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Ok I have a question on the different grinds. I looked on wiki and elsewhere that shows the different grinds, but haven't been able to find much on how they differ when it comes to the shave. Somewhere said something like a full hollowgrind allows the edge to flex for a closer shave. I'm assuming the flexing would also mean more chances to nick yourself as well. And wedge or 1/4 hollow being better for thick and/or course hair.
Yes a full hollow gives alot of feedback,its sound like you are buttering toast,really cool. And on the opposite end you have the wedge and its like a snow plow making no noise at all while its mowing your face. Also when you strop a wedge,it is silent,while the hollows tend to sing when stropped.And then you have all the other grinds in between. I like shaving with them all!!
Not really. You'll get used to whatever you use. There are plenty of razors that were advertised for 'tough beards' that are full hollows.Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper15
Stiffer grind and heavier razor will just provide your hand with less feedback, which may be good or bad, depending on what you do with that.
For example when your hand is shaky and insecure a heavier razor will mask some of that and you will get better shave, but also it'll take you longer to learn to control the razor well.
The closeness of the shave depends on the sharpness of the razor and the skill using it, the grind is irrelevant.
Think of it like driving a sports car with loads of road feel and great handling and then getting into a 10 ton truck with no road feel and poor handling. Just because the truck doesn't have the same qualities as the sports car doesn't mean you can't drive it with plenty of skill and finesse.
If you use say a wedge you become accustomed to it's qualities and get the same shave as if you used any other grind.
People have their own preferences too. Different grinds feel different while shaving, obviously wedges are heavier, full hollows are lighter. I like the big and heavy choppers, others don't. Either will shave good, if sharpened properly.
I'll have to get a few once I get started then I'll figure out which is better for me. Thanks for the info.
Sharp is sharp. The angle of attack is the same between most razors, which means that they all cut hair. IMHO, however, if a hollow comes up against a stubborn hair, it will tend to flex OVER the hair and save it for another pass. The wedge razors don't care what's in it's way and just slams right through everything. As a result, and I'm sure that it was just because I started out using hollows is that I get less irritation from a hollow as I do a wedge.
good point. I have been wondering if a wedge would be harder to learn with over a hollow, and if it would take less passes to shave with a wedge.
Good comments above. A comment on something other than the shaving experience is in order I believe. Keeping hollowed out blades sharp is much easier. I don't recommend wedges or near wedges for newbies because they are more difficult to maintain.
It makes no difference IMO. Sure they're different to use, but you can get just as good a shave from one as to the other.
I have a fairly touch beard and sensitive skin (a bad combination!) and I like to use both wedges and full hollows and get great shaves from both.
Just personal preference really as to which one you go for...! All part of the fun! :)
In my experience, once sharpened properly, wedges do not feel as sharp when touched with a fingertip but they shave as well as hollows. I've thought that the feel must come from the different blade angle. Nuthing to do with the actual sharpness. Once i understood this i've been using mostly wedges.
Of the SR's I've found around here none have been wedges, but I figured at some point after I get the hang of using a straight I'd find a wedge and try it out. I don't think that either a wedge or a hollow would have any problem stropping. I would think that any lack of feel to the edge would be from having more steel at the edge and therefore wider bevel so it wouldn't be a fine an edge as hollow.
I have a very, very thick, coarse beard and when I first started shaving with a straight, I tried to acquire thicker grinds because I thought they were better for my beard type.
Well now I have shaved with a wedge, a 1/4 hollow, a 1/2 hollow and a full hollow and I have noticed no significant difference in shave quality from the different grinds. Are they different? -- Yes. Is a wedge better than a full hollow for a thick beard? -- No. In my limited experience I can answer this definitively. I think that it is fun to shave with different types of razors varying in size and grind and I don't think I will every commit to one type/size.
I will say that stropping a wedge or 1/4 hollow just feels better to me and this is where I notice a difference. I know it is probably psychological, but I just feel that the thicker grinds are less "delicate" and stropping them just feels better to me. Not sure what to make of that though. :shrug:
I agree...There is no difference in shave quality. I have noticed a slight difference in the feedback my wedge gives me whilst shaving as opposed to my full hollow or extra hollow razors, but it is almost imperceptible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhenry
So what's the difference your noticing between the two?
Old books mention hollow grounds are superior in shave quality but needs more care/maintenance.
Thumper: first, THANK YOU for asking this question. I was about to start a thread asking the same thing. 'Middle aged noob here, at about 7-8wks. My questions lately have been about trying to describe the differences in grinds and sizes. All I've found was some form of 'try them all'. Horse trading to me is a PITA. Fortunately, there are really good people & attitudes here - I'm most grateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper15
Your question about grind is one of my two biggest questions - the other being blade size. In my short experience, anything smaller than 5/8 can shave just fine, but takes more work. 'Less fun, requires more care on heavy beard sections, as the resistance it encounters makes the blade want to rotate on it's axis - rapidly changing the blade angle. The skilled can probably shave w/ a piece of sharpened angle iron, but the short blades look easier to use, and are NOT.
Grind. I've used 4/8 full H, 5/8 full hollow in HCS and stainless, and had good shaves from both. One 5/8 1/2 hollow, which gives less feedback, but also less drama or work to get the good shave. Yesterday, got my first 6/8, 1/4 hollow (wacker). The short version is it was the easiest and finest shave I've had so far. If feedback is measured by the sound of the blade ringing, it has less. If feedback is measured by the sensation on the face, I'd say it delivers as much, but it's more tactile than audible. It's a heavier blade, w/ some girth in the shank, which helps those w/ larger hands. The stability of the heavier blade, with the more sedate sound, is making the shave easier. Where this is most evident is being able to use the toe more for depressions under the jaw line and vertical dips where adams apple transitions to the neck muscles. I'm less concerned that the vibration or flex will do something undesireable (like the twisting of the short 4/8). I can see why the heavier grinds inspire confidence in the Noob.
Now when I hear the very experienced guys - look at JimmyHAD's review of his 2 razor set from wacker, it seems that although the experienced can enjoy a wider range of heights and grinds, not all forsake their heavier grinds for the full or extra hollows.
The question that remains for me is about the taller blades - which Jimmy speaks of. John at shavingshop (wonderful to talk or work with) mentioned he thought the taller (7/8, 8/8) blades were more stiff (than shorter blades of the same grind), even if full hollow grinds. I've not tested w/ a blade yet, but if that how it works on my face, I've moved completely out of the 5/8s blades & will likely reside in 6/8 at 1/2-3/4 hollow or 7/8 blades in 1/2 to full hollow, knowing the stiffness will be available to make the toe more useful and managable.
I would have to confirm that the heavier grind is easier for this noob, but I suspect that even if skills grow to allow full hollow joy, I suspect I'm going to keep a heavy grind around anyway.
Pinklather: alot of what you posted was what I was wondering about, blade stiffness and the amount of feedback in the shave with each. A 6/8 full will not be a stiff as a 6/8 1/2, and a 1/2 will not be as stiff as a 1/4 and so on and so on. This is like a conversation I had with the driver of the sprint car I crewed on, he said ask any metalergist and they'll say steel has no memory, which I found odd since we use steel for springs in torsion bars and last time I checked they sprung back. I have yet to buy a straight but have been handling as many as I can find in the antique stores and I will say the 5/8 and 4/8 just don't fit my hands well. They feel dinky. Personally I'm starting to look more at the 6/8 in a half grind to start with and then take it from there. When I lived in the Hood River area in washington I got a haircut at a barber shop there ( which he was retiring in a week or so) and he used a straight to finish the haircut. Now I don't know what gringd was on that blade but man when he started it sounded like he was taking hide with it, but it was the best damn haircut I ever got.
Hi Thumper!
The very next shave w/ the wacker was a re-run of the first - incredible and EASY. This, with a spanish point.
I'm starting to think the heavier blade - whether or not the grind is heavy, is a big part of it. 'Feels good, steady. I'm not spending any mental energy over feeling blade angle get out of sorts. I started shaving ATG the first few shaves, and it didn't seem that hard w/ a 5/8 full hollow. With the heavy blade, it just seems quite normal.
Due mostly to impatience, I overpaid for a Dovo Stainless micarta ($225 5/8 full hol), which was very much NOT shave ready. That's the same price as the wacker. Since then, I've read, experimented, bled (repeat ad naseum). If I could start over, I'd probably buy something at least 6/8, likely something less than full hollow, and I must agree w/ the forums that buying new production or functional vintage from a respected forum member would be how I'd do it. I'd mention specific guys, but that would be a disservice to others who deserve equal credit. A big benefit is getting it already honed, which is another skill with a substantial learning curve. Trying to learn honing and str8 shaving together, detracts from learning to shave well.
One comment about the heavier grinds for the noob - someone said they are harder to maintain. My particular wacker has a very mild, designed-in smile (longitudinal curvature). This has taken some mild learning to strop, but hasn't been that hard. If the blade were completely straight, I don't think it would be any harder than a full hollow - probably easier, again because of the weight/stability riding the strop.
I hope you make fewer mistakes than I. Before the heavier wacker, a shave WAS an event, but nervous/tense, trying to get it right and keep enough blood to function :). (that's exaggeration) Although it quickly became bloodless, using the wacker (or I suspect any similar quality/grind/size) changed the game in a single shave. It's now relaxed, and a pleasure. I shave ATG at will, and without tension or drama.
The current dilema (sp) is whether or not to pull the trigger on a Williams custom, and whether to stick w/ 6/8, try 7/8, and how heavy a grind. If the wacker is that good, could the Williams be better? Here, I'm not thinking appearance or embellishment, but the shave. The most disturbing thing I've read to date was experienced guys counseling a noob to try a more humble blade, and if they thought they'd stay with it - get the Williams immediately. (the sound you hear is my wallet running through the door, screaming)
Hey sounds like you have found one that works for ya. I'd say if your doing good with the 6/8 I wouldn't think you would have any problem with a 7/8. I've only found one straight that is a half hollow 6/8 and a low price to start with a dovo best quality. I've been looking on the classifieds here and man they don't stay for sale long the better ones get snatched up quick lol. I'm like you I'd prefer a bit of weight to the razor. Believe me I want to eliminate mistakes if I can that's why I'm researching and taking my time in deciding what to start with. I have been shaving with a double for something like 18 years so maybe a straight won't be too much of a stretch in learning curve. I hope lol.