:44 PM
Bart

Quote:

Originally Posted by kozak

I will be sure to pick up sereral more on the bay, to make sure I am not limited to the double arrow.:D

As for my username what does GCCACC mean?

He's referring to a typical sequence in genetic strings, that go by the name "Kozak consensus sequence".

I believe I'm going to change my member name to Minkowski, just to tease him a little.:)

There's a simple honing recipe in the Wiki section, for honing dull razors in fair condition with the use of a Coticule.

I starts out on a DMT 1200, but if your Coticule cuts fast enough with slurry, you can use that instead of the DMT.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...e_and_Coticule

Best regards,
Bart.
03-19-2009, 06:34 AM
Utopian

Quote:

Originally Posted by kozak

I will be sure to pick up sereral more on the bay, to make sure I am not limited to the double arrow.:D

As for my username what does GCCACC mean?

I think that you will have better luck with nearly any German, English, or American razor for honing practice and the nice thing is that you can find some decent razors for $10 on ebay, so they'll cost no more than the DA.

Sorry about the Kozak sequence question. Bart got it right, I thought perhaps your username was a molecular biology reference but since you asked, it's clear I was wrong.
03-19-2009, 01:19 PM
Lynn

For a new person getting into honing, I would strongly recommend the Norton 4K/8K or the Japanese wet stones. These are the most consistent and easiest stones to learn on so that you can repeat results. The Coticule is a good stone for finishing or experimenting with slurry for lower grits, but more time consuming and not anywhere near as consistent.

Good luck,

Lynn
03-19-2009, 07:44 PM
kozak

Thanks for the replies.
I was originally planning on picking up a norton 4k/8k stone and learning the basics, but I got the belgian coticule combo as a birthday gift from my girlfriend. Now I have to go with what I have.

After reading everything I could find and watching the videos by heavydutysg135 and the SRP dvd I think I will go with the norton 4k/1k stone for now to compliment the coticule. I can always pick up more stones down the road. I would love to try a DMT plate but the nortons are availiabe locally.
03-19-2009, 08:04 PM
Bart

Quote:

Originally Posted by kozak

Thanks for the replies.
I was originally planning on picking up a norton 4k/8k stone and learning the basics, but I got the belgian coticule combo as a birthday gift from my girlfriend. Now I have to go with what I have.

After reading everything I could find and watching the videos by heavydutysg135 and the SRP dvd I think I will go with the norton 4k/1k stone for now to compliment the coticule. I can always pick up more stones down the road. I would love to try a DMT plate but the nortons are availiabe locally.

I don't have experience with the Norton hones, but I never used a 4K waterhone that left an edge ready to be finished on a Coticule with water.

If your Coticule has ample speed with slurry, it will do the job of that Norton 1K.
Get a Norton 4K/8K instead. Finish on the Coticule after the 8K, and you'll have great edges. You can always play with slurry later, and if it doesn't work out, you can buy a separate 1K later. Or the DMT 1200.

Trust Lynn's advice.

Bart.
03-19-2009, 09:41 PM
kozak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

I don't have experience with the Norton hones, but I never used a 4K waterhone that left an edge ready to be finished on a Coticule with water.

If your Coticule has ample speed with slurry, it will do the job of that Norton 1K.
Get a Norton 4K/8K instead. Finish on the Coticule after the 8K, and you'll have great edges. You can always play with slurry later, and if it doesn't work out, you can buy a separate 1K later. Or the DMT 1200.

Trust Lynn's advice.

Bart.

Oh I do trust Lynn, I am just a little confused :gth
Can I finish on the blue side of the coticule after the 8k on the Norton or should I go to the yellow side right away?
According to the sellers website blue side = 4000k, yelow = 8000 and with slurry = 6000.

What does "ample speed with slurry" mean?
03-20-2009, 12:44 AM
gugi

Don't worry about finishing. Learn to use your norton, the 8k is all the finishing you need until you can shave comfortably off it. Until you can do that it's better to be spending your time learning how to use the norton instead of trying different finishing hones.
You may end up keeping your belgian combo, but since you can afford the norton i think it's a good choice even if only as a learning tool.
03-20-2009, 03:42 PM
kozak

Thanks for all the advice, I will be getting the norton 4k/8k today.

If i decide to pick up some beat up razors on ebay to practice honing will the 4k side be enough to establish an edge or do I need something in the 1k range (I only ask this because I watched Lynns dvd honing chapten another 5 times yesterday)? LeeValley has a japanese 1200k stone for $29 canadian which will not break the bank.
03-20-2009, 05:17 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by kozak

Thanks for all the advice, I will be getting the norton 4k/8k today.

If i decide to pick up some beat up razors on ebay to practice honing will the 4k side be enough to establish an edge or do I need something in the 1k range (I only ask this because I watched Lynns dvd honing chapten another 5 times yesterday)? LeeValley has a japanese 1200k stone for $29 canadian which will not break the bank.

You can set a bevel on a 4k but it is nice to have the lower grit. Especially if you are working with used razors that may have chipping and may need a lot of metal removed. If it was just for your new razors or shave ready used ones it wouldn't be an advantage. On the beat up ones it is an advantage.