Edge life before more than stropping is needed?

How long should a quality pro-honed razor's (Thiers-Issard "Le Grelot") edge last with only stropping before more measures (i.e. pasted strop/high grit stone) are usually necessary? Consider novice user with almost daily use and avg. beard.

I have been advised that the razor likely won't need to be re-honed until about 2 months of use. I have been at it for just under (2) weeks so I think I'm alright with just stropping for now. However, I want to have the appropriate gear on hand to keep shaving lest I have to return to that loathsome Gillette.

I know that there are differences in opinions, but for the novice is it generally recommended to get a 4k/8k Norton combo stone or a Chinese 12k to freshen up the razor? I have no present intention of fixing up antiques or ebaying and for the time being intend to leave the real honing to the pros if required.

So far so good Gentlemen, I haven't lost an ear or too much blood and truly enjoy the process and result. My grandfather and great-grandfather were old time barbers with a shop in Queens, NY...too bad I never got the opportunity to learn the techniques from them. Thanks for your wisdom.

I wouldn't recommend a full set of hones unless you are just into it.

I would think you could last a long time with razor, strop, and perhaps a pasted strop, or small swaty style touch-up stone.

I think that is how they used to do it in the "olden days".

I have built up a full set of hones just because I find it interesting, and like the "do it your self" part of straight shaving. I've been considering breaking out the Dremel and attempting a minor restore of a local antique shop straight if I find one.

I can see my interests progressing rapidly towards becoming self-sufficient in razor maintenance but for now I'm more concerned with trying to make sure I'm shaving with a good edge so that I can determine whether or not my technique is improving.

But as a wannabe wood worker and home improvement enthusiast I certainly do not need too much of an incentive to get more into the "do it yourself" aspect of straight razors. Thanks for the input.

If your just concerned with the short term needs and you catch the razor before it really starts to dull the easiest is probably a pasted strop. probably some CrO would serve well. Eventually you'll need the hone but that could be way over a year away.

10 laps on some Cox, 30 laps on strop and you should be good..hopefully, unless you really screwed up on your stropping...:D. I found SRD's strop paddle ... "forgiving". With that said, I have a 5/8/12 set from SRD to touch up.....

I shaved with a Dovo Bismarck nearly every day for nearly three months before it started to lose it's edge. About every week and a half, I did ten laps on the pasted strop and it brought it right back. I have a feeling that you'll be equipped to hone it yourself after that time based on your original post. Soooo...for right now, focus on shaving and begin to dig in a learn as much as you can about hones. In a couple months, you'll have an idea of what you want in the way of honing gear and then pick up a couple beater razors and begin practicing so that by the third month, you'll be confident enough to give your expensive razor a whirl.

Hi,

In addition to the daily stropping on linen/leather :

As a general rule, I give my blade 5 - 10 laps on CrOx after seven (7) shaves; after a month of shaves, they get 5 - 10 laps on a Naniwa 12k.

Each razor is different; for eample the TI C135 blades I have go on much longer with just stropping compared with some of the softer blades I have.

I have found, like many others, that 'little but often' maintenance works best.

As the individuals whiskers and razors are all unique, it is difficult to give a hard and fast duration for an edge; let your shave be the test :)

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

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Originally Posted by red96ta

I shaved with a Dovo Bismarck nearly every day for nearly three months before it started to lose it's edge. About every week and a half, I did ten laps on the pasted strop and it brought it right back. I have a feeling that you'll be equipped to hone it yourself after that time based on your original post. Soooo...for right now, focus on shaving and begin to dig in a learn as much as you can about hones. In a couple months, you'll have an idea of what you want in the way of honing gear and then pick up a couple beater razors and begin practicing so that by the third month, you'll be confident enough to give your expensive razor a whirl.

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Great idea to practice on beat up razors when the time comes prior to attempting work on my more expensive razor. That should remove anxiety and help to build some confidence. Thanks for your reply.

I'm getting the hint that "less more often is better than a lot too late" when it comes to maintaining the edge. I'll reach out for more advice when the time comes. Thanks.

While "less more often" sounds like great advice, I've only had about 6 shaves on my Dovo Special, so it's hard for me to differentiate "learning curve" from "starting to pull".

As a noob, I find that this really comes down to my stropping. I have 2 Dovos. The first one can shave, but hardly takes hair off now, even after some Crox. I screwed it up stropping poorly. The second one is still shaving well after a week, with daily stropping only, but I really have to watch my stropping. I think as my stropping improves, the length of time between touch ups will increase, as others have mentioned.

I have been diligent about stropping but yesterday morning I felt a little pulling which indicates it is time for me to take a further step to maintain and freshen up the edge on my razor. The ultimate result of the shave was still rather acceptable but considering my novice status, my threshold for "acceptable" is not very high yet. I have read the various advice posted here and thanks to all. I have placed an order and have the following items on the way:

Norton 4k/8k combo water stone;
Norton Flattening Stone;
Chromium Oxide - Semi-Paste - 0.5 Micron; and
Balsa Wood Bench Hone (I know I should have easily made my own but I had an itchy trigger finger online last night :gwh: ).

My plan is to use the Chromium Oxide w/ the Balsa wood - maybe 10 to 15 laps - to see if I can get my razor's edge to freshen up. If so, I will put away the Norton stone until more aggressive/comprehensive sharpening is needed. If more is needed, then I will consider using the Norton 8K to be followed by the crox. I will also pick-up in the future a higher grit stone but I wanted to limit the size (cost) of the shipment lest my wife take particular notice and commence her own purchasing blitzkrieg.

I really hesitate to contact my only razor with the Norton stone until I have an opportunity to pick-up a less expensive razor to practice with as advised above. In the meantime though, I still need to shave and will do what I need to do to keep up the edge on my current and only TI.

Any obvious problems with my plan? What else is recommended? Any advice in applying the Crox semi-paste to the balsa?

Thanks very much as usual.
Dan

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Originally Posted by ElChe

While "less more often" sounds like great advice, I've only had about 6 shaves on my Dovo Special, so it's hard for me to differentiate "learning curve" from "starting to pull".

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True words :)

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Originally Posted by DPMaltese

I can see my interests progressing rapidly towards becoming self-sufficient in razor maintenance but for now I'm more concerned with trying to make sure I'm shaving with a good edge so that I can determine whether or not my technique is improving.

But as a wannabe wood worker and home improvement enthusiast I certainly do not need too much of an incentive to get more into the "do it yourself" aspect of straight razors. Thanks for the input.

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Be careful give it some time. I went hog wild with honing gear and found out I don't need half the stuff I purchased. I would recommend the SRP modular strop with felt pads using 1 micron and .5 micron diamond paste or CrxO. Go slow.

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Originally Posted by red96ta

True words :)

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I get it. Thanks. :)

I know that the pulling I experienced yesterday is a function of poor technique or less than optimal blade sharpness or a combination of both. Regardless, I will have to freshen up the edge at some point. So I will forge ahead before the blade becomes dull (due to use or improper technique) and ends up requiring more effort to bring it back.

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Originally Posted by ShoreBird

Be careful give it some time. I went hog wild with honing gear and found out I don't need half the stuff I purchased. I would recommend the SRP modular strop with felt pads using 1 micron and .5 micron diamond paste or CrxO. Go slow.

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Funny, I was strongly considering the SRP modular strop. I have read good things about it. I will probably end up buying it soon. For my initial foray into refreshing the edge. I wanted to stay on the inexpensive side even though I understand the modular strop to be a good value. I fully intend to go as slow as possible and to take my time. Thanks for the advice.

Hello Fellow Long Islander,

I have been at SR shaving for a little under a year and bought some hones to maintain my edge. What I found out is that I have a hard time honing, so I leave that to the professionals. What I now do is refreshing the edge once a month on a paddle/balsa strop with chromium oxide. I made the paddle exactly as specified under the wiki tab and clicking "maintaining SR". Look under "making a pasted balsa strop". You will see how to make a home-made strop for only a few dollars. It works great. I wish I knew the person who published it because it does the job very well. Just buy some chromium oxide and you will be able to always have a sharp razor. If ever you need honing, maybe once a year, you can send it out to a professional. This will save you time and money. Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by DPMaltese

How long should a quality pro-honed razor's edge last with only stropping before more measures (i.e. pasted strop/high grit stone) are usually necessary? Consider novice user with almost daily use and avg. beard.

I have been advised that the razor likely won't need to be re-honed until about 2 months of use.

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I have to admit it, I feel sorry for newbs asking this question. The reason? The conflicting answers they receive.

One of the main problems is the fact that some do not consider the use of pastes as "honing" or touching up. Therefore when asked how long between maintenance the answer is months or even years. This can be true for the pros who have been doing this for decades (thinking of the "stropping is king" thread), but is completely unrealistic for new guys. They feel like failures if their edges do not last as long as the guys on SRP told them they would in the Beginners Section. I feel that it would be more responsible for senior members to advise them that edge longevity comes with advanced skill; a comfortable shave from a optimally sharp is definitely preferrable.

BTW - for the OP, DPMaltese:
It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for a daily shaver in the hands of a novice to be in need of some form of touchup (paste, barber hone etc) anywhere between 5 and 15 shaves.

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Originally Posted by red96ta

I shaved with a Dovo Bismarck nearly every day for nearly three months before it started to lose it's edge. About every week and a half, I did ten laps on the pasted strop and it brought it right back.

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If your razor didn't start losing it's edge for three months, then what was the point of hitting the paste every 1.5 weeks in that time frame?

Technically that's a touchup every 11 shaves or so, for a total of 8 touchups in three months....

When you are getting into str8 shaving, your technique is not quite there so you will probably end up dulling the edge faster than normal (sometimes after 2-3 weeks maybe). Once you become more proficient, this time will extend further and further into the future. I have heard that some can go without honing for as long as 1+ years.

Having 2-3 razors that are shave ready in your arsenal is not a bad idea...in fact, I would highly recommend it. It offers several advantages:

a) You can rotate between them, extending the life of the edges since they won't see daily use.

b) You will have back up razors when you send the rest for honing. With one razor, that is hard to do.

If, as you indicated, you intend to become self sufficient in razor maintenance, then there's never a better time to learn how to hone than now. BUT, before you take those shave ready razors to the stones, stop and get yourself some practice blades...The classifieds section is a good place as you can get good quality blades for $40-$60. eBay may be another choice. You want to get a few that you can learn how to set a bevel, sharpen, polish and finish. For this, I found the Naniwas to be great, easy to use, and affordable. I recommend the 1k, 5k, 8k, and 12k.

I really appreciate the recent advice guys, especially the words of wisdom and/or encouragement from jeffegg2, thebigspendur, red96ta, ShoreBird, vikingfan, Ryan82 and BladeRunner001.

I intend to proceed with the balsa hone pasted with Chromium Oxide semi paste from hand american. Based upon what I have read this should be sufficient to keep shaving for now. I will let time and experience tell me if I should ever contact my TI with a stone. I will however buy a less expensive razor to bring into my rotation for the reasons advised in this thread above.

vikingfan - its good to know there are some Long Islanders here. Too bad you have decided to leave honing to the pros. I would have gladly supplied a bottle of your favorite libation for a lesson or two :).

Quick question: using the chromium oxide semi-paste with balsa hone. How much and how is it applied? I know "less is more" but a little guidance goes a long way.

Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by DPMaltese

Quick question: using the chromium oxide semi-paste with balsa hone. How much and how is it applied? I know "less is more" but a little guidance goes a long way.

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I have only used the powder myself, but it is pretty much same shit, different pile. You don't need to cake it on, as a little goes a long way. What I do, as per ChrisL's instructions, is to paint thin X's on the surface of the balsa (as opposed to coating the entire surface), and you can smear it around if you like but it really isn't necessary as the act of stropping will do this as well. Let it cure for a day before use. Strop as you would with leather - SPINE FORWARD - and not like when honing (edge forward)

The next question you'll be likely to ask is how long will the coating last. I'm not sure, but I made mine almost 2 years ago and haven't had to reapply any chrome ox yet.

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Originally Posted by DPMaltese

I really appreciate the recent advice guys, especially the words of wisdom and/or encouragement from jeffegg2, thebigspendur, red96ta, ShoreBird, vikingfan, Ryan82 and BladeRunner001.

I intend to proceed with the balsa hone pasted with Chromium Oxide semi paste from hand american. Based upon what I have read this should be sufficient to keep shaving for now. I will let time and experience tell me if I should ever contact my TI with a stone. I will however buy a less expensive razor to bring into my rotation for the reasons advised in this thread above.

vikingfan - its good to know there are some Long Islanders here. Too bad you have decided to leave honing to the pros. I would have gladly supplied a bottle of your favorite libation for a lesson or two :).

Quick question: using the chromium oxide semi-paste with balsa hone. How much and how is it applied? I know "less is more" but a little guidance goes a long way.

Thanks again.

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I purchased the chromium oxide from Classic Shaving and applied it to the balsa (sanded flat) with approximately four to five pea sized drops on a 3" x 11" balsa. This was rubbed into the wood with a latex glove. I then wiped it down with a paper towel to remove the excess chromium oxide to the point where I could see some wood grain. This assured me there was a very thin coating left on the balsa.

I would only use this as a touch-up/refresh, since I am not good at using my hones. I would think I would have to use the balsa once a month, since it stays pretty sharp with stropping. I guess every one is different. I just don't want to over do it. I should, however, buy a cheap SR to practice. Someday, I should learn.

I'm sure the experienced SR users will have some better input, but I did find the home-made balsa strop listed on this site as really very good and cheap.

Good luck.

There are several answers to your question.

If you shave exactly the right way, and you strop exactly the right way, the usual advice is that you should get 50 shaves before a light honing is needed. To bring it back only a barber stone or pasted strop is needed.

If you strop wrong, or shave wrong, typically with too much pressure, the answer might be one shave. Unfortunately this is where we beginners live.

I personally strop with chromium oxide pasted canvas/linen and then leather each time. This brings the edge back after each shave, and tends to make the blade sharper over time, if it wasn't perfect to begin with.

Recently I've done an experiment that indicates that face honing (aka "shaving") improperly dulls a blade just as improper stropping does, so some remedial light honing on the pasted strop is not out of order.

I've mastered proper stropping (taut strop, no pressure downwards on the blade, just glide it), and now I'm trying to master shaving with the lightest pressure and correct angle. Once I've verified I'm not dulling my razor too much in shaving, I'll probably drop the daily use of the pasted strop and go to just canvas and leather or even just leather.

The single biggest lesson that I've learned over the last two months that applies to honing, stropping and shaving is this: Use what feels like no pressure downwards at all. This is particularly true for full hollow blades where the fine edge takes all the force. This lesson has resulted in much, much sharper blades before shaving.

Good luck on getting past this hump! We've all been there, and are climbing the same hill.

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Originally Posted by Alethephant

If you shave exactly the right way, and you strop exactly the right way, the usual advice is that you should get 50 shaves before a light honing is needed. To bring it back only a barber stone or pasted strop is needed.

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Sorry, but though your post has some truth to it, I have to disagree with the above statement. There are so many variables involved in edge longevity that no experienced member here would even care to venture a guess as to how many shaves you can get out of an edge before a touchup. I'm curious how you came up with that figure, as I've been at SRP for a while now and TMK I have never heard anyone use the figure of 50 shaves. BTW that would be expert territory (as in years and years of SR experience) to expect that kind of edge longevity, and no newb should have to feel that that is the rule rather than the exception.

Sorry, but I've frequently seen comments that a razor should be sharp for a couple of months before honing. This is even in the instruction sheet with the Dovo razor I bought.

It should be obvious, however, that time is not the issue, usage is. Letting a razor sit in a drawer for a year will not make it dull.

If you use a razor every day, "a couple of months" would translate into 60 shaves.

All I did was translate the usual advice into the right units.

I will agree that others do not seem to count shaves rather than time.

"It's not the years: It's the miles."

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Originally Posted by Alethephant

If you shave exactly the right way, and you strop exactly the right way, the usual advice is that you should get 50 shaves before a light honing is needed. To bring it back only a barber stone or pasted strop is needed.

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AHEM...Where did you pull this number from? when I first started 3 to 10 shaves was what I could get, sometimes more. Now, depending on the razor I can go more than 3 months and in many cases more than a year without a touch up other than linen and bare leather (no paste, no barbers hone)
To put a number on something that is really dependent on skill, strop quality, and razor quality seems a guess at best and dishonesty at worst.

I suppose then you should take this up with the (dishonest?) person who wrote the SRP FAQ: " How long will a razor stay sharp?

There are too many variables involved to give a definite answer (quality of razor steel, stropping and shaving techniques, etc.). The general consensus seems to be that a shave ready razor will, if regularly stropped on plain leather, shave comfortably for at least a few dozen shaves. After that, it will require resharpening.[25] "

"At least a few dozen shaves" suggests 30+. You will note I indicated in the best case, 50 shaves. This does not seem inconsistent.

You will also note that I indicated, if you do things wrong, you may get only one shave.

Apparently the argument here is what is the maximum possible shaves before honing is required. That is a different question from getting less shaves than that. Do you know of anyone who has gotten more than 50 shaves from a razor with no touch-up?

Again, time lapse is not the same thing as number of shaves. When you talk about using a razor for a year, are you using the same razor every day?

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Originally Posted by Alethephant

Do you know of anyone who has gotten more than 50 shaves from a razor with no touch-up?

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Yes. Me for one.

A few careful laps on chromium oxide pasted balsa and I think it worked like a charm for now. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Alethephant

I suppose then you should take this up with the (dishonest?) person who wrote the SRP FAQ: " How long will a razor stay sharp?

There are too many variables involved to give a definite answer (quality of razor steel, stropping and shaving techniques, etc.). The general consensus seems to be that a shave ready razor will, if regularly stropped on plain leather, shave comfortably for at least a few dozen shaves. After that, it will require resharpening.[25] "

"At least a few dozen shaves" suggests 30+. You will note I indicated in the best case, 50 shaves. This does not seem inconsistent.

You will also note that I indicated, if you do things wrong, you may get only one shave.

Apparently the argument here is what is the maximum possible shaves before honing is required. That is a different question from getting less shaves than that. Do you know of anyone who has gotten more than 50 shaves from a razor with no touch-up?

Again, time lapse is not the same thing as number of shaves. When you talk about using a razor for a year, are you using the same razor every day?

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I've been shaving with the same razor, every other day at the least for 8 months now. No touch ups, no pasted strops. The reality is it will last as long as it lasts, dependent on technique and whatnot. To try and quantify it exactly is an exercise in theoretical impotence. :banghead:

What kind of steel is it?

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Originally Posted by Alethephant

What kind of steel is it?

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I don't know. Its not stainless and most my blades that I use regularly are between 70 and 150 years old

After all the discussion goes away there is certainly something to be said for knowing that you can bring any of your blades back to life yourself.

Good steel and starting with a good edge helps quite a bit! That said, as many others have already said (and many more will), freshen the edge with a good leather strop until you have to go to the next level (felt strop). Stay with that until you need to sharpen it. That's where opinions will diverge wildly.

Some will say (me as well) that a 12K stone or Escher-type only polishes a blade, no sharpening will happen on them - they have their place in the sequence, but they won't sharpen edges unless you spend quite a while on them. Sort of like chopping a tree with a penknife, it'll happen eventually but will take a looooong time. I believe one has to drop to at least a 4K before real sharpening happens. Just a few laps will do if you catch it early, but a 4K then 8K then 12K then Escher, then CrOx strop, then felt strop, then leather and just about any blade comes back to life for me. Others will have different approaches.

Personally I believe that a bit of time in a HAD phase will benefit you in the end. If you decide to pick up some stones, have some talks with Sham (hi_bud_GL) or almost any other honemeister here and you'll save yourself from wasting $$ on stones or pastes that you won't use after you really get into honing. Develop or learn about a technique that seems comfortable for you and buy stones accordingly.

In any event it looks like you've gotten a ton of feedback in here - it's all good! ..and there is no single exact correct answer to the original question you posed. Good one to ask though!