My first bevel setting - parts not making contact with hone

Hello,

I am new to straight razor shaving, started a few weeks ago.
I've watched some videos on subject and read wiki and forum posts to prepare myself :)
So far I have already accomplished a few sr shaves without any major problems, each shave is better than previous with smooth feeling around the face + a little red irritation on neck.
One of my 3 razors is not sharp enough (fails all available tests) so I decided to hone it.
To make long story short, I finally figured out that any hones with grit above 1K will not change anything as this one really needed some serious bevel setting before going into any polishing stages.
So I took my not so sharp and stubborn Dovo inox/stainless blade to 1K hone and I began my first honing practice. The hone I am using is Naniwa model MS19 (Micron Deluxe) grit 1000 with a stand (link)which I bought in some sushi shop. It is different from Super Stone (new ceramics) Naniwa 1K commonly known on this forum, but I guess the difference is not substantial.
I lapped the hone and started with a few dozen of strokes, no change in sharpness. One hour of honing, two hours - getting better in some parts of the blade, lacking any sharpness in other. I decided to put a marker on spine and bevel to see what is wrong with this blade. The result I got after a few strokes with marker on surprised me.
Below I attach a picture which shows in red color parts of the balde which are not making contact with the hone. In case it is not shown let me describe the situation:
One side of the blade is almost perfect with only a short part of tip not making contact. On spine the part of the same length is not making contact (symmetrical to the edge part).
It is the second side of the blade which is really a big trouble maker. There, only middle part of the edge is making contact, with quite long parts of heel and tip not making contact. On the spine the parts which does not make contact are not the exact symmetrical projections of the edge parts. They extend to the very end of tip / heel and are not as long as the trouble edge parts.
It is my third day of honing, so far I did about 12 hours of honing on 1K. The middle part is quite sharp (shaves some hair in mid-air). One side of the blade is almost perfect, with the short tip area being the only trouble maker.
It may be my imagination but on the second side of the blade (dark, bad side:rolleyes:) I think a spine begins to even out because the marker is vanishing, but the progress is so slow that I wonder if it can be done in reasonable time. The edge part not making contact is still not even touched! :rant:

Shall I continue doing X strokes for x hours until it all evens out (spine+edge will finally make contact)? :confused:
Should I hone the trouble side more or is it still better to do even number of strokes on each side in this specific case?

Since it's my first honing, I'd like to avoid advanced techs like rolling X as this will unnecessery complicate the issue and disrupt muscle memory of regular strokes which I suspect will not serve me well for start of my honing adventure :medvl:

Thank you for reading my post and any advice you can provide,
Magus

Sounds like your blade is warped. Maybe this isn't the best blade to learn to hone with. If you use the top edge of the hone and not lay it flat on the hone you may get the complete edge to take an edge. When doing this tip the tow up a little and slide the blade off the side of the hone in an x pattern. Be sure you hone is properly beveled and that you are honing on the top edge of the bevel and not the bevel itself.

Good luck.

For Reference:
If after 100 laps on a 1k stone you are not seeing a bevel and an edge form there is a problem... STOP!!! you are just wasting steel form that point on...
You have to figure out where the problem lies....

One single layer of electrical tape would have fixed this "problem"...

Now that you have put 12 full hours plus and 100 years of wear on the razor who knows...

Obviously you have a warp, honing around a warp is rather easy once you realize it is there, the marker test proved it... Now you have a warp the has been worn farther into the spine and the edge, so basically you have to pop yer wheels outta the ruts and drive along the top....

I hate to diagnose razors without them being in my hands but I would suggest 3 layers of tape and some heel forward strokes down the hone maybe some circles to even it all up once you can feel an edge, pull two layers of tape and sharpen the razor....
You could also use a rolling X and hone around the warp but from your first post I think you might have dug yourself a hole the you might not get out of easily...

Good luck..

ps: my advice above is if you want a nice even small bevel you can grind away and get the razor shaving sooner or later....

Welcome to SRP. Checkout this tutorial in the SRP Wiki here. It is from the 1961 barber manual excerpt and illustrates and describes honing with the x stroke to avoid a frown. From your illustrations it appears that you will be putting a frown in that razor if you keep at it. Read the tutorial and follow the method and you may be able to correct what you've already done.

Alternatively you might send it out to a forum member for professional honing. Don't worry about corrupting your muscle memory by using a stroke other than dead flat. You have to use the stroke that works or you'll not only get nowhere but you'll make matters worse.

How much damage you may have done would depend on how much pressure you've been using and how much metal you've already taken off. One layer of tape on the spine might be a good idea until you feel confident in your honing skills. :gl:

I just re-read yer post, I think we are all assuming that the hone you are using is FLAT by the way....

+1 On Jimmy and Glenn both. As Glenn has pointed out, and you might have already done this, make sure your stone is flat. Jimmy has recommended that you tape the spine. Do this, no matter what at this point. I would personally do the following with this razor. After taping the spine I would remark the edge. After it dries, take one stroke up and one stroke back on the stone. Make sure this is very slow, maybe 1 to 2 seconds. Look at the marking, it will show you exactly what you need to know. So know you have some areas that that stroke didn't remove the mark, that means you have to find the x or rolling-x stroke that will. Again, very slowly, do one of these and see if more of the mark was removed. If it was, continue doing this, again verry slowly, until the mark is completely gone. This is the stroke you will need to produce the bevel you are looking for. Next dry and remark the blade. Do one stroke up and one back and look at the blade. You should have, at this point, all of the marker removed from the edge. If not, keep figuring it out until you can do this last test. Once you can do that you can start to set the bevel. Again, Very Very Slowly. It should not take more than 20 or 30 laps to set the bevel. If you aren't close by that time, there is something really wrong.
The key to this part is the speed. It doesn't matter how fast you go, you only have 8" of stone to work with. No matter how fast you move the blade over the stone, you will still remove the same amount of metal. Starting out slowly, while you are learning, will allow you to actually watch what is going on and develop better muscle memory.
Jimmy is correct though in recommending at this point that you stop what you are doing and get this Inox to a honester before you totally trash your investment. Here is a link to the classified section.

Get yourself a beater from ebay and practice on that until you feel comfortable with the process and then you can move up to your Inox without trepidation.

Hope this helps,

Ray

:D Thank you guys for insightful answers to my honing problem.
This forum rocks!
I didn't expect so many answers in such a short time! :)

One thing is certain - as I understand from your answers I've done more than enough strokes on this problematic razor on 1K hone and I should stop doing it before killing the spine :gaah: coz it will not "even out" if I keep doing it with no mods to my honing method.

Therefore I am putting some layers of black electric tape around the spine, I guess I'll start with 3 pieces of that stuff following Glen's advice, then I'll degrade to 1 layer if I can feel the new formed edge and try to sharpen it keeping 1 layer on spine. All the time frequent marker tests in between strokes of course :) It should become clear by that time wheter to use x stroke or rolling x stroke with the leading heel - will proceed with a gentle rolling if warp proves too strong to attain an edge with 1 layer of tape on. :w
Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.

I'll update with fresh results.
Thank you,
Magus

PS. I'm already hunting for some cheap beater (like Wapienica) on the auctions to improve my honing technique :)

Sounds like you're on the right track now. I put the marker on and see what type of stroke I need to use to make contact with the hone for the length of the blade and then I immediately wipe the marker off.

Use the 3 layers of tape until you can pass the TNT. Once passed go to one layer and repeat until you can pass the TNT again. From that point don't use the TNT anymore. Rely on the TPT. You can educate your thumb pad by using a new DE blade if you have one to be able to tell the 'sticky' feeling that you are looking for.

Ok, so far I finally arrived at the point of using 1 layer of tape. Even 3 layers of tape with normal X stroke couldn't accomplish the bevel on the whole length. However the length of bevel which I produced with 3 layers was longer than before :) But seeing that after about 30 strokes it was not increasing in size, I switched to slight rolling x technique (especially pronounced on that warped side) and I tell you that was a good move! Doing so the bevel began forming on the whole size of the blade, even the most distant parts were touched by the stroke and the marker on the new (smaller) bevel finally disapeared after a few strokes. Again, with marker I repeat the stroke until it felt like quite sharp on all points of the blade (TNT went smooth imho). Then I switched to 1 layer. This time I took me longer to make the marker disappear, obviously angle was more acute with 1 layer so at first the steel was being removed from slightly above the very edge and then, step by step the new bevel formed itself until all marker was gone. Again, I repeated the above until the marker disppeared a few times. Now I am working to make it sharp at this 1K level :o
Maybe it's too early to go into 4K.
Well, it's passing TNT on the whole length, HHT fail, trying TPT.... DE which I used about a week ago is gliding across my thumble pad almost without doing any nicks (already dull I guess) :D therefore I'll check with fresh one to feel the difference. BUT with the blade I am honing I am feeling a slight sinking into the skin when I position the blade under angle slightly more acute then normal perpendicular. If I do mid-air shaving test on the arm or leg (with dry hair, quite dense and thick), then one slow stroke on the whole length of the limb produces a few chopped off pieces of hair at most.

Should I give it a few more dozen of strokes and expect more sharpness at this stage,
or do many strokes, enough until it grabs almost all hair in mid-air
or is it safe to move to 4K now? :)

Magus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magus

PS. I'm already hunting for some cheap beater (like Wapienica) on the auctions to improve my honing technique :)

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That's a really good idea. When I started out honing, somebody on this site actually shipped me a Double Arrow razor for free to use for practice. I already shipped it off to someone else who was learning how to hone, but maybe somebody else on the side might help out ...????

-Happing honing

Chief

Magus,
Congradulations, you are finally on the right tract. You have reached a point, though, where there are differing opinions on what to do now. I will tell you what I do, and then maybe some others can chime in and give you some other recommendations.
When I am setting the bevel there are two processes that are actually going on. The first if the forming of the bevel itself. I try to make sure the bevel is as close to the same on both sides of the blade and will compensate in the number of laps per side to try and equal this out. The second process is, of course, the forming of the edge. These are two separate things and develop on their own. We can produce a perfect bevel on both sides, but have a wide edge that won't cut anything. Or we could produce a nice edge that cuts and have a lopsided bevel. So I pay attention to both of these. The test that I use while setting the bevel is also the TNT. When you wet your thumb nail and slowly run the edge of the blade across it, it should want to dig in and you should feel no bumps. I then very lightly, and very slowly continue to hone, and every 5 full strokes test and see if I can cut arm hair along the whole blade. If I do, then it is time to move on. From here out DO NOT do the TNT again. It will ruin your work.
You are now ready to start on either a pyramid or progressive lapping on the higher grit stones. You also need to be very honest with yourself here. If for any reason you feel the edge of your blade dig in on any of your strokes, you will need to step back one stone and start over again.

So far, it seems like you have made it past the most frustrating part. The rest will come easier now.

Good Luck

Ray

I was just thinking that maybe you might be interested in a little instruction on the next phase of this honing process. Please understand that this is just my personal way of doing this, and I am sure some others will add their method/s for you to consider. So here goes.

Now that you have the perfect bevel set with a relatively sharp edge, it is time to move on. I assume you will be using the typical 4/8k combination of something. So let's consider the edge you have now. It is capable of popping hairs along it's length but what kind of edge do we have. Well, I wouldn't want to shave with it because it would be awful rough, but why. The edge you have created in the bevel stage is alot like a saw blade with sharpened points. It cuts the hair because these points bite into the kerotin surrounding the hair and then easily cuts it off. What we need to do is refine those points and make the edge keener and smoother.

So how do we do that. We are going to make a series of passes on the next finer stones using one of two methods. The pyramid method or the progressive method. Some use one or the other and some use both. Either one works, and they both arrive at the same destination. It is strictly a matter of taste. I will however state that Lynn uses and recommends the pyramid process, because it is a proven method that works all the time.

The pyramid method uses two stones. Usually the 4k and 8k stones are used back and forth in the following order. The first number will be the laps on the 4k and the second will be the laps on the 8k.

Aggressive lapping:

15/15
10/10
5/5
3/3
1/3
1/5

Less Aggressive:

1/3
1/5
5/5
3/3
1/3
1/5

The combinations can be more or less. It's relly up to you. When you are done with the pyramid, do the TPT. Wet the thumb pad, or finger pad, and draw the blade across it with light pressure. The blade should feel like it is S M O O T H L Y digging in along the whole blade. If it is not, go back and do another pyramid until it does. When it does, you should be able to put the spine of the blade on your arm and tip the edge up about 1/4" and stroke the hair. If the hair pops off from all points on the blade, it is time to move on. If it doesn't go back to the pyramid again and re-test.

The progressive method is a little different and, I think, requires a little more experience to use. In this method you will go from the bevel setting directly to the 4k stone. Start lapping on the 4k stone until you successfully pass the TPT and can still pop hairs, at their base, along the whole length of the blade. Then you move to the 8k. Hone on this stone and about every 10 to 20 strokes test the edge. You don't need to do the TPT, but instead, try shaving some arm or leg hair. It shouldn't pop, but should just fall over. At that point you are ready to do the final finish.

Just as an aside, it is generally thought by most honesters here on the forum, that the shave test is the only test to use to tell if the razor is shave ready. I have to agree with this 100%. But I would also like to say that if your razor doesn't pass any one of the preliminary test leading up to the shave, and the shave seems just fine, Just think what it would feel like if it had passed all the tests. Don't cheat yourself out of the best shave you might experience. When I hone a razor, especially for someone else, I can guarantee that all the boxes are checked as passed for each test, TPT, TNT, HHT and Shave. I want to make sure nothing is taken for granted.

Good luck and keep at it.

Ray

Recently, I decided to put the honing of the problematic warped Dovo on hold, till I get better at honing in general and specifically at rollingX stroke.
In the meanwhile, I started my honing practice on some cheap Wapienica razors which I hunted for some time :) and finally won on auctions. I happen to get 3 of them, all NOS. One of them is from 1992 with SFK stamp (best quality, no visible faults) and two other are slightly larger ones but without any stamp: one from 1996 (with slightly loose working scales) and the last one from 1998 (with a small chip on the edge seen under the microscope - I'm almost done removing the chip but at 1K it's taking quite much time - spine is taped of course...) I guess the quality control wasn't manufacturer's best side but hey, what can I espect for 8$ each? :D
Right out of the box they were already covered with some funny smelling & thick engine-like grease! :roflmao