Questions about strops, pastes, and honing

I have a question about stop pastes and hones. I have a DOVO razor that seems to shaving reasonably well (as well as it's operator is capable of). So far I have been stropping it with an Illinois 827 stop - first the linen side then the leather (which I have treated with strop dressing). I have the red and black stop paste from Classic Shaving, and, per the advice of someone on this forum (can't remember who), I was planning on using the paste on an old leather belt - cut in half, each half for a different paste. Is this a reasonable plan? If so, at what point do should I use the pasted stops, and in which order. I also bought a hone - Premier hone - when should I use this. The hone apparently comes with dry hone instructions but I assume it can be used wet as well. If so, where can I find wet hone instructions and which is preferable? Whew - lots of questions - thanks in advance. Rich Greenberg

The unpasted strop will not sharpen a dull razor for that you will need either the pasted strops or the hone. As for the pastes use the red and then the black. I use the pasted strop to brighten up a dulling razor and I use my hone to work with a dull blade. That is just me though. My hone is a Norton 4k/8k hone which I soak in water for 15 minutes before I use it. I then use the pyramid pattern described in the forums. You can get directions in the honing forum as to how to do it. Good luck and enjoy.

Yea, very reasonable plan and a good money saver. Ofcourse a belt will not be completely as effective as extra strops, but close enough. Remember to use only a little and save more for other opportunities.

I don't remember the order of the pastes, those are the TI pastes. You can probably do a search. You want the finest grit last.

Honing, whether on pastes or hones is done whenever the razor begins to pull or you decide you want a sharper edge. A little caution is in order as you can overhone a razor and it can shave poorly. If you use the pastes you could avoid the hone for a long time and vice a versa. I would probably start with the pastes and then strop after cleaning it a little, then back to shaving. Should last a week or two, then just keep going. At some point, maybe once a month a few passes on the hone might be called for.

Its kinda like asking how often you put air in your tires . . . the answer is when the air gets low.

I like to run a razor over pastes once a week and over a stone every other week, but I'm sure everyone is different.

I think using a hone is the same (directions wise) whether wet or dry. With the exception that if your using it dry you want to clean it often to remove build up.

Thanks for the replies - how many times (passes back and forth) should I strop the razor on the pasted strops, and also on the regular strop?

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Originally Posted by rgsccr

Thanks for the replies - how many times should I strop the razor on the pasted strops, and also on the regular strop?

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On the pasted strop do 20 and 20 see how that works. You can always repeat. On the plain strop I do 30 trips before I shave. Just my 2 cents.:D

Welcome to the group!:)

Your plan on using the belts is just fine. Just be sure to lay them on a flat surface when using them. Do not use them as a hanging strop.

The order to use them is
1. Premier
2. Red
3. Black
4. Plain leather strop

Use the Premier, Red and Black only until your razor is shaving you well. Then stop using them and only use the plain leather strop. Use the Pyramid method on the Premier until it passes either the thumb test (not thumbnail test) or the hanging hair test. Then move on to the red & black pastes.
Be sure and clean your razor after each of the pastes so that you avoid cross contamination.
20-30 laps sounds about right for a starting point.

Wet honing. Use either water or lather. Use the X pattern. See the help files for some graphics that demonstrate the movement.

Hope this helps,:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rgsccr

I have a question about stop pastes and hones. I have a DOVO razor that seems to shaving reasonably well (as well as it's operator is capable of). So far I have been stropping it with an Illinois 827 stop - first the linen side then the leather (which I have treated with strop dressing). I have the red and black stop paste from Classic Shaving, and, per the advice of someone on this forum (can't remember who), I was planning on using the paste on an old leather belt - cut in half, each half for a different paste. Is this a reasonable plan? If so, at what point do should I use the pasted stops, and in which order. I also bought a hone - Premier hone - when should I use this. The hone apparently comes with dry hone instructions but I assume it can be used wet as well. If so, where can I find wet hone instructions and which is preferable? Whew - lots of questions - thanks in advance. Rich Greenberg

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You need to purchase a norton 4000/8000 hone...if you master the honing tech necessary to sharpen the razor it should lasts between 2-3 months with reg stroping...If you feel compelled to use paste purchase a four sided paddle strop with approp pastes from tony lynn or classic shaving or other vendor keep inmind that many shavers dont use paste...they refresh with 8000 norton 10-15 passes...many shavers dont realize that a poorly honed razr may seem sharp initially but will loose its edge rather quickly thus reqiring a new hone...if the supposed honemeisters skills are lacking, the process just propetuates itself and goes full circle

What is the difference between a pasted balsa paddle strop and a pasted leather paddle stop? Are they for different applications?

Dave

Dave,
Both will work very much the same. Although balsa is a very soft porous wood it feels harder than the leather surface and many people like it for the finest of pastes like the 0.25. I use it for that as well and even for the 0.5 at times.

The all leather is still my most popular choice though and works well for all grits. Just opinion but if choosing a 4 sided strop and wanting to use balsa I would use it only on the 0.25 or 0.5 sides leaving leather for the more coarse pastes.

Tony

I honed my W&B last night:

-pyramid on 4000/8000 Norton
-.5 diamond paste on paddle
-passed HHT
-stropped 50 laps (plain hanging strop)...awful test shave
-stropped 50 laps...awful test shave
-stropped 50 laps...better but not good

It was shaving better before I honed, and it would not pass the HHT...where did I go wrong?

Dave

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Originally Posted by Tobico4

It was shaving better before I honed, and it would not pass the HHT...where did I go wrong?

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Well, you know that's a tough question to answer out of the gate, but I'd say you probably didn't do enough reading of the Help Files and you likely used too much pressure on the hone and or the strop. Don't press down, especially toward the end of the pyramid or on the strop. Just hold the razor to the strop or hone firmly enough to keep it from coming off. Some pressure can sometimes be used ver yearly in the honing.

Also make sure you are sharpening the entire edge by gently and evenly rolling the blades contact with the hone from heel to tip as you progress along the hone. No pressure, just guidance of the blade.

Each razor is unique and some will reqire altering the pyramid slightly. Ending with a few 1/3's is usually a good idea.

X

The HHT is done after the 8000 but before the pasted strop.
Go back and perform a pyramid of
5/5
3/5
3/5
1/5
1/5
1/5
HHT
if it does not pass the HHT then
3/5
1/5
1/5
1/5
HHT
repeat this last set until it does pass the HHT.
then go to the paste and a test shave.

Just my two cents,:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tobico4

I honed my W&B last night:

-pyramid on 4000/8000 Norton
-.5 diamond paste on paddle
-passed HHT
-stropped 50 laps (plain hanging strop)...awful test shave
-stropped 50 laps...awful test shave
-stropped 50 laps...better but not good

It was shaving better before I honed, and it would not pass the HHT...where did I go wrong?

Dave

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...still trying to achieve the HHT off the hone...making progress...thanks Tony.

My next question:

There seems to be a spilt between those who "back hone" and those who don't...but all seem to agree that pasted strops are okay...this begs the question:

...what is the difference between "back honeing" and using a pasted strop (other than the grits invoved)? Both involve moving the razor (edge trailing) across an abrasive surface.

The engineer in me is curious.

Dave

Well, I don't intend to answer your question but I'll give you some food for thought since I'm one of the few that backhone. Generally, backhoning on high grit and pasted strops are pretty similar in my opinion. There are some that post that "backhoning is bad because it nullifies all your work and you have to start from scratch". I absolutely disagree with that statement. I disagree because in my personal experience its untrue. It is stated in a few documents though, but I don't care. And I don't believe in repeating what someone else wrote just because . . . without ever having tried it. Anyone that thinks that backhoning takes you back to the beginning, has probably never honed a razor off Ebay. Maybe their definition of beginning is different from mine.

It may take you back a step, but your not "starting over" in any way, shape, or form.

Sometimes I think you want to go back a step, and overhoning accomplishes going back a step, better than any other technique. So, when would that be? Well, when you screw up I suppose.

Now, on the other hand, I have found backhoning to help an edge only on occasion and assumed I was making mild corrections to the edge and not really helping it any. There have been a few times when an edge just won't take and I'll back hone to reset the edge and perhaps try sharpening the very edge with a few ultra light touches. But I find now that I don't need to do the backhoning and that its kind of, well....pointless.

At this point I think backhoning is best reserved for removing an overhoned edge, keeping in mind that the higher grits used on strops are less likely to create damage to the edge from the back end, essentially grinding the base, or support for the edge. The lower grit, if your willing to use it to backhone, would create greater and greater susceptability to bevel base damage. The initial contact point of hone and razor is probably the point that recieves the most "tear" on the hone and thus creates the most "cut". You want that to be the edge not at the base. Perhaps, with backhoning on 50K grit on the strop is actually a form of "lessening" the effect of the honing even more since the most action would be at the base and the least action is at the edge, thus the honing speed is a little slower. Which is kind of what your looking for at that point, since its already pretty darn sharp.

I think of forward honing as creating a sharp bevel, nothing more. Pretty simple. But forward honing is the better method for all grits. Maintaining striation angles is also a key to honing.

Ultimately, I think, honing a bevel, is honing a bevel, and makes no difference in the direction you go with the exception that backhoning may push material out onto the edge (as well as tearing off an overhoned edge) and simply add to the "junk" at the edge of the bevel. The very edge your trying to get smooth and sharp. Unlikely at 50K or 100K grit as little would be moved at all, in either direction. Perhaps, anything pushed out at that grit would be pushed OFF by the strop itself.

On those rare occasions when I thought it was helping, perhaps the bevel needed more steel up front to be forward honed in subsequent passes. For example if you lift the spine on a pass on the hone it'll get rolled. Forward honing wouldn't solve the problem for many passes, but backhoning would "help" with only one stroke on each side.

So, I think its a similar action, but should be reserved for the higher grits when you want to create a shaveable edge.

So, I think generally, its the same action, but less effective, unless your actually trying to move steel in that direction for some purpose, otherwise I'd say . . . don't bother.

Backhoning is typically performed on a hone to remove a wire edge. It can be used in other circumstances but that need not be discussed now.

The reason we use a backhoning stroke on an abrasive pasted paddle strop and a plain strop is to avoid cutting the leather in half. Its that simple.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tobico4

...still trying to achieve the HHT off the hone...making progress...thanks Tony.

My next question:

There seems to be a spilt between those who "back hone" and those who don't...but all seem to agree that pasted strops are okay...this begs the question:

...what is the difference between "back honeing" and using a pasted strop (other than the grits invoved)? Both involve moving the razor (edge trailing) across an abrasive surface.

The engineer in me is curious.

Dave

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The debategoes on and on! I dont backhone! If Im not happy with the edge after honing a razor, I let the razor sit for a day or so and start over...pyramid followed by codicule than 60 strops...I used to use paste but after learning to hone and getting good at it, I found it easier and better and more consistent to touch up razor with 10 laps on norton 8000 and 10 laps on coticule...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

The reason we use a backhoning stroke on an abrasive pasted paddle strop and a plain strop is to avoid cutting the leather in half. Its that simple.:)

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Okay, so if I use a .5 or .25 diamond paste on a cast iron lapping plate (which is how my tool room personnel use diamond paste) since I won't cut the lap...should I use an edge leading or edge trailing stroke?

Sorry to complicate things.

Dave

Either one is OK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tobico4

Okay, so if I use a .5 or .25 diamond paste on a cast iron lapping plate (which is how my tool room personnel use diamond paste) since I won't cut the lap...should I use an edge leading or edge trailing stroke?

Sorry to complicate things.

Dave

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Dave,
We have cast iron lapping plates in our shop as well. You do need to be careful of what was used on them before. Many shops use a dry or oil based diamond abrasive and roll them into the plates surface so they become embedded. If any coarse particles are already in the surface they will remain there and damage the razor.
I think I would make something from wood, balsa, etc... before goin that route if doing it myself.

Cast iron is used for lappping plates as it can be ground perfectly flat and it's porous surface holds abrasives very well. Kind of like balsa wood on steroids <g>.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Cast iron is used for lappping plates as it can be ground perfectly flat and it's porous surface holds abrasives very well. Kind of like balsa wood on steroids <g>.

Tony

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Tony,

...Maybe you should offer a four sided paddle with a couple of cast iron sides :cool:

Dave