can't be sharp enough right?

Hi guys!

Very frustrated and not sure where to pay attention to right now.

I sent my ebay special off to be honed, got it back last week and tried my first shave after stropping it, didn't get very far as it felt more like it was pulling the hair out rather than cutting it so strokes were very very short as i was never sure if the pain was hair coming out or face being cut into, needless to say i gave up.

found some time to have another go today, stropped it somewhere between 40-60 passes, did feel a little better but not much.

where am i going wrong?

:confused:

There's a few things that could be wrong here, but I think that the issue here is more likely to be your beard prep than the razor. I'm assuming you read the do-not-buy list in the wiki to ensure it was a good brand (what brand is it, by the way?), and sent it to a reputable member out of the SRP classifieds to be honed, so it should be fine in regards to sharpness. That said though, if you stropped it upon receiving it back from the honemeister, you may well have rolled the edge and blunted it - you shouldn't need to touch it before shaving after getting it honed, it should be possible to take it straight out of the box and shave with it without issue.More infor m

Prep-wise, what do you do pre-shave to soften and prepare your beard? What shave soap do you use? How heavy is your beard? All these things can easily affect the quality of your shave. Take a long hot shower to soften your beard, massage some hair conditioner into it pre-shave if you want to make sure it's soft enough (just don't forget to rinse it off pre-lather!). Make sure you're using a decent soap with a good cushion and slick, to help prevent pulling. Finally, being new, make sure your angles and pressure are good. Read the wiki for advice on areas to shave for your first shave and angles, and keep a light touch. If you follow these tips you should get a much better shave.

More info may be able to help us (soap brand, beard prep, razor brand etc). Don't give up just yet, keep at it, the shave is more than worth it. Good luck.

Cheers,
Tom

Usually when you send a blade out for honing it comes back shave ready, no need to strop. It's possible you may have rolled the edge stropping, dulling it a bit, if you don't have much experience stropping. I would communicate with whoever you had hone the blade and see if they stropped it. Describe your beard prep for us, that could also be a problem. It's also possible your angles are wrong and you aren't stretching the skin properly. If you haven't it would be good to read the First Straight Razor Shave.

First straight razor shave - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Don't get discouraged, there's a bit of a learning curve but you'll get lots of help here. :)

Other that beard prep and the reputation of whoever owned your blade, I'm not sure what else it could be. Who are you using to hone your ebay specials?

I received a few blades sold as shave ready, but none of them even came close to the work that Max did on a third razor I got.

thanks for the quick replies guys!

the razor is a 100 year old joseph allen & sons, sheffield steel, 6/8 inch hollow ground and i sent it to a guy from the forum recommended to me that is here in the UK.

for lather i'm using an edwin jagger cream.

i shave after showering, then use hot water on my face before applying lather.

so maybe i should look at my stropping technique? have hardly done much so probable that it could be this letting me down? i've watched vids and read up on it but that only goes so far, i keep the strop tight and only apply as much pressure as i need to keep the blade flat though.

To check if the blade is sharp enough, see if it will shave arm hair when held about 1/4 inch above the skin-- you should hear little "pinging" sounds and see the buggers fall down. If the blade does that, then it is probably your technique or prep. If not, it was either not honed very well or you rolled the edge when you stropped it.

Note on stropping, it is ok to use a little pressure, but you must keep the strop tight and *never* lift the spine... which is what rolls the edge.

If you send it to be rehoned, when you get it back don't strop on your first shave-- that way you'll know if it was you...

-Chief

Hmm... it sounds like you are doing everything right to me.

I guess we will have to turn to more experienced members to uncover the issue.

The blade doesn't sound like it was honed enough. Also, after honing on stone, sometimes the edge feels a bit rough shaving, although sharp enough to give a presentable shave. I recommend giving 10 passes on a pasted strop to smooth out any tiny sharp rough edges still hanging on the blade. My shaves after the 10 passes were smoother and better.

This along with the blade not being honed enough could be the situation you are facing.

Good Luck!

Pabster

Based on what you've just said, I would take a strong look at your technique. Have you read through the document I posted a link to? Next time you shave, really watch your angles. Take short strokes, using a light hand, and make sure you're stretching the skin properly. The document I cited has good information on all these techniques.

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Originally Posted by razormonkey

thanks for the quick replies guys!

the razor is a 100 year old joseph allen & sons, sheffield steel, 6/8 inch hollow ground and i sent it to a guy from the forum recommended to me that is here in the UK.

for lather i'm using an edwin jagger cream.

i shave after showering, then use hot water on my face before applying lather.

so maybe i should look at my stropping technique? have hardly done much so probable that it could be this letting me down? i've watched vids and read up on it but that only goes so far, i keep the strop tight and only apply as much pressure as i need to keep the blade flat though.

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Why don't you contact the person that honed it and ask him what he/she recommends.

good advice here. i notice an uncomfortable pulling when my beard isnt prepped. as already stated good stropping, pulling and contorting of face and good lather......... have you tried putting your strop on the edge of a table? no sag there and so long as you roll your straight on its spine it wont round either.

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Originally Posted by razormonkey

Hi guys!

Very frustrated and not sure where to pay attention to right now.

I sent my ebay special off to be honed, got it back last week and tried my first shave after stropping it, didn't get very far as

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Most likely overhoned blade

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it felt more like it was pulling the hair out rather than cutting it so strokes were very very short as i was never sure if the pain was hair coming out or face being cut into, needless to say i gave up.

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never do this

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found some time to have another go today, stropped it somewhere between 40-60 passes, did feel a little better but not much.

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Need to be rehoned

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where am i going wrong?

:confused:

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all above i said because you do have a good blade.It is not crappy pakistany or some cheap blade.
Now i think your blade honed someone which is very good honer(takes responsibility) .why i think so . Not easy to overhone the blade.takes time.
That person tried make perfect work that is why it happen.
Try to contact person and resolve the issue. SRP is a nice community i am sure you will get help. if you still have problem pm me.GL.

thanks guys!

i certainly can't cut hairs from arm by holding it 1/4 inch off my skin, it just combs them, sounds like the blade isn't sharp enough after all, maybe i will focus my attention on my stropping and see how that goes, hope i didn't roll the edge before even starting, :o failing that i'll drop my honer an email, but he did come highly recommended, and the razor was completely unusable before he got his hands on it, came back looking good.

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Originally Posted by razormonkey

thanks guys!

i certainly can't cut hairs from arm by holding it 1/4 inch off my skin, it just combs them, sounds like the blade isn't sharp enough after all, maybe i will focus my attention on my stropping and see how that goes, hope i didn't roll the edge before even starting, :o failing that i'll drop my honer an email, but he did come highly recommended, and the razor was completely unusable before he got his hands on it, came back looking good.

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arm hair is different will not give fair assessment about sharpness of blade.
do this.
strop only using weight of the blade.
if your blade gets very sharp and cuts in first pass then dulls that blade is overhoned.

but surely if it won't cut my arm hair, which is quite fine it will never be sharp enough to cut my facial hair which is nowhere near as fine, so the fact that it can't cut that hair must mean it's not sharp enough?

how can a blad be over honed?

if it is, how can it be corrected?

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Originally Posted by razormonkey

but surely if it won't cut my arm hair, which is quite fine it will never be sharp enough to cut my facial hair which is nowhere near as fine, so the fact that it can't cut that hair must mean it's not sharp enough?

how can a blad be over honed?

if it is, how can it be corrected?

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its actually easier to pass HHT with a coarse hair....

Seriously, contact the vendor that honed for you. If it is indeed overhoned, it needs a trip back to the hones.

Try cutting the arm hair with the blade on the skin. If it won't do that it certainly won't shave facial hair. Since it was professionally honed I would bet it isn't overhoned. You may have rolled the edge with incorrect stropping or it may be inadequate skin stretching, incorrect blade angle ? It is hard to diagnose without seeing and feeling the edge.

hmm, well it doesn't cut arm hair with contact on the skin either too well.

so far i have only tried the sides of my face so am quite confident i'm getting my angle of 30degrees right.

a video of jockeys said that the blade should feel sticky to touch as it bites into the skin, this isn't happening either.

i'll have a look at some more stropping vids and info and have another go stropping before next shave.

do all you guys use a pasted canvas strop? i have a strop with both leather and canvas but have bypassed the canvas so far.

The impression I have from the experiments of mparker762 is that the canvas or linen is sharpening to some extent while the leather is polishing. Try 50 or 60 on the canvas followed by another 50 on leather and try the arm hair again and see if there is any improvement. If not send the razor back to be honed again and don't strop before you shave when you get it back. That will help you know if the problem is technique or incorrect stropping. Just IMO.

We often tell straight users that they can roll a cutting edge by incorrect stropping. This is true. I think I'm going to perform some experiments, purposefully rolling an edge, and seeing what it takes to recover the edge.

Anyone else purposefully rolled an edge while stropping to see the effect, and to determine best way to recover?

This is one of the most common type messages on SRP. The thought I had is that maybe we aren't helping enough when this happens in giving specific instructions in edge recovery other than "send it back for rehoning."

I am speaking generally here. For example, JimmyHAD's latest post is about recovering the edge, and is a good post.

hi guys!

couldn't resist trying, have stropped the blade on leather another 50 times, making sure i kept the blad spine on the strop, turns out i was doing it (albiet carefully the other way, lifting the blade off and turning it opposite to how it turns when always left in contact) so seems likely i may have rolled the blade inadvertently.

anyway, seems i can now cut arm hair without touching skin, will try a few more passes on canvas now and back to leather and see what i end up with.

thanks so much for your help! will let you know how i get on.

:bow

All sound advice. Just a few random thoughts:

• More often than not, when a beginner thinks the blade is at fault, it isn't.

• The HHT can work, but only if you know what exactly you're looking for, and even then, there are known limitations.

• When a beginner thinks he's not applying any pressure, it's usually too much. Likewise, when pressure is needed, it is usually either too little or too much.

Shaving with a straight razor is a learnt skill. I think I could get a passable shave out of a razor that is sub par, because I know the techique, got the angles and skin stretching right, and use the best shaving paraphernalia in the market (for me, only).

What I would recommend is to send the razor off to a pro again (can be back in three days within Europe), just to be on the safe side. Use the time in between to read the beginner's guide (see my sig), paying as much attention as possible to the articles on preparation and stropping. We've spent a lot of time ammassing that kind of knowledge from the forums, and condensing it into a few articles that should by now really cover all the basics.

Good luck, and keep us updated on your progress.

Regards,
Robin

Sounds like you might be on the right track. Take a look at the barber manual section on stropping. It's helped a lot of people.

File:Help Files Permanent Archive Barbering Textbooks 1961 Barbering Text

Light pressure when stropping, as mentioned. And, for the first few times, you might consider laying the strop on the edge of a table to make sure you it isn't sagging too much.

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Originally Posted by keenedge

Sounds like you might be on the right track. Take a look at the barber manual section on stropping. It's helped a lot of people.

File:Help Files Permanent Archive Barbering Textbooks 1961 Barbering Text

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The manual in the link above, provided by keenedge, suggests practicing flipping the razor between the tips of the thumb and forefinger without doing the stroke. I think this is a great idea. It points out that holding the tang between the tips of the thumb and forefinger without bending the wrist allows for a better feel for a light touch that is best in stropping a razor.

so much great advice!

Thanks again guys!

will go for another shave after more correct stropping tomorrow and let you know how i get on.

+1 for the barber's manual.

As a new straight razor shaver, I was having problems with keeping a good edge. It was recommended that I read the section on honing and stropping in the barber's manual.

After reading the manual, I discovered my grip on the razor during stropping was wrong and appears to have been the main cause of my problems.

I highly recommend reading the barber's manual. It was a great help to me.

Good luck

just had another attempt!

did 50 passes on canvas first followed by 50 on leather, and paid attention to technique resisting the temptation to go faster as felt comfortable with it and keeping the spine in contact at ALL times.

I'm still not getting the bite into the ball of the thumb mind but certainly sharper, now have my first small nick to prove it ;-)

the shave was noticeably better this time, much less pulling and even managed to shave my neck too this time, only leaves my goatee area which i'll try once i've had a few more successful shaves :)

so next question is: can you over strop? based on the improvement i got after this mornings stropping i'm thinking it needs quite a bit more to get it to full shave readiness but i don't want to make matters worse now by doing too much if thats possible?

thx again guys, feeling much happier today, what a difference day makes! (there's a song in there somewhere)

No, you cannot overstrop. You can, however, dull an edge quickly and efficiently by using inappropriate sharpness tests. The TPT is one such test.

Please have the razor professionally honed.

it was professionally honed by a guy from the forum so i think i dulled the edge some how when i first stropped it, kinda annoying but i can't expect to get it all right first time, as much as i try!

as i said, it was a BIG improvement today over yesterday and i'll strop it a load more tomorrow and see if that helps improve it again, the sharpness tests you posted are great, thanks for that, certainly not sharp enough for the HHT though so guess i've got some way to go before i'm truly shave ready.

i do have a norton combo stone 4000/8000 which i could (sharp intake of breath from everyone :)) give it a quick go on the 8000 using the new info i have at my disposal.

Dont worry about HHT. HHT is a test used when honing and only after you have honed enough razors to "calibrate" the test.

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Originally Posted by razormonkey

as i said, it was a BIG improvement today over yesterday and i'll strop it a load more tomorrow and see if that helps improve it again, the sharpness tests you posted are great, thanks for that, certainly not sharp enough for the HHT though so guess i've got some way to go before i'm truly shave ready.

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I would avoid this. From what I can tell you are novice to Straights. It is very hard to hone a razor when you dont have a good baseline to go off or a good understanding of shave ready.

I would not bother with honing until you have mastered stropping and shaving. And then i would purchase a second straight, that way you have a "Known Good" to compare too.

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i do have a norton combo stone 4000/8000 which i could (sharp intake of breath from everyone :)) give it a quick go on the 8000 using the new info i have at my disposal.

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The good thing is at least you know you're not rolling the edge since as you say, you have improved the edge with stropping :).

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

You can, however, dull an edge quickly and efficiently by using inappropriate sharpness tests. The TPT is one such test.

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Gotta disagree with this one.

Testing with the thumb pad after stropping is very appropriate. It is taught as a way to judge stropping progress in every barber manual I've read, and has never dulled one of my blades.