Stropping only on pasted strops

Why is the standard to strop on plain leather every day and hone every few months instead of honing once and maintaining indefinitely by doing only a few strokes every day on a pasted strop?

It seems like it's a choice between letting the edge slowly deteriorate until the shave is noticeably/significantly worse and then doing a full honing session/sending it off and just stropping a few times per day on a pasted strop and always having a 'fresh' edge.

I was gonna speculate as to the responses I'd get, and give my thoughts on them, but I'll just see what you guys actually say first :)

When you strop with pastes you tend to round the edge. It is still effective but you will reach a point where you will not get very many shaves out of a stropping. When I first started I had my razor honed and bought a 8EE diamond plate and a 4 sided paddle and had 2.0,1.0,0.5, and 0.25 micron pastes. Worked very well and I could keep a blade going for almost a year but eventually one has to reset the bevel if you want a really a keen edge that will hold up. I then bought a 16K Shapton and started giving my razors a final stropping of 0.5 Green Chromium for about 6 strokes and eliminated the 1.0 paste. What I found is that now I was able to get a longer lasting blade and smoother shave. I think the 16K, which is 1.0 micron, let the blade keep its bevel better before going to the pastes. I now only have to drop back to a Coticule for about 10 strokes and work up with very few stokes on each step. Seems like this is happening about every 3 months or so. I may be to particular with the sharpness and smoothness of my razors but to each his own.

I am sure others with more experience will weigh in but the important thing is to use something that works for you. I have found for the money the 4 sided strop was cost effective and worked very well for me when I was a total noob.

Take care,
Richard

Some guys did exactly what you are talking about. I don't because I think it will, over time, waste more razor than periodic honing. In part because of what the above poster was talking about but also because the razor will be seeing far more hone time than one that is just honed up once it dulls.

I think stropping in general is the least understood part of our hobby, and more people other then just mparker and AFdavis need to do some serious experimenting....

I have for a long time believed the stropping on pasted strops creates a concave edge and eventually you have to hone...I am not as convinced of this any more.
We here at SRP tend to be a hone based forum, we are all about the hones, strops are a distant second, the red headed step child of keeping our razors sharp... I think we are going to eventually find that the strops and stropping in general are much more important then we realized....

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think stropping in general is the least understood part of our hobby, and more people other then just mparker and AFdavis need to do some serious experimenting....

I have for a long time believed the stropping on pasted strops creates a concave edge and eventually you have to hone...I am not as convinced of this any more.
We here at SRP tend to be a hone based forum, we are all about the hones, strops are a distant second, the red headed step child of keeping our razors sharp... I think we are going to eventually find that the strops and stropping in general are much more important then we realized....

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I think you're right Glen. I have followed mparker's and Alan's posts on stropping since I've been around. I must have read this thread here more times than I could count. I have been really concentrating on my stroke with stropping and not doing it on auto pilot . I personally only use a pasted strop, paddle, flatbed, blasa.... occasionally if I feel the razor 'needs' it. My daily driver is clean leather and webbed fabric.

I agree completely, Glen. I never bought into the argument that a pasted edge needs more attention to keep it keen than a honed edge. I'm not saying that I don't believe that necessarily, my argument to that is that I don't see increased maintenance as a serious detraction. My pasted paddles are easily accessible. A few passes on them to refresh more often that a re-hone, I don't see the downside.

I'm experimenting a ton with pastes right now and intend on exploring it a bunch more. I'm still cautious on how I feel about pastes in general (other than chrome ox which for me is a proven ingredient in my honing process) but time will solidify my experiences with the pastes.

Chris L

If you strop on something fairly rigid, like balsa or pine the rounding problem would be reduced. You could also use lapping films on glass which should completely get rid of it.

Riooso, are you saying that you did this for a year (on leather?) and that by the end the final edge was obtuse enough to shave noticeably worse? Did you measure how much more obtuse it was?

I think because honing on a typical hone is the classic way to maintain an edge people tend to kind of look down on the strop way to maintain an edge. So we tend to look for bad stories about what happens if you only use a strop down the road. Like Glen I'm not so sure about the negatives we hear about using a strop. I don't think I have ever actually read a post here where someone has said gee I've been maintaining my edge for a year and a half on a strop and now my razor won't shave worth a damn and now I had to use a hone and its great again. Yes I've seen pictures of edges and stories concerning theory but no real experiences.

I'm thinking more and more it's an all roads lead to Rome type of thing.

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Originally Posted by jimmyh

If you strop on something fairly rigid, like balsa or pine the rounding problem would be reduced. You could also use lapping films on glass which should completely get rid of it.

Riooso, are you saying that you did this for a year (on leather?) and that by the end the final edge was obtuse enough to shave noticeably worse? Did you measure how much more obtuse it was?

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The strop that I use is a Tony Miller 4 sided strop and it has leather on each side. What happens is that pretty soon you end with a razor that will not hold an edge very long at all, like 4 shaves instead of at least 10. Stropping is a dragging motion and honing is a cutting action, very different methods of sharpening.

I consider a 4 sided strop and a 8EE diamond plate one of the very best ways for a beginner to keep a razor very sharp, and at the same time the total investment is about $100. You will learn a lot and when it is time to move up to some hones you will have been shaving with a straight for at least 7 months. I consider this absolutely key to straight shaving, get the new guy shaving and liking it. This is not magic! Straight shaving is learned but the last thing a new guy needs to worry about is getting into stones, he is overwhelmed already.

I still use 0.50,0.25 diamond and Chromium pastes to finish my honing session. I only use about 6 laps on the Chromium because I don't want to completely kill the 0.25 paste edge. As I stated earlier I got a 16K Shapton (0.92 microns) to replace the 1.0 diamond paste. I spent the money gradually and picked what I wanted as my knowledge grew. I eventually got a Coticule and I really feel that I am pretty much done for a while. All the while I have been getting absolutely fantastic shaves because from the very beginning I have shaved with very sharp razors, I mean sharp!


Take Care,
Richard

Thanks for the responses.

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. What happens is that pretty soon you end with a razor that will not hold an edge very long at all, like 4 shaves instead of at least 10.

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You mean pasted strop then unpasted strop for 10 shaves then repeat and after a while you only get 4 shaves between pasted strops?

I'm having a hard time seeing what could be going on there, but if you do a couple passes on the pasted strop each time, then it doesn't matter if the edge can make it 'only 4 shaves'.

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Originally Posted by jimmyh

Thanks for the responses.



You mean pasted strop then unpasted strop for 10 shaves then repeat and after a while you only get 4 shaves between pasted strops?

I'm having a hard time seeing what could be going on there, but if you do a couple passes on the pasted strop each time, then it doesn't matter if the edge can make it 'only 4 shaves'.

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I'm sorry! I use a leather hanging strop before every shave, 70 laps. When you only get about 4 shaves between using the pasted strop, you have to drop back to the 8EE. I am talking about 8 or 10 laps on the 8K and 10 or less on each of the diamond steps. The diamond plate cuts pretty quickly. Eventually even taking it down to an 8k will not help much so you have to send it out and have the bevel reset, but that will be many months down the road, probably a year. If you use the 8k after about 10 or 15 shaves then longer than a year and would guess years. By the standards a lot of these guys have this is a very crude setup, but it works!, I have done it. This is a dirt cheap way to use a razor and still get very good quality edges.

If you are going to be straight shaving as a life style you will have to get and use some good hones. I bought a Coticule which will let you reset a bevel if it is not to far gone otherwise you have to go to a 1K stone,which I also bought. The point is that, in the beginning, stones that drop down to 4K or 1K are not needed by the beginner and will probably cause damage in the wrong hands.

My two cents.

A lot depends on technique. Watch carefully and follow your hand as you strop. Then follow the blade itself. How does the blade set on the strop before you start? Does your hand lift the blade slightly on edge as you finish a stroke or does it remain flat? Does the whole blade cross the leather with each stroke? Is each pass just like the last one? Do your strokes vary between each pass? Do you notice a negative difference in your razor when you rush the stropping? Do you give the strop too much give, is it too taut when you strop? Do you use quality leather? Is the leather supple or dried out?

Pastes on leather, in a way, turn a strop into a hone. Improper stropping can help create a concave in the blade and round out the tip on the razor with bad technique, add pastes to the strop and it quickens the damage.

IMHO,there is in no need of strop pastes, I do not know when abrasive pastes were invented, but if they were not needed 200 years ago, they are not needed today. The use of pastes may have been made for those who did not have quality hones, the paste served their purpose well and keep up a quality they were happy with. Heck, a lot of people use strops for their pocket knives and such, and they do not own a razor.

Not addressing and fixing ones consistent mistakes in stropping will lead to having to hone more often than would be needed.

I have not noticed a need to hone a blade often that was stropped properly. As we know, honing cuts the blade, too much or too often will shorten the life of a blade.

All this leads to the advice of having several blades in ones rotation. This will help preserve each razor.

Being methodical and observant will save a razor.

My Dutch 1910 barbers' manual recommends you sharpen French razors with knot free wood pasted with ceolite (e.g. pate Hamon) and strop them on leather. Hones were only used for damaged edges.

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Originally Posted by Junkyard

Pastes on leather, in a way, turn a strop into a hone. Improper stropping can help create a concave in the blade and round out the tip on the razor with bad technique, add pastes to the strop and it quickens the damage.

IMHO,there is in no need of strop pastes, I do not know when abrasive pastes were invented, but if they were not needed 200 years ago, they are not needed today. The use of pastes may have been made for those who did not have quality hones, the paste served their purpose well and keep up a quality they were happy with. Heck, a lot of people use strops for their pocket knives and such, and they do not own a razor.

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This is exactly the type response that we always get on SRP as I said "We" tend to be a "HONE is God" forum and the use of pastes tends to be looked down upon...See the blue section, we use a slightly condescending tone, like using pastes is somehow a bad thing... (no offense intended here Junkyard you were just proving my earlier point)

Although I do tend to agree with the thinking here, I am not quite as convinced as I once was about this line of thinking....

Just for reference the first pastes were used 200+ years ago, it was called ash... and is still rather effective, so is lamp black we just use other things now...

I just started a experimental run on a razor when this thread started ....

I personally think the use of pastes for honing at anything other than a very fine polishing stage is a relatively new phenomena. Industrial diamonds like the ones in our diamond paste did not exist in the heyday of the straight razor, in fact being able to get the very fine powders we use in a consistent grit would probably have been impossible. This method hasn't been explored and is looked down upon because it is a completely new area. I've seen the skepticism of the scary sharp method from both razor an woodworking guys, I still see it, even though the method works, and well. I don't think the skepticism here is because of class consciousness but more fear of the new. I mean seriously if some Victorian farmer couldn't afford a chunk of rock where was he going to get diamond dust suspended in fine oil to do the same job.

Kees...

Would you give more information about ceolite? In my searching, I suspect it is the same as zeolite, which is available from pet supply stores for use in aquariums or cat litter.

Zeolite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Zeolites are microporous, aluminosilicate minerals commonly used as commercial adsorbents... Some of the more common mineral zeolites are analcime, chabazite, clinoptilolite, heulandite, natrolite, phillipsite, and stilbite. An example mineral formula is: Na2Al2Si3O10-2H2O, the formula for natrolite.

Am I close? And, what is Pate Hamon... can't find that either.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

This is exactly the type response that we always get on SRP as I said "We" tend to be a "HONE is God" forum and the use of pastes tends to be looked down upon...

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I agree with that Glen. I was definitely one of those who had mixed feelings about paste. Not for others but for myself. Intellectually I knew that it is another abrasive just as a hone is a bound abrasive whether natural of synthetic.

Emotionally I think the fact that I tried to learn to hone razors and failed twenty five years ago made me feel that using paste was somehow a shortcut. I felt that if the old timers could get them with the hones alone that I too should be able to do so.

Now I've come to the conclusion that those old boys got them as sharp as could be gotten on the hones but not as sharp as can be gotten with paste. The sharpest razors I've gotten were finished with diamond paste. If I were honing for others I would definitely finish with the paste on balsa.

I'm beginning to do that for myself. I'm finding there is a learning curve with this as well. I still have to get the razor to a level of sharpness with the hones that I can improve with the pastes so it isn't "cheating" after all the way I see it now.

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Originally Posted by Junkyard

IMHO,there is in no need of strop pastes, I do not know when abrasive pastes were invented, but if they were not needed 200 years ago, they are not needed today.

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See also my post above. I cannot get my TI Silverwing shave-sharp without cromium oxide paste. I honed about 50 razors with good results using hones only but the TI is an exception. TI recommend their paddle strop for maintenance: one side pasted leather, the other side plain leather.

TI recently changed the steel they use. Maintenance recommendations are adapted to the needs of the tool to be maintained and vice versa. So that may explain why pastes may be a better choice this day and age for modern razors.

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

I agree completely, Glen. I never bought into the argument that a pasted edge needs more attention to keep it keen than a honed edge. I'm not saying that I don't believe that necessarily, my argument to that is that I don't see increased maintenance as a serious detraction. My pasted paddles are easily accessible. A few passes on them to refresh more often that a re-hone, I don't see the downside.

I'm experimenting a ton with pastes right now and intend on exploring it a bunch more. I'm still cautious on how I feel about pastes in general (other than chrome ox which for me is a proven ingredient in my honing process) but time will solidify my experiences with the pastes.

Chris L

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Chris,

Lemme know if, for the sake of science, you want a bunch of Picassos to annoint with your test pastes. They are a snap to make so long as I have the scrap materials.

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Originally Posted by Kees

See also my post above. I cannot get my TI Silverwing shave-sharp without cromium oxide paste. I honed about 50 razors with good results using hones only but the TI is an exception. TI recommend their paddle strop for maintenance: one side pasted leather, the other side plain leather.

TI recently changed the steel they use. Maintenance recommendations are adapted to the needs of the tool to be maintained and vice versa. So that may explain why pastes may be a better choice this day and age for modern razors.

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Interesting that you say that, Kees. I have a Super Gnome that I believe is made from the new TI steel. I've honed it to shaving sharp using stones then finishing on diamond and chrome ox for the higher grits. This razor has had numerous test shaves and the edge is still not to my liking. It seems to be a very hard steel. I continue to work with it.......

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Originally Posted by Bruce

Chris,

Lemme know if, for the sake of science, you want a bunch of Picassos to annoint with your test pastes. They are a snap to make so long as I have the scrap materials.

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Wow, this is a very kind gesture, Bruce. I will most likely take you up on it. I'll PM you when I receive my abrasives. Incidentally, the "tulip wood" paddle you made was impressively flat. I pencil marked the surface, took my granite surface plate and a sheet of 200+ grit regular sandpaper and the pencil marks were gone in just a handful of figure eights.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

Interesting that you say that, Kees. I have a Super Gnome that I believe is made from the new TI steel. I've honed it to shaving sharp using stones then finishing on diamond and chrome ox for the higher grits. This razor has had numerous test shaves and the edge is still not to my liking. It seems to be a very hard steel. I continue to work with it.......

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According to the same manual you are supposed to apply some pressure on the strop. It is mentioned specifically, as opposed to honing with a stone.

Something that I just posted else where too...

Half of you believe that pastes Round/Convex the bevel the other half swear that pastes create a weak edge that fails quickly.... This is counter intuitive guys unless the edge is this nano sized piece of foil steel at the end of the round bevel?????

Here is a post where mparker762 having experimented with pastes extensively on various surfaces found that paste by itself will not degrade the edge if it is applied and used properly.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Here is a post where mparker762 having experimented with pastes extensively on various surfaces found that paste by itself will not degrade the edge if it is applied and used properly.

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Bingo there is the catch phrase,,,That was the one we are looking for, the worst thing is a pasted strop in the wrong hands.....

"need" is a bad word that needlessly confuses things more often than not. You also don't "need" hones if you have the appropriate pastes- they both work.

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I have not noticed a need to hone a blade often that was stropped properly. As we know, honing cuts the blade, too much or too often will shorten the life of a blade.

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Well, not at first. What I'm suggesting is that if you use pasted balsa, for example, instead of bare leather every day, you shouldn't have to go to the hone for a real long time, and you'll always have 'fresh' edges.

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I personally think the use of pastes for honing at anything other than a very fine polishing stage is a relatively new phenomena.

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I'm not talking about replacing coarse hones with coarse pastes, just more frequent touch ups so that you don't have to go so coarse.

I maintain my knives with a pasted strop, and only have to go back to stones if I get so much use in one session that it dulls them past what a strop can quickly fix.

Sounds to me like you are going with the old saying of "It is much easier to keep an edge sharp, then to sharpen an edge"....

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

the worst thing is a pasted strop in the wrong hands.....

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Well said. I can't recall where exactly I read some vintage razor instruction, maybe nassrasur, but there was mention that pastes (which of course were used "back in the day") were recommended only for experienced barbers to use whereas hones were for everyone, but most importantly for inexperienced barbers.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by jimmyh

Well, not at first. What I'm suggesting is that if you use pasted balsa, for example, instead of bare leather every day, you shouldn't have to go to the hone for a real long time, and you'll always have 'fresh' edges.

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I would be wary of it being too much of a good thing. Untreated linen/leather will maintain an edge while a daily dose of paste might lead to overhoning IMO.

I could see doing linen & leather and then when the edge began to feel a bit 'off' going to paste to refresh but not daily ... again... IMO. Whatever works for you is fine as long as it works. :)

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

Well said. I can't recall where exactly I read some vintage razor instruction, maybe nassrasur, but there was mention that pastes (which of course were used "back in the day") were recommended only for experienced barbers to use whereas hones were for everyone, but most importantly for inexperienced barbers.
Chris L

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Part of the reason being that barbers were used to use hones in those days and using pasted strops was an entirely new technique. If you are experienced it is easier to learn a new technique.

I was thinking of just reducing the number of strokes so you don't over hone. Maybe just 2 passes per side or something.

Though maybe you really do want to do a bunch of passes on smooth leather and just touch up less than daily but still fairly frequently.

I shave much less often than every day (probably a couple dozen times this past year) so I don't have to worry so much about overhoning, and have to worry more about corrosion between shaves.

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Originally Posted by jimmyh

I was thinking of just reducing the number of strokes so you don't over hone. Maybe just 2 passes per side or something.

Though maybe you really do want to do a bunch of passes on smooth leather and just touch up less than daily but still fairly frequently.

I shave much less often than every day (probably a couple dozen times this past year) so I don't have to worry so much about overhoning, and have to worry more about corrosion between shaves.

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Yes well that makes all the difference since you are not shaving with the straight that often and therefore not getting on the paste on a daily basis. The only other thing I would take into consideration is the leather aligning the edge. It seems to me that the fine and micro thin end of the bevel benefits from the strokes on the leather.

I used to go linen/leather and than read in the 1961 Barber Manual excerpt on honing their stressing the point of stropping on leather only after the hones. I was somewhat resistant to changing my routine but I have and it seems to be bringing just as good a result.

Some of this stuff is so close in the results that it is hard for me to know if one way is better than another as the differences can be so subtle.

JimmyHAD, would you explain more fully your statement above...

"stropping on leather only after the hones."

Do you mean by that only that you are skipping the linen?

After honing I strop on linen as well as it helps to get the edge really dry.

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Originally Posted by LarryAndro

JimmyHAD, would you explain more fully your statement above...

"stropping on leather only after the hones."

Do you mean by that only that you are skipping the linen?

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Yes, in the barber manual excerpt they specifically instruct to strop on leather only after the hones. They go on to say that once you've shaved with the razor you should strop on the linen first before the leather for your future shaves until you return to the hones.

I've brought this up in a thread to try and find out what other experienced members think and it is one of those 'subtle differences' things apparently. IOW, no definitive answer AFAIK.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Yes, in the barber manual excerpt they specifically instruct to strop on leather only after the hones. They go on to say that once you've shaved with the razor you should strop on the linen first before the leather for your future shaves until you return to the hones.

I've brought this up in a thread to try and find out what other experienced members think and it is one of those 'subtle differences' things apparently. IOW, no definitive answer AFAIK.

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I had read and adhered to that barber manual rule as well. I guess I still adhere to it since the LAST thing I use, chrome ox, I follow with leather only. However, just prior to chrome ox, when I'm using 1 mic then .5 mic diamond sprays, I strop on a homemade plain hard felt then denim bench strop about 10 passes on each. Unless I'm imagining it, such a practice seems to provide a smoother final edge. Still in the experimentation stage with it though.

Chris L

This barrage of information is making me vertiginous. I think at last count we had 37 materials which could be used (lemme see, permutations of 37 things used 2 at a time is...) in a bunch of ways.

And I don't think we got to either newsprint or denim yet.

Uff da, the room she's all a swirl. ";"

I used to be against pastes on the daily strop though I've since changed my mind. If the linen is abrasive (as I believe it to be) then the question of pasting the daily strop really comes down to "how abrasive do I want it to be" not "do I want it to be abrasive at all". Regular use of linen will round the edge the same as pastes, only much slower because it's not as abrasive. And linen can sharpen an edge the same as pastes only much slower because it's not as abrasive - slow enough that it's not something you really want to do, but nonetheless it's doable. I once brought a dull Wostenholm to shaving sharpness with roughly 1400 laps on an unpasted linen strop.

Traditional linen seems to be fairly abrasive as fabric goes, and seems to do a good job of maintaining the edge and can even be used as a touch-up hone if the thought of doing a hundred laps or so doesn't bother you. Cotton on the other hand is much slower but seems to produce a somewhat sharper edge, however it is slow enough that stropping can become laborious, so a mild polish can speed it up so that it is more comparable to traditional linen or even slightly faster. Since genuine linen of sufficient quality for razors seems to be a disappearing commodity this is a worthwhile technique. My favorite abrasive for cotton strops is the Harbor Freight white rouge stick (~$4 for a lifetime 4"x1" crayon). I lay it across the strop and rub it back and forth one time and it's good for about a week of use (it's not sticky so it seems to fall off the fabric after a few uses). I don't know if the other white rouges sold in other hardware stores are equivalent or not.