Scything questions

So, I've recently started using a straight (5 shaves so far, a few tiny wee nicks and two slices so far), and found myself wondering about this scything action. Currently, I can get my angles and pressure pretty damn good on my cheek area, and am working on my neck and chin. Should I also be working on getting that scything action mentioned in the wiki down now, or should I wait until I can get a good shave almost every time using my current technique (blade basically just scraping off the lather and bristles)?

As long as you keep the pressure down to a minimum (ideally, none at all), you should be safe. Learning scything and guillotine motions is a good thing, though, in my opinion. But we put them in Advanced shaving techniques for the straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki for a reason :)

Scything implies you do a slightly slicing motion. This significantly increases the chance of slicing you skin as well. If you rest the cutting edge of your blade on the skin you will not cut yourself. As soon as you start a slicing movement your will cut yourself.

Same with slicing. I never do it.

While it does increase the chances of cutting yourself, if you go slowly and carefully it works well. Once I started using the scything and guillotine strokes my shaves improved in comfort and closeness. As always, YMMV.

At barber college we were taught to do the scything motion from the getgo, however we were doing it on someone else.
What will make it a little easier is not to slid the whole arm, but to just bend wrist sideways as you make the stroke.

Scything works best when you do it subconsciously IMO. The skill is picked up without even realising it.

I think you word it well when you say that if you aren't scything, you are scraping. But that makes it sound much worse than it should. Using a "scraping" motion has its benefits for beginners - it reduces the chance of cutting yourself (unless you use too much pressure.) It helps you learn good angles and pressure, and lets you know if the blade is sharp enough.

If you start scything too early in the learning process it can cover for bad technique or a poor blade, so it slows your learning.

I think it would be easier to start with the guillotine stroke before the scything stroke. At any rate, you must have a good, confident stroke with no pressure. I did not try the scything stroke until I had shaved with a str8 45 times or so and I did cut myself the first time.

:gl:

It is a useful technique, but I have to admit it does take practice. I've been shaving with a straight for almost a year now (:eek: has it been that long already??) and find it a useful stroke but it took some time to get right. But, only a few weeks ago I got a good sized cut right on the underside of my chin from doing a slicing motion, as I had too much sideways motion and not enough downward motion...

It's important to do a nice smooth stroke as well as keeping a very light touch, so if you do hit a snag you won't dig the razor into your face. :p

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

As long as you keep the pressure down to a minimum (ideally, none at all), you should be safe. Learning scything and guillotine motions is a good thing, though, in my opinion. But we put them in Advanced shaving techniques for the straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki for a reason :)

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+1 If you only have 5 straight razor shaves down with some nicks and a couple of slices I suggest that you put this thought on the back burner for a while. It is an advances technique and should be attempted AFTER you don't have to think about straight shaving in the basic style.

That said, the decision and the consequences of you actions are your own responsibility.

I don't mean to sound negative about your question, just answering your question in plain English.

Good luck with your straight shaves. :gl:

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Originally Posted by Kees

Scything implies you do a slightly slicing motion. This significantly increases the chance of slicing you skin as well. If you rest the cutting edge of your blade on the skin you will not cut yourself. As soon as you start a slicing movement your will cut yourself.

Same with slicing. I never do it.

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A scything motion is not the same thing as a slicing motion. A scything motion is nothing more that a curved stroke. The easiest way to explain the mechanics, at least for me, that as you move the blade linearly (for example down your the side of your face) you also pivot the razor about the point where the blade and scales intersect. I use my wrist to do this, while I use my arm for the linear motion.

I'm with Tonsor, the guillotine stroke is easy, pretty safe compared to the other two, and works just about as well as scything and slicing. Once you put the blade at a slight angle off the horizontal, it's easy to just stroke straight down (or adjust as needed for strokes that are not vertical). Except for starting with either the toe or the heel higher than the other end by a few degrees, it's pretty much the same as a plain stroke.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

A scything motion is not the same thing as a slicing motion. A scything motion is nothing more that a curved stroke. The easiest way to explain the mechanics, at least for me, that as you move the blade linearly (for example down your the side of your face) you also pivot the razor about the point where the blade and scales intersect. I use my wrist to do this, while I use my arm for the linear motion.

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Unfortunately there are two different methods that are called scything - the one you describe, and this one:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...tml#post313829
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...le-slicing.jpg
The image on the left is what most of us (and the old barber texts) mean by scything. On the right you see the guillotine method.

And if you look closely you will see they are the same diagram! The two methods are one and the same. However, I believe it is safer to think of it as a guillotine action, you only need to think about movement in one dimension and you are less likely to mess up as a result of thinking about a sideways motion.

a safe way to start learning is to lead with the heel

it is closest to your hand and you have lots of control

I have 2 or more inches of lateral motion on every pass, very similar to the 45 used when honing

in other words, the toe ends up where the heel started

Thanks Joe, that was exactly what I was after - just wanted to know if I should be learning this technique from the get-go or holding off on it.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

A scything motion is not the same thing as a slicing motion. A scything motion is nothing more that a curved stroke. The easiest way to explain the mechanics, at least for me, that as you move the blade linearly (for example down your the side of your face) you also pivot the razor about the point where the blade and scales intersect. I use my wrist to do this, while I use my arm for the linear motion.

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But scything has an element of slicing in it as you can read here (quoted from the SRP wiki):

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The scything motion

The easiest way to move a razor over the skin, is to guide it in a direction, perpendicular to the edge. As a result the razor “chops” the hairs, much like an axe chops a young branch off a tree, with one blow. Out of a physical viewpoint this way of severing something requires the most force and is the hardest on the cutting edge. By adding a slight slicing motion to the blade, the cutting action becomes more effective.

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For most of my shaves I have to wear contacts to be able to see my face in the mirror. On the times when I wear my glasses instead I have to start the stroke with a guillotine type stroke just to get around my glasses. I say just give it a go. The worst you will do is give yourself a nasty nick or slice and have to stop shaving for a day or two. Its not like your chin will fall off into the sink.

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Originally Posted by Kees

But scything has an element of slicing in it as you can read here (quoted from the SRP wiki):

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Granted, is slices through the hair shafts, but it does not slice across the face. To me, a slicing motion (across the face) would involve moving the razor sideways (parallel to the blade edge) or diagonally (at an angle that is not normal to the blade edge). With the scything motion, the direction of travel is always normal to the edge.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

Granted, is slices through the hair shafts, but it does not slice across the face. To me, a slicing motion (across the face) would involve moving the razor sideways (parallel to the blade edge) or diagonally (at an angle that is not normal to the blade edge). With the scything motion, the direction of travel is always normal to the edge.

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:confused::confused::confused:

Chaps, would you please review Shaving passes - Straight Razor Place Wiki, and adapt it accordingly?

Props and kudos to TexasBob and Puffah for the images and additional text.

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

Unfortunately there are two different methods that are called scything - the one you describe, and this one:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...tml#post313829
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...le-slicing.jpg
The image on the left is what most of us (and the old barber texts) mean by scything. On the right you see the guillotine method.

And if you look closely you will see they are the same diagram! The two methods are one and the same. However, I believe it is safer to think of it as a guillotine action, you only need to think about movement in one dimension and you are less likely to mess up as a result of thinking about a sideways motion.

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Well, they do not look the same to me since the vectors indicating the path of the blade are totally different, and neither shows a proper scything motion.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

Well, they do not look the same to me since the vectors indicating the path of the blade are totally different

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Precisely. It is an identical technique being used in a different direction.
Those two diagrams are the same one. Only the viewpoint has changed.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

neither shows a proper scything motion.

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The scythe analogy has been used to describe a cutting motion with a slicing action at least as far back as Perret's "La Pogonotomie" (1770)

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Originally Posted by Perret's "La Pogonotomie"

A razor's edge needs teeth, because its action is not to cut, nor to slash or hack, but to scythe.

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If you watch a video of scything, then sure, the handle is being rotated, but the key point is that the blade slices through the grass.
Maybe it's a poor choice of word because it can be interpreted two ways, but I'm pretty sure that the traditional interpretation was a diagonal stroke, not a rotational one.

Perfect close-up example of how a scythe cuts here, you'll have to click the box twice, as it won't embed. The sharp edge of the blade is facing the user:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KciDA...eature=related

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Originally Posted by Perret's "La Pogonotomie"
A razor's edge needs teeth, because its action is not to cut, nor to slash or hack, but to scythe.

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Of course we should not forget that razors in those days (late 17 hundreds) are imcomparable to the razors of these days. I remember a review on a Civil War era razor on SRP. Reviewer commented that the steel was not so hard and it took more effort to cut hairs. I find that last century's razors don't need a slicing action. But that's me.

You might find it useful to try these strokes using a DE razor for a while to get used to them before trying them with a straight.But man alive they don't half get rid of the most hard to shift areas.