5th shave not as good

I have a couple questions. But first...

I have a Double Arrow that I'm starting with that was honed by Ron. First shaves were amazing!

Before shaving yesterday, I stropped it about fifty times. The shave was an
experience in dragging all the way through, even with the grain.


I've had a couple thoughts. :thinking:
First was that the lather was too thick, so I thinned it out. No help. Of course then I thought I screwed up the stropping.

I don't have a thick beard, but I think it is coarse. I've got really curly, coarse hair on top of the brain holder and the same for a beard. If I had red hair, I'd look like Bozo's son.

I thought I should get more than four shaves before a tune up with a barber's hone, but I don't know.

I spent well over an hour today lapping a Carborundum barber's hone with 220 g. wet/dry paper. Man, is that stone tuff.

So, question is, how many shaves do you senior guys get before you have to tune up an edge? I realize beard tuffness is part of the equation. I've read to shave with a razor until you feel the shave isn't as good as you feel it should be, then tune up. I just thought it would be more than four.

Maybe I'm off the mark here. Any advice is appreciated.

Also, If the razor was honed taped, should the touch up also be with tape? I'm thinking yes, for bevel integrity.

Thanks,
Kev

Yes your beard has tons to do with it, BUT how ever many shaves you get out of a razor when you first start, should at least double, if not triple within a short amount of time....
As you get better at all the other things having to do with the shave, from stropping to lather making....

I concur with Glen about the beard, etc. I also think that you are still in the learning curve for pressures and angles. Don't get frustrated over it. Patience. It will settle in time to a consistent (and better) shave. As with all new things you will have peaks and valleys for performance until it all comes together consistently. We've all been there. :)

I agree with above said and like to add couple things.
At first if blade has shave 4 times without problems then that blade was in shave ready condition.
Next is blades quality Sorry double A isn't such a great quality blade.
Now it could be something wrong with your stropping. Please strop it again without any pressure to the blade and see does that changes sharpness of the blade.
Next you can buy chro2 and bring that sharpness back.
hope this helps.

Great advice from everyone. Now from the peanut gallery! If you think you ganked up the edge by stropping, what results do you think you might get by hoaning? I would follow hi bud gl's advice and get som Chromium Oxide, read up on how to prepare a strop with it, and then give that a go to bring the edge back to life before I would move to a stone. Maybe after you are successful with the strop and past you could move to something a little more aggressive. Keep at it.

Just my two cents.

_________________
Ray

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kevbell

Also, If the razor was honed taped, should the touch up also be with tape? I'm thinking yes, for bevel integrity.

---

Yes, if you want to make is easy, you don't have to, but if I were you, I would, if Ron taped the one he did, I know for sure I taped the others I did for you, so all your razors would be the same....

Also what Sham/hi-bud said about the DA steel is true, I am trying to remember the brands of razors I honed for you??? you might try one of them and see what they do....

You said you stropped 50 times. I assume that was leather. Do you have a canvas/linen/cotton strop? That might help.

Also, I'd guess the stropping is the issue. I'm not a huge fan of anything made in China, but even the DA razors hold an edge longer than that. I doubt your lathering changed so much for that to be the trouble.

Assuming the stropping is the problem. You might have stropped incorrectly and rolled the edge. This might be corrected, depending on degree, with say 100 laps done correctly. On the other hand, you may be stropping so lightly that you in effect are not benefiting the edge at all. You want to strop lightly, but you do have to use some pressure.

Hopefully, you can figure it out. Obviously you still have four razors at your disposal but I'm sure you want to figure this out before risking damage to them. If you can't resolve it, you can send the DA back to me and I can look at the edge under a scope to see if I can determine what caused the problem. I'd touch it up again and then you'd be good to go for another four shaves!:gaah:

(There'd be no charge other than postage.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yes, if you want to make is easy, you don't have to, but if I were you, I would, if Ron taped the one he did, I know for sure I taped the others I did for you, so all your razors would be the same....

Also what Sham/hi-bud said about the DA steel is true, I am trying to remember the brands of razors I honed for you??? you might try one of them and see what they do....

---

Yes, Ron taped it, as you did. He also did up a Red Injun for me. You did a Satinedge, Geneva and Genco.

I think I'll stay at the DA for a little bit to see if I can straighten it out. I'll have to figure out how to do it someday, anyway. If I get two or three bad ones while trying to straighten it out, I'll look at other options. Your suggestion and Ron's below.

I was on another forum and a new(er) SR guy was asking about experiences with Godrej cream, that he had a terrible pulling experience with it. I replied that, yes, in fact the day of my bad shave was with the same cream.
My good shaves had been with a superlather with Tabac soap and cream. Just another thought..or grasping into thin air.


Thanks,
Kev

Okay, maybe it is your lather! I didn't think the difference would be that extreme. In that case, I suggest you go back to the Tabac!:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

You said you stropped 50 times. I assume that was leather. Do you have a canvas/linen/cotton strop? That might help.

Also, I'd guess the stropping is the issue. I'm not a huge fan of anything made in China, but even the DA razors hold an edge longer than that. I doubt your lathering changed so much for that to be the trouble.

Assuming the stropping is the problem. You might have stropped incorrectly and rolled the edge. This might be corrected, depending on degree, with say 100 laps done correctly. On the other hand, you may be stropping so lightly that you in effect are not benefiting the edge at all. You want to strop lightly, but you do have to use some pressure.

Hopefully, you can figure it out. Obviously you still have four razors at your disposal but I'm sure you want to figure this out before risking damage to them. If you can't resolve it, you can send the DA back to me and I can look at the edge under a scope to see if I can determine what caused the problem. I'd touch it up again and then you'd be good to go for another four shaves!:gaah:

(There'd be no charge other than postage.)

---

Hello, Ron

The strop I'm using for now is a Miller starter latigo strop. I ordered it with my "regular" linen/latigo and horsehide set-up. So, yes, I do have linen.

I will try the linen and then the latigo. I was hoping to hold off on the linen for a bit longer to reduce the chance of making a two piece linen strop, but this may have just pushed up the learning curve. I'll also give it a bit more pressure.


Thanks, everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

Kev

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dward

I concur with Glen about the beard, etc. I also think that you are still in the learning curve for pressures and angles. Don't get frustrated over it. Patience. It will settle in time to a consistent (and better) shave. As with all new things you will have peaks and valleys for performance until it all comes together consistently. We've all been there. :)

---

I was really concerned, and concentrated on angle. Really worked at keeping the blade at 30 d. or less. The razor shaved, it just pulled and was uncomfortable. I did have stubble in the cream residue. The blade (or me) just wasn't cutting as efficiently or closely.

thanks for the encouragement

Kev

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

Okay, maybe it is your lather! I didn't think the difference would be that extreme. In that case, I suggest you go back to the Tabac!:)

---

I'll call it my "Simplest Correction Progression"! :D I'll start off with the lather along with a good stropping and see how that does.

Kevin

If you're new to stropping you can also quickly dull a very sharp razor in minutes. Are you sure you're stropping correctly with enough draw and you're not under drawing on the strop or stropping incorrectly altogether? This was my problem when I first started. I dulled a few of my razors within a week of using them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rayman

Great advice from everyone. Now from the peanut gallery! If you think you ganked up the edge by stropping, what results do you think you might get by hoaning? I would follow hi bud gl's advice and get som Chromium Oxide, read up on how to prepare a strop with it, and then give that a go to bring the edge back to life before I would move to a stone. Maybe after you are successful with the strop and past you could move to something a little more aggressive. Keep at it.

Just my two cents.

_________________
Ray

---

Well, I'm not, and wasn't at the time I posted, sure if I ganked up the edge by stropping or if my beard may have degraded the edge enough in a few shaves to require a touch up. I've read where some folks will touch up a razor every time they pull it out, or every few shaves. I'm sure not everyone does, and as new as I am, I'm not sure if I'm a candidate for that or not.

Thanks for the response, Ray. This is exactly what I was looking for, different ideas. As I said above, though not clearly, I have one strop set-up, and that won't get pasted. I have, however, been reading about the balsa pasting, which may be an option.

Man, I've got to get the hang of multi-quoting.

Thanks, all, for your time and advice.
Kev

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kevbell

Hello, Ron

The strop I'm using for now is a Miller starter latigo strop. I ordered it with my "regular" linen/latigo and horsehide set-up. So, yes, I do have linen.

I will try the linen and then the latigo. I was hoping to hold off on the linen for a bit longer to reduce the chance of making a two piece linen strop, but this may have just pushed up the learning curve. I'll also give it a bit more pressure.


Thanks, everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

Kev

---

:rofl2:
To avoid making the two piece linen strop, do about 10 laps on your starter strop. That will reinforce your "short term muscle memory" of the proper way to strop. THEN proceed to the linen and then the leather. That should help to keep your good strop intact.

Use more pressure only if you believe that you were not using enough pressure. Good luck!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Disburden

If you're new to stropping you can also quickly dull a very sharp razor in minutes. Are you sure you're stropping correctly with enough draw and you're not under drawing on the strop or stropping incorrectly altogether? This was my problem when I first started. I dulled a few of my razors within a week of using them.

---

Hi Nick,

Thanks for joining in. No, I don't know if I'm stropping correctly. I had thought I was. I've read the wiki and watched the videos. But as I'm sure most everyone here knows, reading and watching is sometimes easier than doing.

I've understood keeping the strop taught (sp). Doorknob height seems about right for me. I know that a bit more pressure is needed than just the weight of the razor on the strop and that too much will round the edge. Somewhere between 25 and 50 complete laps are usually a good number, depending on the blade.

With that limited knowledge, I have four stropping sessions under my belt with a Miller learner's strop. No linen.

What I thought was enough pressure may in fact have not been. I don't know. What do you mean by "stropping with enough draw" and "under drawing"?

I've been concentrating on a somewhat slow, deliberate x-pattern stroke on the strop with the edge following the spine. I've also been watching to be sure the whole blade stays on the leather, not just the back or edge. I've caught myself a few times thinking/realizing that the edge was off the strop ever so little and that it needs to stay down.

Kev

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kevbell

I've been concentrating on a somewhat slow, deliberate x-pattern stroke on the strop with the edge following the spine. I've also been watching to be sure the whole blade stays on the leather, not just the back or edge. I've caught myself a few times thinking/realizing that the edge was off the strop ever so little and that it needs to stay down.

Kev

---

Hi Kev,

I've been sweating my first strop which I will be doing tomorrow. I too have been doing the slow, deliberate x-pattern, which is what the instructions that came with my strops say to do. Not super slow, but maybe 1 second up, and 1 sec. down the strop. Is that too fast? Too slow?

I'm usually a 'too much pressure' kind of guy. The saying among the men in my family (especially while fixing cars) is "Tighten until it strips, then back off 2 turns."

So, I'm planning to err on the side of very light pressure and see how that goes. Thanks for bringing this up though, every little bit helps, that's for sure.

I've been practicing a heck of a lot with a butter knife, but I don't know how close that's getting me to the real deal.

WP421

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

At first if blade has shave 4 times without problems then that blade was in shave ready condition."


There is no doubt the razor was shave ready. Ron (Utopian) did a great job on it. As i said in another thread, the shaves were amazing and with no pressure needed. I had a SEG on my face all day! :D



"Next is blades quality Sorry double A isn't such a great quality blade."

Understood. I was more willing to screw up this blade with a newb disaster than one of my better razors.


"Now it could be something wrong with your stropping. Please strop it again without any pressure to the blade and see does that changes sharpness of the blade.
Next you can buy chro2 and bring that sharpness back.
hope this helps."

---

Thank-you
Kevin

It's hard to say if you're even stropping incorrectly, I think I was lucky enough to see that I was doing it wrong rather quickly. If you're hearing a light swiping feedback noise when you're stropping, then you're doing it wrong. The sound should be muted and full sounding, with draw on the blade (a form of resistance on the leather if you will). Speed also makes the stropping more effective. We go slow when we learn, because we don't want to ruin our razors or our strops with nicks, but going slow really doesn't do much for the blade other than help you learn the motion better and help the blade in the long term by developing muscle memory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by warpigs421

Hi Kev,

. Not super slow, but maybe 1 second up, and 1 sec. down the strop. Is that too fast? Too slow?

I'm usually a 'too much pressure' kind of guy. The saying among the men in my family (especially while fixing cars) is "Tighten until it strips, then back off 2 turns."

So, I'm planning to err on the side of very light pressure and see how that goes. Thanks for bringing this up though, every little bit helps, that's for sure.

I've been practicing a heck of a lot with a butter knife, but I don't know how close that's getting me to the real deal.

WP421

---

I can't tell you if that's too fast or slow. I'm sure someone will give us an idea.

And as long as you don't have to tell your wife/gf/both to tighten it until it strips and then back off a couple, everything else should be aaallright.

kev

Interesting thread for me as I'm having similar issues...

Had my two razors honed by Glen and they were sharp as could be...

Ruined one edge shortly thereafter by rolling (rolled the wrong way two passes on a leather strop when I wasn't thinking) as well as nicking on my belt buckle (don't ask)...

The other razor started as an excellent shaver. On my tenth shave or so now though and slowly degrading every shave. Still pops the hair off my arm... but doesn't seem to pass a HHT... Stropping 25 on canvas and 50 on leather before every shave; with at least 10 on canvas and 20 on leather afterwards to clean off the blade.

Blade is starting to pull a bit and irritate the neck as well. Maybe I need to add an XTG pass? My beard is quite thick. Stropping mid shave helps briefly, but not for long...

Sigh... this is clearly not a hobby yielding quick results... good news is my rehoned blade should be back soon... bad news is I leave for a 4 month military deployment in two days, blade may not be back soon enough!

Cheers,

- HJ

First of all, thanks everyone for your advice.

I decided to shower and shave tonight. I couldn't stand three days growth anymore.

Before the shower, I stropped about twenty on the practice strop. Then I moved to the linen for around thirty and the the good 3" strop for about fifty. I decided not to "baby" the stropping, and to apply a bit more pressure. It certainly felt and sounded a bit different than my last outing.

One thing I did notice on the practice strop was that a few times on the stroke toward the door, the toe of the blade left a arcing lighter colored drag mark. Frustrating. I think this is from uneven pressure on the strop with the razor. While doing the x-pattern, the anchor end (head) of the strop would twist also.

I concentrated more with the good strop and this didn't happen.

After the shower I made up some Tabac and Wars and kept it looser that the last time, also.

Anywho, the shave was much better than last time. Hopefully, it was insufficient stropping or bad technique last time and improved this time.

It took several passes but I am once again pleased. I read somewhere that you can probably count on as many passes with a straight as you did with a DE or SE. This was true tonight. Rarely am I a two pass kind of a guy, unless I absolutely have to stop. My beard grows every direction I possibly can, and that is in just one area.

Against the grain is out of the question for now. I tried, ever so lightly, a couple times. The razor stopped dead in its own tracks. A couple xtg were successful, though.

So.....we'll see what tomorrow brings......:hmmm:

Good shaving,
kevin

Seemed like the stropping idea could have been the issue. Also how does the razor stop dead in it's tracks when you go ATG? That seems like another issue to me also, like the razor may have been dulled by improper stropping. Next time you strop try a higher count of Linen and leather, something like 40/100. See if this eases the difficulty of the ATG pass. The razor should cut easily ATG, even on your neck as long as you stretch very tight and have a good angle. The razor should be almost completely flat on our face when you go ATG.

I do the same amount of passes with a straight that I did with my DEs. The only difference is, my neck feels smoother when I rub it atg, and my skin is a lot better than it has even been with a DE.

I wonder if starting out with latigo is a contributing
factor to stropping difficulties. A flatter, smoother
leather with less draw might be more appropriate.

Anyways, I recommend 60/60 as the number of
passes each day before shaving. I think I may do
an experiment with leather only to see how that
goes so I can be of more help to new shavers who
don't use linen.

:gl:

- Scott