Quick question.
Is it possible that a str8 is sharp but fails on HHT?
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Quick question.
Is it possible that a str8 is sharp but fails on HHT?
happens all the time... the tpt and shave test are much better indicators of shave readyness
Yes. The HHT has some merit, but is no indication of shave readiness. It's possible to pass the HHT, then refine the edge further & it'll fail. It may be that it works best when there are some "teeth" to grab it.
Absolutely. While a positive HHT can indicate a shave-ready razor, a negative HHT doesn't mean it's not shave-ready.
I have several razors that don't quite pass the HHT perfectly but shave fine. My first razor didn't pass it at all and shaved great.
That's why they say the shave test is THE test.
The HHT is a parlor trick that has no value in judging the sharpness of the razor.
I too have had good shaves from razors that don't pass the HHT. OTOH, I have had better shaves from those that do pass. I don't think it is useless in judging how sharp a razor is. Before I could get it on a fairly regular basis I thought that my hair was too fine to get it.
Once I started getting it I knew that my hair wasn't the issue. There are some members who have posted in similar threads that they won't shave with a razor that doesn't pass HHT. I don't take it that far but I do insist that a razor pop hairs easily while suspended above the skin, not touching it. I have found that with the hair popping level of sharpness I get a good shave. If it won't do that it isn't ready IME. YMMV.
So far, I've only had one razor one time pass the HHT test as I've seen it described here (slowly lower a hair onto an upward facing blade and the hair should just fall in two effortlessly). And to be honest, that blade shaved me a little uncomfortably. It felt very sharp but was kind of scratchy and rough feeling, not as smooth as I'd had with other razors. I kind of think maybe it was too sharp for me or something, I'm not sure.
I have another dozen razors or so that will pop my arm and leg hair no problem, above the skin, but won't pass the HHT on that same arm or leg hair or on my fiancee's thin hair from her brush unless I really finagle the test (ie try to cut it very near where I'm pinching the hair, rather than out a 1/2" or so. But all of these razors shave me close and comfortable :shrug: I'm still a newbie, so it could be that these razors aren't as sharp as they could (should?) be, but even still, I'm getting near BBS shaves that are very comfortable, so I'm not really hung up on exactly how sharp (or not) they are. I still strive to be able to get the HHT to pass reliably, and I try it on every razor after I'm done honing, but I'm not there yet.
The HHT isn't a standardized enough test in general to be definitive. I believe it can be useful if you have very controlled variables. For example, hair type will very significantly affect the HHT performance undoubtably. Also, how far away you hold the hair from the razor when you do the test. Etc. If you can get consistent and reliable results by controlling all of these variables, then it is a valid test.
I use the hair off my head as an indicator of shave-readiness, and so far it's been a great test. I don't have long hair, so the hairs I use are 1" or less. That razor better simply pop that hair along all points on the edge or else it's not ready. Every time the razor didn't "pop" the hairs it didn't shave well. But this is how I do it, and my razor will quite possibly fail the HHT if performed by another member's standards.
It's a highly subjective test, so if it works for you, great, but if it doesn't then no biggy. The only true test, I think we can all agree on, is how well it shaves.
I may be fairly new to this, but a) i know what a hair looks like, b) I know how to hold it between my fingers, 3) I know what a centimeter is, and 4) I know Lynn Abrams knows how to hone.
I now have three razors bought new and honed by Lynn. Not one of them "passed" the HHT at any point along the edge, with any (reasonable) thickness of hair, despite repeated trials.
And, yes, each one shaved beautifully.
The HHT means absolutely nothing, IMHO.
Everyone always agrees that the TPT takes practice and one needs to learn how to interpret it. The same thing counts for probing a razor with a hanging hair.
One has to know the hair. One has to know certain things about the status of the edge. One has to calibrate his way of performing it.
I am currently working on a wiki article that offers a workable method for making the test serviceable while honing razors.
Now, you may not need it, fccexpert, and that is fine.
But it is my most used test for honing a razor, and while I always perform a test shave before sending one out, I can pretty much predict how it will shave, based on how the razor responds to the HHT before and after I strop it.
I am usually alone when I hone razors, with no audience but myself, when I sever a hanging hair. I totally don't get it why, every time this method for probing the keenness of a razor is brought up, someone that obviously doesn't use it, chimes in to dismiss it as a "parlor trick".
I looked up "parlor trick". What is a Parlor Trick?
I still don't get it.
Bart.
If it doesn't pass HHT, you should get rid of it and send it to me....:rofl2:
+1 with the other guys, Don't worry about it, The best test is to shave with it. That's my indicator.
These three I have that Lynn honed did the HHT with my hair :shrug: and I have some super fine hair.
[quote=Bart;356865]Everyone always agrees that the TPT takes practice and one needs to learn how to interpret it. The same thing counts for probing a razor with a hanging hair.
One has to know the hair. One has to know certain things about the status of the edge. One has to calibrate his way of performing it.
I am currently working on a wiki article that offers a workable method for making the test serviceable while honing razors.
Now, you may not need it, fccexpert, and that is fine.
But it is my most used test for honing a razor, and while I always perform a test shave before sending one out, I can pretty much predict how it will shave, based on how the razor responds to the HHT before and after I strop it.
I am usually alone when I hone razors, with no audience but myself, when I sever a hanging hair. I totally don't get it why, every time this method for probing the keenness of a razor is brought up, someone that obviously doesn't use it, chimes in to dismiss it as a "parlor trick".
I looked up "parlor trick". What is a Parlor Trick?
A parlor trick it something done for the amusement/amazement of others (think "magic trick") at a social gathering (e.g., a party held in someone's "parlor"). ("Parlor" may be a regional term -- I'm from New England originally, and a parlor is roughly equivalent to a "sitting room," or "day room," or "living room," or in the early 21st Century maybe "the TV room"). The implication is that the HHT is uselss in and of itself, but may be used to amuse others or oneself. Hope this helps.
Hey, pssstttt....
(whispering) Rethoric questions are not meant to be answered.
Besides that, I included the link. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that I also read it? (rethoric question)
The HHT is far less useless than you think. You may not use or need it, but that doesn't mean that other people don't have a meaningful use for it.
I shave with a straight razor because the craftiness of it appeals to me. I don't shave with a straight razor because I want to impress my friends. The same thing applies to the HHT. Do you honestly believe I would do it to impress myself while honing razors? (rethoric question)
The TNT, TPT, MMT, microscopical inspection, and the HHT are all ways to probe the edge during certain stages of honing. Some people favor one or two for those methods, some use them all, others use none. Fine with me.
So now I ask you, non-rethorically: all of us that partially rely on the HHT for knowing when to do what, at certain junctions whule honing a razor, are we all idiots?
Bart.
Bart:
I am not the one who called it a parlor trick. And I certainly did not call anyone who used HHT an idiot, although I do feel like an idiot myself for wasting my time (and yours) in trying to respond to what I thought was a legitimate question asked by member of this forum.
My original posted statement earlier is and was that, IMHO, and from my experience as described, the HHT is useless (to me). I understand that it is useful to you, and I believe that to be the case. I was describing my experience in response to the initial question in the thread, which I do believe was legitimate and not rhetorical. And the "implication" you emphasized did not represent my thought -- it was what I believed the individual who posted the "parlor trick" comment was suggesting. Again, I was truly under the impression that you were not familiar with this phrase.
I did not intend to offend anyone.
Just to throw this honing newb's take on things out there.
SO FAR....if a razor passes HHT with my wife's hair....100% of these razors have given me VERY VERY VERY good shaves.
SO FAR....if a razor fails HHT with my wife's hair...100% of these razors have given POOR or TERRIBLE shaves.
So, FOR ME, and SO FAR, it is a very usefull test. I could, however, live without it, and use other tests. Until it fails me, though, I will continue to use it.
PCB,
I'm sorry for making such a harsh statement to your post. What you could not know, being relatively new to the forums, was that on every single thread about the HHT, people that use nor know the HHT, chime in to tackle all intelligent discussion with the "parlor trick" dismissal. I kinda had it with that, but I shouldn't have directed that to you.
As for the HHT, you might have no use for it right now, or not even ever at all. I don't know if you are honing your own razors, but if you do, or intent to in the future, here are a few finer points that I consider important for turning the HHT in a successful probing method.
1. Use clean human hair, that was harvested when it was freshly washed. I recommend keeping a small strand of hair with a length of about 2.5" in a little container, so you can always rely on the same hair.
2. Hold the hair between thumb and index finger at the root side. The outer hull of a hair, called "cuticle" is a single layer of cells arranged like roof shingles. Once the edge of a razor catches between those shingles, there is no escape: the hair will be severed (or sliced lengthwise). For this reason the hair must be held at the root side and the razor may be angled slightly to allow it to catch the hair better.
3. Moisten the hair prior to the test. Hair is extremely hygroscopic. The inner part takes up moisture very quickly, expanding and causing the cuticle shingles to open up a bit. This is the main reason why we prep our beard prior to shaving it, and for the same reason we should prep the hair before performing the HHT.
Furthermore, wetting the hair rules out any significant differences in relative humidity that may affect the outcome of the test at various moments. A valid way to moisten the hair, is to run it between a wetted thumb and index finger and wait a few seconds for the hair to adapt.
When these 3 terms are met, the HHT becomes much more calibrated, and you'd be surprised how consistently it can tell you things about the edge at various honing stages.
There are several results to be discerned. Here's my personal scale:
HHT 0 (zero): the hair can be shaved immediately at the holding point. This is strictly spoken not a true HHT, but it does tell us that the edge is capable of shaving.
[all other attempts must be made at least half an inch from the holding point)
HHT 1: the hair doesn't cut, but it "plays violin" with the edge. This is due to the shingles catching the edge, but it's not sharp enough to penetrate. On a full hollow razor, a faint ringing sound can be heard. On all razors it can be felt with the fingertips that hold the hair.
HHT2: When it is dragged across the edge, the edge catches the hair and splits it lengthwise
HHT 3: When it is dragged across the edge a bit, the edge catches the hair and pops it. The severed part will jump away.
HHT 4: The hair is popped immediately when it touches the edge. It still jumps away.
HHT 5: The hair falls silently as soon as it touches the edge.
These results all have different meanings at different honing stages. For further explanation, you'll have to await my wiki article on this topic, but I can reveal that I find the HHT especially usefull for knowing when a bevel is fully developed and also for reaching the desired keenness before finishing the edge and during the very first stropping session (which is often underestimated, imo).
Best regards,
Bart.
This is the best and most detailed description I've heard on the HHT test. I can't wait for your wiki entry, it will be an invaluable addition. I guess I've been doing it all wrong, I'm now curious to try it the way you do. Particularly the wetting the the hair and tilting the razor slightly parts.
Bart: I truly appreciate your generous response.
As you know, I am new to this. I had no idea that the HHT was as specific in detail as your description. I've seen a few videos, and it appeared to me that one just grasped the hair (I knew it was near the root) and did it. Seemed very simple.
I will follow your instructions and keep at it. Interestingly, after stropping my Bismarck about an hour ago (also still trying to get the stropping thing down, so I did 30 on the linen and about 100 on the Latigo for the practice), I had a revelation. For the first time, I could feel the "stickiness" of the TPT. Felt it a little too well, actually, but my satisfaction at finally "getting" that test was greater than the discomfort (no blood, just a visible slice -- doesn't hurt now). Flush with triumph, I found a hair in the sink (it was wet, at least) and tried the HHT. Pop, pop, pop, up and down the length of the blade!
These small epiphanies in straight shaving occur almost daily, and are a great source of joy for me. I appreciate your effort to educate me, and I hopethat one day I will have the knowledge to help others learn this fascinating art.
Great post Bart !!!!
However I am now checking the shave den to see where it was that you hid the freaking camera......:)
Wow Bart, I have never read such a thorough description of the HHT!! But I like it. :tu
Thanks Bart. That put a whole new spin on the HHT for me. I've never been able to get the HHT to work for me, even with str8s honed by professionals here. I can't wait to give your HHT method a try.
Looking forward to that Wiki article, Bart. Thanks.
Someone (forgot who) made a post telling that he hones on 4k until the blade passes the HHT and then he moves to 8k.
I've honed and honed and my str8 barely passes HHT, then I give up hope and move to 8k.
I have a good quality high carbon/full hollow ground Tennis (Solingen) str8...my thanks to gugi.
What do you guys think?
In my opinion if a razor passes HHT off norton 4000 it's not ready. There are very few razors that are an exceptions to this, but even those would require a very experienced hand to get it.
Its not hard to cut hanging hair with a jagged edge, but a good edge should be smooth. I don't believe the 4k norton can produce that edge unless the steel is very special (I once shaved very comfortably with a razor off dmt-1200, but it took me probably an hour of honing before that, very tough steel).
Off the 4k level the razor should shave armhair easily. If it almost passes hht at 8k, I'd say go to the strop. It would be good to have a canvas piece, but since you don't you can make one from an old pair of jeans - that cotton works very well.
Also your strop is horsehide which in my opinion is quite efficient, so perhaps just trying that would work very well too. Test the HHT as you strop, you should notice how the way the hair is cut changes.
I would say at this stage just doing Lynn's pyramids between the 4k and the 8k is enough. It should only need few strokes, just the right ones. You'll get the hang of it.