1st Hone

I've been using my dovo 'special' from Tony Miller for about a month now (just stropping before every shave), and have had good results (Tony honed it for me before he sent it). However, for the last three shaves or so I have noticed some decline in performance, and so I decided to hone it. This experience has given me a few observations, as well as some questions.

First some background. I prepared my Norton 4K/8K previously (on a glass pane using fine grit sandpaper) and I feel fairly confident that it is flat etc; so I went ahead and soaked the stone in water for about 15min and started to hone. I started by making 10 passes (1 pass = up and down the stone) and doing the HHT. This didn't give a satisfactory result so I repeated the procedure (another 10 passes followed by a test). I had to do this roughly 3 times, but I never really got a good result; at least not as well as when I received it from Tony (it dragged too much as it cut the hair). I must point out that I tried to keep as little pressure as possible on the razor while honing. I also feel that because I was trying to keep pressure to a minimum that the blade may have lifted once or twice because it didn't feel well balanced on the hone. I think the lack of balance may be the surface that I place my stone on (the height feels a bit awkward).

I didn't want to hone too much, so I just tried stropping anyway. To my surprise the blade actually made a more consistent noise on each stroke on the strop. Before (when Tony sharpened the blade) I could get a good (i guess it's good anyway) 'scraping' sound (that's the only way I can describe the sound) in one direction, but not in the other (I'm applying very little pressure when stropping). I've also noticed that the blade seems to stick to the strop a little on the pass away from me (but not on the pass toward me).

After stropping and doing the HHT many times I decided to shave (probably not a good idea). The shave was very smooth and I had little irritation; however, the shave wasn't as close as it had been after Tony had sharpened the blade.

This leads me to the following conclusions:

• The blade probably isn't as sharp as it was
• The blade still has a fairly consistent edge because the shave was smooth (i.e., no catching or dragging)
• I need to balance myself and the blade better during honing
• I'm still unsure about how much pressure to apply to the blade, and where to apply it during honing
• I'm happy with my stropping technique

Can anyone comment on the above? In particular, I'm worried about the balance of the blade on the hone, the pressure I apply, and where to apply it (i.e., using fingers along the spine of the blade etc). :shrug:

Andrew.

I'm relatively new to honing so hopefully some of the honemeisters will weigh in too.

First observation: if your razor came from Tony, it probably doesn't need a serious honing because he supplies them ready to go. If you use the same razor on a daily basis, it may need just some light passes on the 8000 side. VERY light - use two hands but only use the one "off-hand" as a guide to keep the blade flat on the hone. If all you're using is the Norton and hanging strop, that should be enough to get good results. If you have a pasted paddle strop, go to the .5 paste after the Norton for a keener, more refined edge. Don't forget the X-pattern.

A member here explained to me that a good draw on a hanging strop is indicative that the edge is keen. If you're using one of Tony's strops, you should feel a draw. I believe that some, I said some, pressure is needed on a hanging strop to align the edge.

I like to use the armhair test because my hair is too fine for the HHT. Try the armhair test. Do the tops of the hairs pop and get cut off? if not, like I said earlier, try about 6 swipes on the 8000, then strop and test.

You said that you had no pulling, so the blade is probably very close to, or sharp enough to use. BTW, just a little FYI, if the blade feels papery after honing, it may be overhoned. If the edge feels papery, backhone the razor (spine first) a handful of times then start on the 8000 like I said earlier (edge first), then strop with paddle at .5 for 20 laps, or hanging strop for 30 laps (leather, not linen). It's important to test the razor periodically. As Lynn says, less strokes are better. It makes complete sense.

Good luck and I hope others will help you as well. (I hope I helped!!)

-Rob

Thanks Rob.

I used the X-pattern on the hone. I don't have a paddle. I do however have one of Tonys' strops and and I think that the 'scraping' sound I described is the draw you refer to (it feels good). I'm only using very light pressure during stropping so maybe I need ever so slightly more. The hair 'pops' during the HHT, but not as convincingly as it did when I first received the razor (a little drag). I'm a bit worried that I may have done too many passes on the 8K - I'm not sure what you mean by a the feel of a 'papery' edge though though :shrug: . Do you mean like when you pass your finger across the edge of a sheet of paper?

Anyhow, I've decided to rest the blade until tomorrow and try stropping again when I get the chance. I may try to apply a little more pressure this time. If this isn't successful, I may try back honing as you describe and start again on the 8K - this time following your recommendation on the placing of the free hand, as well as reducing the number of strokes.

Andrew.

Andrew, a papery edge feels just like it sounds - an edge that feels flimsy, like tissue paper. It sounds like paper when you lightly pass your thumb across the edge. Across, please don't do it parallel to the edge, unless you want a bloody mess :nono: .

Read all you can about honing and ask questions here on the site. Adjustme69 (Lynn) and randydance (Randy Tuttle) among others, are the masters of razor maintenance. PM them if you have to to get sound advice. Go to the help files. An important thing I learned is to assess what the blade needs. I first used to jump right into the pyramid, not knowing that all the blade needed was the 8000, and a few swipes at that. As a matter of fact, mine will ONLY need the 8000 from time to time because I won't let my razors degrade to the point where I need to use the 4000. The 4000 is for blades that are pretty dull - one's that won't shave worth a damn.

You sound like you're not too far from learning this skill. There is a learning curve - you won't get it overnight, so have patience. You'll eventually learn the best techniques. I learn something new here almost every time I log in.

I would suggest a pasted paddle strop to "touch up" the razors instead of going to the hone every time you feel slight pulling or discomfort. Some guys here may disagree with that methodology. If you ask three guys here a question, you'll get three somewhat different answers. Remember, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

-Rob

Ok, here is my two cents . . .

Tony uses pastes to sharpen a razor so your asking too much of an 8K grit to get the same result, atleast at your skill level. I imagine Tony is using .5 finishing, but he might be even using .25, which is like 50K and 100K I think respectively. For now see if you can shave with what you can maintain and see how it goes. You probably won't get a month out of the razor again, just a week or so then back to 8k for a few passes. At some point one pass on 4k should be called for.

Since I can't see your razor, here is a little blind opinion:

I haven't noticed this on one of Tony's strops only on other brands but sometimes they make a sound in one direction and not the other. With Tony's strops I get no sound and little drag on my razor. I think Tony does something special or uses high quality leather, its compressed better I think. I wouldn't worry too much yet about the one direction sound but someone else may let you know if they think one side is sharper than the other. If you accidentally used differing pressure, on either the hone or the strop you could get a sound variance. Its the fact that you have a sudden sound variance that worries me. I would if I was getting MUCH poorer shaves use more pressure slightly on the strop on the side that was making more noise and see if I could get it quieter. I might also use a few more strokes on the hone on that side. But, I'd do that only if I saw a problem under a microscope. Otherwise, to be honest, I wouldn't even worry about it. The sound may be caused by your lifting the razor on that one pass, or by dropping it on the hone on the flip, watch out for both issues.

If your determined to get the razor back where Tony had it, buy a paddlestrop from him with pastes.

I tried more stropping this afternoon (just on the leather). I made roughly 30 passes. I found that the sound was the same as a yesterday, i.e., equal in both directions, and there seems to be a reasonable amount of draw. The blade also seems to be sticking to the leather at the end of each stroke now. I was worried that I may have been dragging it back (i.e., an edge first movement) at the end of each stroke, which might explain the sticking sensation. So I slowed my stropping down and made specail effort at the end of each stroke and as I rolled the blade over the spine and found I got the same sensation. I also checked the strop for nicks or slight marks but couldn't see or feel any. As for the papery edge - it may be slightly so, but I can't say for certain.

Quote:

---

Its the fact that you have a sudden sound variance that worries me. I would if I was getting MUCH poorer shaves use more pressure slightly on the strop on the side that was making more noise and see if I could get it quieter.

---

I think you misunderstand me; I was getting the sound variance before (when Tony sharpened the blade), not sure why or what it means. Maybe one edge was a little rougher, maybe I was applying slightly less pressure one side than the other. Anyway, I get that same sound on both strokes (up and down) since I honed the blade.

I think your suggestion about sticking with what I have is sensible because I can at least establish some benchmark. I think I may stay away from the hone for at least one more attempt at a shave, and decide whether to go back to the hone then. My biggest problem for now seems to be a lack of understanding about what sounds and feels correct. I guess I have a steep learning curve. After a month of stropping though, I'm starting to feel more confident about my technique - honing is obviously going to take a while :( . I'm considering buying a cheap loupe from ebay to check the edge more carefully.

Thanks for the help so far and I will keep at it :) .

You can get a RS microscope for $10. If you had variance in the sound before I wouldn't worry about it. I 've heard a few people say the leather has a grain that causes that. Tony, himself may comment on it. I get the same effect, always have. Learning what all this feels like, leading to a sharp shaving edge is 99% of the goal. The other 1% is having a hone of the right grit. :-)

Been away for a few day but see plenty has been going on here.

I get the sound difference myself on most of my strops but not all. I do think it is the grain of the leather and the way the hair folicles run.

As for my honing I do use pastes 90% of the time to get razors ready right from the box. I start with 9 micron, then 1.0 micron, then 0.5 and 0.25. I start with 10-15 passes on the 9 and scale up to 40 or so on the 0.5 and 0.25. This works to get my Dovo brand razors shave ready. When I sold the Timor and Fromm versions I occasionally needed to use a hone as they just didn't come out of the box nearly as sharp even thought they likely left the same factory.

From what I read here you are experienceing what many of us did when we first started with a Norton. It takes time and practice to become eficient with one. Pastes are a faster road to sucess but I do feel both methods have their place and compliment each other.

Tony

Thanks for the replies. Thanks for your imput Tony, it's usefull to know how you got it in the condition it was in when I received it. I guess that If I ever got a pasted strop (maybe a paddle) I wouldn't need to use the coarser grits on a blade in this condition :shrug: . I will consider the microscope (but it will have to be one from the UK, and our RS is different from yours I believe).

Ok, I got a little impatient with the stropping yesterday since it wasn't really getting me very far, so I tried the hone again. I read up on the barbers manual again just for my own sanity. I back honed (heel first) for several passes (up and down for each pass) and started honing again (heel first). I started with some light pressure, and decreased it after the 2nd and 3rd passes, by the last pass I used virtually only the weight of the blade (or at least I tried to). In all I made 5 passes. I tried my best to pay carefull attention when rolling over the spine (not to bring the edge down hard onto the stone), and about how my free hand maintained the pressure on the spine of the razor. I also paid particular attention to keeping every part of the edge in consistent contact and tried to maintain the same movements up and down so that the x-pattern was symetrical. I made the movements nice and slowly. After the 5 passes I tried the moistend fingernail test and the edge passed very well along its entire length (it needed virtually no downward pressure to make it stick). I then stropped for 30 passes on the leather only. After this, the blade seemed to pass the HHT well. It seems to be popping hairs almost as consistently as when I first received it. I think it may need more stropping and I haven't shaved with it yet since I re-honed it. I will let you know how it does when I do. I don't think that my skill is anywhere near there yet with the hone (I know the edge could be sharper from what it was like when I got it from Tony) - much practice will be needed. I have to take things really slowly for now.

I guess there is always a spoiler in the group...when honing I never back hone a razor! If after honing the blade does not shave sharp(shaving is only real test...hair tests many times give false positives...) I go back to simple pyrimid 4000/8000...5/5 3/5 1/5 1/5 followed by 15 strokes on yellow codicle followed by 60 full strops on strop...with regard to hone height not being comfortable take folded towel place plastics norton case on it place norton on top of case..towel keeps stone from slipping and raised height of stone lessens tension which should result in a better stroke...by the way a properly honed razor with stroping after and before shaving should last minimum of 2 months...once you get proficient with norton 10-15 passes on 8000 will acomplish what the pastes will do but easier...

I'm pretty sure the HHT is only supposed to be used after you are done with the 8K side of the hone. I believe it was Randy who made sure to bring that up whenever someone talked about performing the HHT after every set of honing.

Search for the paper towel test by robert williams a.k.a. papabull. It is another test that you can do to determine sharpness of a cutthroat razor.

I dont understand the obbsesion with the hht test nor the paper towel test or the blue moon test...a dull razor will cut body hair and still give a poor shave...the only true test of sharpness is to shave with a newly honed and then stroped razor...

Once again, thanks for the tips guys. I think I agree about the HHT not being entirely reliable (in my experience so far - limited as it is). It seems a little dificult to quantify how well a blade passes the HHT, and as you say, it isn't the 'be all'. After the work I did on the blade last going off it seemed to pass the HHT convincingly, but I still had my doubts, so I decided to give it a shave and the results were very good. I am very pleased with the result, which is as good as I got when I first received the razor. I'll probably try the pyramid system eventually (maybe if I get a razor new or a project), but I'll stay clear for now since the blade seems to be in good condition and just use the 8000 - I know that this is a debated subject so I won't open that can of worms :rolleyes: . I guess the most important thing is that I learn from this experience so that I can somehow replicate or apply it somehow the next time. I will look for the paper towel test.

The problem with the hanging hair test is that so many people see it has a binary test unlike all the other "better" tests. What I mean by that is the razor either cuts the hair or it doesn't, test complete. Other tests are thought to produce more "information". Yet this isn't true. With experience the hanging hair test provides lots of valuable information. Its not whether the hair gets cut. Its how easily it gets cut, what sound it makes, how quickly the razor grabs the hair, and whether the hair pops off or collapses down, etc. Just like the other tests it takes time and experience to learn, and it has a valuable standing in your edge evaluation toolbox.

The info you have been given is right on! The only thing I would like to add is that after performing some back honing strokes be sure to follow that with 5 or so normal honing strokes.

With regards to the various tests. None of them is a "proof" of shave readiness, they are just an "indicator" and each of the tests require practice to get maximum value from.

It does sound like you are almost overhoned so stay away from the hones for this razor until you have to.

PS, yesterdayI overhoned a razor that had been shaving very well, I just couldn't leave well enough alone!:(


Your doing well,:)

All of us have overhoned a razor...but thats easy to fix! If you have honed a razor and feel you screwed it up lost sharpness ect...get out your4/8 norton do a pyramid no pressure onblade just weight ofblade onstone 5/5 3/5 1/5 1/5 then twenty roundtrip strokes on belgium coticle then 60 trips on leather strop...no linen and walah SHARP RAZOR...

Sometimes that works but not always. Next is the backhoning and/or you can use balsa wood or a wooden matchstick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clarman

All of us have overhoned a razor...but thats easy to fix! If you have honed a razor and feel you screwed it up lost sharpness ect...get out your4/8 norton do a pyramid no pressure onblade just weight ofblade onstone 5/5 3/5 1/5 1/5 then twenty roundtrip strokes on belgium coticle then 60 trips on leather strop...no linen and walah SHARP RAZOR...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by randydance062449

or you can use balsa wood or a wooden matchstick.

---

How is that done exactly? :thinking: :shrug:

X

Randy just curious if you backhone then do 5 regular strokes on a hone arent you back where you started?