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The wiki says that the purpose of Canvas/Linen is to heat up the blade prior to stropping on the leather. Is this true or is there some debate about that?
I want to buy a strop soon, and I'm trying to decide if my first should be The Filly or this one that has a canvas:
Horsehide Leather Strop
Is a canvas important for keeping your edge sharp?
Well, That's what they say, Linen or Cotton, Canvas, any kind of cloth material will heat up the edge on the blade, and it is recommended prior to hitting the leather. With most of us, it's personal preference. Some use Linen, Some the Cotton/Canvas type stuff. Honing compound can also be applied to different mediums.
SRD has a Hard Pressed Wool Felt strop too which is excellent for the Diamond Sprays.
For a beginner, either one you choose is fine. I'd go with the one that has the cotton/canvas strop with it. Ken's products are excellent, I have one of his Paladin's.
I think the Fily doesn't come with a cotton or canvas side. Chances are, when you start, you may nick or cut your strop. So, either choice would be good for a beginner....
A normal stropping would be like, 25 lapps back and forth on the canvas, and 50 on the leather..Something like that....
Welcome to SRP....Rich
That article is marked as a stub for a good reason. I encourage all knowledgeable senior members to enhance it: Razor Strops - Straight Razor Place Wiki
Though I use linen before leather every time I strop I've always been a sceptical as to this theory and so will be interested in the replies. I strop on linen, lather and then strop on leather so don't receive such benefit anyway but, when I've stropped on one immediately after the other, I've not noticed a difference in the usual quality of the edge. I think that the linen does perform a purpose, ie in giving a slightly more abrasive polish prior to the finer one of the leather. All totally subjective I'm afraid. My edges do seem to keep their sharpness longer with regular linen use and certainly seem smoother if I go a hundred or so laps immediately after honing.
Don't know if anyone's ever played with thermometers on the blade after linen/canvas though so I could be wrong.
That's the theory, but I've always been skeptical. (a) I don't think the linen is capable of putting much heat into the edge (b) any heat will be lost shortly after stropping on the leather unless the leather is also capable of generating that same level of friction in which case why bother with the linen and (c) the sorts of temperatures necessary to change the steel enough to improve the stropping are probably enough to affect the temper.
I think the canvas is slightly abrasive, enough to knock off the softer oxidized steel, and maybe enough to slowly sharpen the hard steel as well. Most of the benefit of the linen comes over long stretches of time though. It won't help today's shave much, but used daily it will keep the blade sharp for months.
Apart from possibly being ever so very slightly abrasive, a good linen (or canvas) protects the fine leather surface of your strop. Every now and then, someone looking to edges with magnification reports that his stropping causes stray scratches on the bevel of his razors.
What happens is that occasional debris (oxidation - harder that the actual steel -, microscopical chips from edge deterioration) gets stuck into the surface of the leather. The idea of a good linen is to use a fabric that can embed those particles into the depths of its structure, where they are out of reach of the edge.
So I have read in a book, and it still makes sense to me.
But I concur that a good linen has some edge shaping abilities of its own.
Bart.
This makes sense to me as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
I think that linen does a better job of removing oxidation and keeping the edge sharper than canvas. Of course, this is based on the experience of a guy with less than a full year of straight razor use, so take that for what it's worth.
However, I don't buy the heating the edge theory before the leather (see disclaimer above :rofl2:). I'd be interested to see someone experiment with a thermometer on the edge after stropping on linen.
So is it your assertion that this is the only value of the linen/cotton part of a strop?Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
After quite a bit of experimentation with my canvas strop, the only effect I can detect seems to be that it cleans the blade of debris. Let's say that I am using CrO or Diamond on balsa wood strop, and I clean the blade with cloth and test with the HHT in multiple locations all along the blade. Then, I take say 4 passes on the canvas strop using an X pattern and with the slightest pressure. When I go back to the HHT the hair is cut noticeably easier. It has happened enough times, and in an easily reproducible manner, that I have some confidence that the strop is removing debris from the blade edge.
The underlying assumption is that 4 passes on canvas is not removing metal. And, with the extremely light pressure I use, I can't believe it is shaping the micro edge, or that it is heating up the metal.
If it is true that the canvas is removing debris, then it's use preceding the leather strop makes sense. For it would ensure that the blade metal is contacting the leather, rather than a microscopic layer of debris.
My guess...
How hard is oxidized steel?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
The brown stuff, Fe²0³, also known as hematite has a hardness value of 5 to 6 on the Mohs scale. It is used in jewelers rouge.Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
The black stuff, Fe³04, also known as magnetide has a hardness value of 5.5 to 6.5 on the Mohs scale. Also used in abrasive compounds.
In most, but not all cases oxides are harder than the metal they are derived from. Aluminum is a well know example where the oxide is 50 times harder than the metal itself. The difference between hardened steel and its oxides is not that big, but enough to be effective.
+1 on cleaning debris off - any residue lather. (Though I clean the blade on a towel after my shave so this effect might be unneccesary).
Maybe someone with a microscope hooked up to a computer could do a series of magnified before and after pics, comparing:
Un-stropped
Stropped on canvas
Stropped on leather
Stropped on leather only
For the keen you could do this over a few weeks and see if there is any discernible visual difference. (Sorry - don't have one of these microscopes so can't do it).
Well - that's my suggestion for an experiment.
All the best,
Michael.
We had another thread going on stropping...
One thing for sure, the better you learn to strop the longer you go between honing....
Ask anyone on here that really knows how the strop how long they go between honing their razors....
I gotta take the total non-scientific approach to this :D
Since Bart and Parker explained it rather well I will agree with them in the layman's way :rofl2:
Just look at a white Linen strop after 100 razors, there is something on it alright, and I think that something looks like metal especially oxidized metal...
I am a 25/50 Linen/Leather everyday keeps the hone doctor away kind of guy....
Hmmmmm think about that I actually hone razors for money, and I am telling you learn to strop, and you don't have to hone as often....
ps: I just thought of something else, I would rather have all that crap on the linen then embedded in my leather strop....
It seems obvious to me that the metaphysical benefits of stropping are assertive. At the appropriate angle and with the proper substrates, the cumulative effect of the density of the organics involved lead me to believe that the distinction between non comparison is less than punitive. A laser optical-delusional cross study with extremely intense magnification under maximum stress should divulge a thesis deserving of outstanding appreciation. Reinforcement under laboratory conditions with logistical documentation and process adherence will confirm that any amount of strokes undertaken on the linen strop and regardless of the pressure submitted to the fabric, utilizes time.
I also have been known to hone a few razors and would concur that stropping can be beneficial to the sport so long as enhancing additives are not considered until such time as we can establish standards and testing parameters.
Lynn
What he said:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
So Stropping has an effect, we could see under a microscope, and learn from, also tests will show it takes time...........:rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
I have seen you in a couple of videos Lynn, and I am sure I would remember if you spoke like that in real life....hahahaha
All I know is that if I strop on linen (never tried cotton) or webbed fabric before the leather .... doing 50 & 50 .... I will pass HHT far more than if I strop on leather alone. :shrug:
The barber manual excerpt in the SRP Wiki is very specific that you should only strop on leather following the hones. Strop on linen/leather once you've shaved with the razor until you go back to the hones.
I did this for awhile and then read a post by mparker762 where he said that he had honed a razor and stropped on linen/leather. So I decided it was alright for me to strop on linen following the hones and then leather.
Not scientific but I seem to be getting sharper results. :confused:
The only result that matters :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
That's a lovely post, Lynn, if it weren't so long a use it as my sig:).
Quarter of an hour later and I'm still smiling at it.
Is the cloth strop necessary: no. However, it seems that my blades are better maintained when i employ one; ie they stay sharper for longer periods of time and require less touch up work. So the cloth strop is more than worth using regularly.
Cheers!
Yesterday, I went "stropless" because I wanted to get a fair comparison of 3 finishing hones I am trying out. Shaving straight off the hone definitely showed me which hone gave the better shave (although all were more comfortable than expected). I concluded that I could shave straight off the hone with any of them, but I would rather strop.