I need help from an expert in soap lather making

I have been trying to make lather from soap as instructed from here Making basic soap lather - Straight Razor Place Wiki the first day I did it, it turn out pretty well. But after my lather has stunk. It is flat, totally without foam and probably doesn't have enough water or is clearly too watered down. There doesn't seem to be a way to get it just right. It just won't turn into lather. I have been using soap from The Art Of Shaving. It has gotten worn down. In fact, the other day the soap broke into pieces. Is it possible that that could have anything to do with my lack of lather? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

I haven't used the AOS soap so I cannot speak to that. I confess that I haven't read the SRP Wiki lathering tutorial. If you haven't seen a video on Youtube by a guy named Mantic on lathering give it a look. His video was my biggest breakthrough on learning to create a good lather. There is a happy medium of soap and or cream and water plus the technique and time to whip it up. More folks will be along with good suggestions but if you haven't seen the vid give it a look.

YouTube - Introduction to Traditional Wetshaving, Part 2: Lathering

Art of Shaving makes great soaps, so you are fine there. The steps to making a great soap lather are pretty easy.

1. Soak the brush in warm water and put a little bit of water on the top of the puck to soften it. (I usually do this just before getting in the shower)

2. Next, squeeze the brush and give it a couple of shakes rendering it almost dry. (counter-intuitive, I know, but trust me)

3. Go to the soap puck for 30-45 seconds loading the brush... using enough product cannot be stressed too much, IMO.

4a. If you are using a bowl, add about 1 teaspoon of water to the bowl and start building the lather. Continue to work the lather in the bowl and water a little at a time until your lather is the consistency of yogurt and has self-supporting peaks of lather

4b. If you like to face lather, the same applies except you will just want to ensure that your face is really good and wet prior to starting to build the lather, and to add water the brush, briefly wet the tips of the brush.

Work the lather in and enjoy the shave.

It would probably help to practice and just continue to add a little bit of water until the lather breaks down on you so you can see all the stages of possible lather. FWIW, Mantic's videos look easy and I'm not sure, but I think he uses glycerin soaps in them which build a quicker lather. Your AoS soap is tallow, and although it takes more work, it is a finer lather... That's among the better soaps available to us.

:gl:

Calling GLEN!!!!!!!!!:w

So you have a good written set of guidelines and also have probably already watched the mantic video, courtesy of Jimmy ;-). His videos are very good. More importantly, you were able to create good lather the first time.

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Originally Posted by Warbler

I have been trying to make lather from soap as instructed from here Making basic soap lather - Straight Razor Place Wiki the first day I did it, it turn out pretty well.

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Clearly, if the process failed after that, you did not follow the exact procedure. It appears that the water:soap ratios may be a bit off. The idea is to make the lather making process consistent so that you can make good lather every time. The best way to do this is by using a separate bowl for lathering, that is, do not lather in the container where you have the soap if you have one. I love face lathering but I think that it is easier to get the water:soap ratios right when you lather in a bowl. I would recommend sticking to one method until you master it, I suggest to use bowl lathering. Please, do not try to learn every method at once.

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Originally Posted by Warbler

But after my lather has stunk. It is flat, totally without foam and probably doesn't have enough water or is clearly too watered down.

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Yes there is and you will find it soon. Because consistency is what you are after, you must make sure that the amount of soap you use is the "same" every time, unless you determine that it has to be adjusted. This is why I think that bowl lathering may be helpful at first as you have more control over the variables. You can control to a degree how much soap (it is even easier with creams) and water you add.

Assuming that you do not have very hard water, it takes about 3 sec to load the brush. You do not really need much, believe me. You should definitely not spend a comparable amount of time loading your brush as building your lather bu there are exceptions. The next step is, as mantic says in the video, adding water as you whip, this should be gradual. Remember that adding water to the lather is easier (at first) than adding more soap. You should also allow some time for the lather to form, at least 1 minute, some time twice as long. The whipping should be also vigorous but without being a workout. You do not need much water. How much water is enough? well, enough to find the peak of the soap, the point where no more lather can be produced for a given amount of soap. After that, add a couple of drops, literally, to hydrate it.

If the lather vanishes into thin air when you apply to your face, you went too far past the peak. Next time, use the same amount of soap but reduce the water. If your lather is to dry, you need to add a bit more water. How do you know if your lather is dry? put a little bit of lather on your thumb and touch it with your index finger; then separate the thumb and the index finger slowly and see how long you can go before the lather breaks. You should be able to go about 1". I call this the inch test ;-).

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Originally Posted by Warbler

There doesn't seem to be a way to get it just right. It just won't turn into lather.

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See, assuming that you only have 1 soap and have been using it everyday since you joined SRP, you should have plenty of soap left but I do not know the specifics. Using too much soap is a fairly common occurrence. This soap is good and you should not have trouble lathering due to soap malfunction ;-).

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Originally Posted by Warbler

I have been using soap from The Art Of Shaving. It has gotten worn down. In fact, the other day the soap broke into pieces. Is it possible that that could have anything to do with my lack of lather? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

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If you have any other questions, feel free to drop me a PM.

Al raz.

Yeah what Al said I think more then sums it up.

What brush are you using? badger, boar or synthetic?
Some people, myself included, have found that boars need a bit of a learning and there are few threads about these. Good soaking of the bristles, good jiggle (it helped me to start with a bit dryer brush, then adding water), picking up enough soap, and start whisking, adding water in maybe tea-spoon portions. In addition to these, boar will break in with time, making it easier to lather. Also, I don't let boar sit in lather between passes nowdays.

first, thank you all for all of your advice.

just to give more info. I use a badger brush from crabtree and evelyn. I've been trying to mix the lather in the bowl, not the face. I've been using the soap about half a year. The soap just got small and thin enough that it just broke into four pieces(perhaps I was using it incorrectly for those 6 months). What I've been trying to do(and it worked on the first day but not after) I soak the soap in the shaving bowl(I soak the brush in a plastic glass). I soak them both for about five minutes. After the five minutes, I empty both containers, I remove the soap from the shaving bowl and sit it on the sink. I then add a little water to the shaving bowl. I then load the brush and try to build lather.

The soap needs to be IN something even if that something is your hand...

A soap cup/dish/bowl is even better,,, The pumping and swirling action needs to suck in air to create the lather..
Some other things, heat is your friend, the water should be as hot as your hands can stand..
When you add water to the lather do not add it to the lather, dribble it off your fingers to the base of the bristle knot, trust me it works better...

The method that Mantic shows is called the "safe method" is is also part of this thread...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...berlather.html

What many don't realize is that you can use just the parts of that Uber method that you want to...

Some very, very, easy soaps to lather with...

SRD soaps
Prairie Creations
Ogallala soaps
Tabac



Note:
I am not saying these are the best soaps on the market I am saying they lather very, very, easy... before everyone starts saying what is better... I have some of the hardest well water you can find, so I have really learned how to create lather many different ways...

You are welcome. Crabtree & Evelyn brushes are made by Edwin Jagger and they are pretty good, so no worries.

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Originally Posted by Warbler

first, thank you all for all of your advice.
just to give more info. I use a badger brush from crabtree and evelyn.

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Good, bowl lathering is probably the best method right now, see my previous post.

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Originally Posted by Warbler

I've been trying to mix the lather in the bowl, not the face.

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Just as I estimated ;-). What I was trying to tell you is that perhaps you were using a bit too much soap, I would not call it incorrectly necessarily though, perhaps a bit inefficient. There is a guy here that gets 5 to 7 years per puck, although it is a different brand (Tabac). As Glen said, loading the brush works best if the puck is held somehow.

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Originally Posted by Warbler

I've been using the soap about half a year. The soap just got small and thin enough that it just broke into four pieces(perhaps I was using it incorrectly for those 6 months)..

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First, I would advice against soaking the puck in water, especially if you use hot water. I realize now where some of your soap is going ;-). Adding a few drops of water to the top of the soap works great and since you remove that soapy water with the brush, you do not lose as much.

I think that soaking brushes for extended periods of time is completely unnecessary (and depending on the temperature, even detrimental) but others like it so I am not going to comment on that, since that should not have an effect on the lathering (other than what Glen mentioned).

Perhaps what you need to focus on is how much water do you leave in the brush and bowl?, how long do you load the brush for? and how much water do you add while building the lather?

If you check on the the wiki entry, Mantic video, my previous post and Glen's post (I hope that I did not forget anybody), you get a pretty good idea of the general quantities involved in the process: 1) remove most water from the brush by either shaking it or squeezing it; 2) load the brush for about 3 seconds using a swirling motion; 3) add a tiny amount of water and start swirling. After you find the peak of the soap, hydrate the lather and use it. After you find the perfect combination, I can assure you that you will get consistent lather every time.

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Originally Posted by Warbler

What I've been trying to do(and it worked on the first day but not after) I soak the soap in the shaving bowl(I soak the brush in a plastic glass). I soak them both for about five minutes. After the five minutes, I empty both containers, I remove the soap from the shaving bowl and sit it on the sink. I then add a little water to the shaving bowl. I then load the brush and try to build lather.

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Al raz.

thanks again, I'll try what you've advised and see if it works. Just so you know, I do hold the soap in the my hand when I load the brush.

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Originally Posted by Warbler

I soak the soap in the shaving bowl(I soak the brush in a plastic glass). I soak them both for about five minutes. After the five minutes, I empty both containers, I remove the soap from the shaving bowl and sit it on the sink. I then add a little water to the shaving bowl. I then load the brush and try to build lather.

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Why do you soak the soap? You don't need to do that as it only softens the soap too much and cause the breaking after drying.

I think you have too much water in the process. If you only pick up the brush out of the water without squeezing it it won't work.
There is no mystique in the lathering process. It is not magic. It is only learn how to handle soap(or cream) and water ratio.

I'm not sure what is the point of trying to learn to do uberlather if person did not get the basic lather right? :confused:

You might try face lathering, its what I do. I think its more forgiving of ratios and all that stuff, but perhaps that just b/c I'm used to it. Anyway, I just wet the brush, shake it out a little, rub it on the wet soap, rub that around my face (its kind of like "soap concentrate" at this point), then just start building lather on the spread out soap, adding water as needed by dipping the brush. If you start with a barely damp brush you should be able to hit the sweet spot pretty easy, I'd think.

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Originally Posted by TonyJ

Why do you soak the soap? You don't need to do that as it only softens the soap too much and cause the breaking after drying.

I think you have too much water in the process. If you only pick up the brush out of the water without squeezing it it won't work.
There is no mystique in the lathering process. It is not magic. It is only learn how to handle soap(or cream) and water ratio.

I'm not sure what is the point of trying to learn to do uberlather if person did not get the basic lather right? :confused:

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Depending on the soap, you may be right or soaking the soap can be very helpful. Hard triple-milled soaps sometimes benefit from soaking the top with a teaspoon of water. Glycerin doesn't, IME.

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Originally Posted by TonyJ

There is no mystique in the lathering process. It is not magic. It is only learn how to handle soap(or cream) and water ratio.

Tony although I tend to agree with you on this, the shear amount of threads asking just these questions, are why we answer them again and again.. Obviously it isn't as easy to all people....


I'm not sure what is the point of trying to learn to do uberlather if person did not get the basic lather right? :confused:

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"What many don't realize is that you can use just the parts of that Uber method that you want to..."

Hmmmm just proved that point huh???

I think I may have misread the instructions on soap lathering here Making basic soap lather - Straight Razor Place Wiki I thought it said to soak the soap as well as the brush, but it just says to drop a little water on the soap. It doesn't say whether you should do this before soaking the brush or just before you start to load your brush. I wasn't trying to learn uberlather just yet, I just wanted basic usable lather that was better than what you get out of those cans. Yes, I do squeeze and shake the water out of the brush before loading it.

on another note, I'm sorry if I should have read other threads on this subject instead of creating my own.

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Originally Posted by Warbler

I think I may have misread the instructions on soap lathering here Making basic soap lather - Straight Razor Place Wiki I thought it said to soak the soap as well as the brush, but it just says to drop a little water on the soap. It doesn't say whether you should do this before soaking the brush or just before you start to load your brush. I wasn't trying to learn uberlather just yet, I just wanted basic usable lather that was better than what you get out of those cans. Yes, I do squeeze and shake the water out of the brush before loading it.

on another note, I'm sorry if I should have read other threads on this subject instead of creating my own.

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I think you are well on your way to figuring this thing out. Remember it is not rocket science to figure out how to get the water soap ratio right. I had trouble too when starting with soap. Like you it was too wet or else it just dried up really quick on my face.

This is how I figured it out when starting out. After shaking out your brush whether you soak it or just run it under water, start brushing your opposite hand with the brush this puts a little water in your off hand. Load your brush with soap it just takes maybe less than 5 seconds to get enough soap.

Then start making the lather in the palm of your wet off hand. You can really feel in your hand when the lather gets to where you want to use it. Then grab your bowl and scoop it off your hand. There is still enough soap in your brush to build more lather in your hand one or two more times. I was able to completely fill my bowl with lather. Eventually you can just skip making the lather on your hand once you figure out how much water you need vs how long you load the brush with soap. You just need to get a similar amount of water in the bowl as you had on your hand.

You may find that you don't need any extra water at all, depends on how well you shake out your soaked brush, you may find that this is too much water and may want to shake it out more. In any event I did it like this and after about 3-5 shaves I had a real good idea of how much water to add to my dish for how I shake out my brush and how much soap I load. No problems for making it in my bowl. Good Luck.

well, I tried again today and failed again. I don't know what it is. Maybe my water is too hard or not hard enough. In disgust, I threw away the four pieces of soap. Its obviously not going to work. Its either to liquidity or just flat. Is there an easy way to test the hardness of your water?

I am seeing a pattern here that I do not agree with, at least 2 people have used the reference of 3-5 seconds to load enough soap on the brush...

I think maybe there is a little more variance then we think in water then, because with my very hard water 3-5 seconds of loading soap on the brush would not accomplish anything at all... I swirl an almost dry brush on the top of the soap puck for at least 30 seconds pushing and swirling pretty hard to load soap before ever trying to build lather... In that thread you will see where I say the soap should look clumpy, on the brush before you start, I think Mantic shows or describes the same thing... My advice is forget the time references and load until it is clumpy first...

Also since you are now shopping for a soap you might want to go with one of the proved hard water performers I listed...

hmm, maybe I'll get the soap out the trash and try again, this time loading more soap.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am seeing a pattern here that I do not agree with, at least 2 people have used the reference of 3-5 seconds to load enough soap on the brush...

I think maybe there is a little more variance then we think in water then, because with my very hard water 3-5 seconds of loading soap on the brush would not accomplish anything at all... I swirl an almost dry brush on the top of the soap puck for at least 30 seconds pushing and swirling pretty hard to load soap before ever trying to build lather... In that thread you will see where I say the soap should look clumpy, on the brush before you start, I think Mantic shows or describes the same thing... My advice is forget the time references and load until it is clumpy first...

Also since you are now shopping for a soap you might want to go with one of the proved hard water performers I listed...

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Yep, that's why I said 30-45 seconds in my first post in this thread. His soap (Art of Shaving) is one of the absolute best soaps on the market. Really, it's great stuff. However, you have to load your brush for a long time to get enough product to create a good lather. Warbler, if you'll read my first post in this thread and do exactly that, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts you can build a nice lather :gl:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

"What many don't realize is that you can use just the parts of that Uber method that you want to..."

Hmmmm just proved that point huh???

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Glen, I agree with you that there are a lot of threads and questions about the how to create the lather and that was the only reason why I did the basic lathering instructions at the wiki.
Before that there was only your uberlather article and people ask still a lot of questions about the basic lathering.
So I figure that the uberlather article wasn't exactly the right article for the beginners whereas it serves the advanced users more than better.
After the basic lathering article these lathering threads drops down clearly.
Still beginners ask questions about the lathering and other people than me linked the answers to that basic article and people found help. I was pleased.

Now back to this thread. It is obvious that lathering process fails sometimes due to many reasons and we have wiki what we should develop until it's bullet proof. Right now it is not. This thread shows it.
What parts exactly do you mean in the uberlather article what warbler can use to solve problem?

Tony:
If you actually break that Uber thread down into only what you need,,,
Such as in this case the soap part.. you would be left with the "Safe Method" of lathering...
He would not use the parts about the Cream and Glycerin, that is actually what I meant... No offense intended it is just many times people overlook that you don't have to make Uberlather, you can just use the parts of that thread that apply to what you are doing...

All we can keep trying to do is account for variables that come up, I am not sure any thread or Wiki entry will ever be "bulletproof" but the more people like you that keep trying the better we get...

update: I've switched over to a shaving cream called Jack Black. It gives me really nice lather. Not if I'll ever try the soap again.