made first straight razor!

Hello folks... I'm a bladesmith (Big Rock Forge - Scott A. Roush, Bladesmith) that forges camp, hunting and kitchen knives and I just tried a straight razor for the first time. I've never even shaved with one and obviously have a lot to learn. I will post pics tomorrow, but basically I started with a 1/2" x 3/16" piece of 1084 and put a hollow grind all the way to the from edge to spine on one side and and flat ground on the other. I put a 15 degree secondary bevel on the flat ground side with a 1" wide 220 grit belt to a wire edge then stropped with stropping board with jeweler's rouge. It just now occurs to me, as I'm writing, that perhaps I should have put a secondary bevel on the hollow side too! Anyway.... the sucker is sharper than anything I've ever made... it shaves arm hair effortlessly and cuts paper with just it's own weight. But it only shaves face hair OKAY. It does good on the side below the temples, but really takes some scraping for above the lips and chin.

So... since I'm new to both straight razor making AND shaving.... I now have at least two variables to contend with. Is it my razor or my technique? As to technique, all I can say is that I've been sitting here watching Youtube videos trying to learn.

By the way... this is very interesting from the perspective of a knifemaker. Really makes you think about edge geometry!

That is so cool that you can make your own str8. Keep us posted and I can't wait to see the pics.

Out of curiosity, why not a 6/8 instead of a 4/8 in width?

That's awesome man.

I will be waiting to see some pictures soon. :D

No offence, but honing a razor is nothing like sharpening a knife...I've been humbled more than once here on the forum by the pro's. So to answer your question is BOTH. Your razor is more than likely made just fine. Steel is good and I'm sure you put a good heat treat and temper on it. The razor just needs to be honed by a pro and learning to shave just takes time, practice, and patience. I've been honing razors for about a year now & do pretty well for myself, but I still haven't gotten that majical touch that the pro's have.

Welcome to a whole new level of sharpness.
It's required that a razor is far sharper than would be useful in a knife. Taking a knife edge to this extreme would in fact render it too delicate to be useful. As you've now seen, even a blade sharper than anything you've produced before simply doesn't "cut it" as a razor.

You should probably forget everything to know about sharpening knives in order to make progress with this. For a start, it is essential that you never create a wire edge.

Have a look at how to hone in the Wiki. It's a good place to begin. If you can be open minded about the honing process, you'll find you may well get a fantastic shave from a razor made by your own hand. Good luck!

Welcome and good luck with your project. :)

"put a hollow grind all the way to the from edge to spine on one side and and flat ground on the other."
Hmmm... sounds like you're headed towards a Japanese Kamisori rather than a traditional western straight.

From my limited understanding from reading round SRP the Kamisori has a flat side and a hollowed side like you are describing. The general concensus seems to be that they require quite different honing and technique (only the flat side is meant to go against the face). There some interesting discussion and video here . If your technique has been learnt from video it may be that you've been learning western shaving for an eastern blade.

Would be great to see some pictures. Razor porn is very popular round here.

Thanks folks!

Couple of comments.... I actually did get it to a wire edge on my belt grinder and then again on a 1000 grit water stone. It had a nice roll along the entire edge. But I wonder how well I'm stropping or if it is actually simply the geometry of the edge. For one thing, I did have a kamasori in mind, but I didn't take it the whole way. Right now it is flat ground on the side opposite of the hollow grind. The flat ground side should have a less pronounced hollow grind. And... as I said, I only have a secondary bevel on one side.

The other issue is that I put the flat side on the wrong side! I have to use the hollow ground side on my face.... This is what happens when you do something as a whim. But the bar of steel was laying there...

Anyway.. The plan is to take it back to the grinder, put a secondary bevel on both sides, re-hone and then see how it works. If that fails, I will hollow grind the flat side to attain a more true kamasori geometry.

So here are the pictures..... this is rough... i just wanted to do a test blade to see if I could get a working razor. If I accomplish this, I plan to do a friction folder with a piece of deer antler:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...shs/razor1.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...shs/razor2.jpg

Another thing I noticed from looking at these pictures... my edge is curved? I'm assuming that's from excessive wear on such a thin edge from using by belt grinder for honing.... another problem.

You really have your own grind there. Very unique. It looks more like a microtome than anything else.

Great looking knives

thanks folks...

I'm still planning to regrind.. will post pictures later.

Is that grind that unique though? I was looking at cross sections of the japanese razors and the only difference is the lack of the 'smiley' from not having the slight hollow grind on the flat side. But, hey! Microtomes are good cutters!

Anyway... this is just some fun and a break from giant bowies. But I would like to get a shaver...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottARoush

Is that grind that unique though? I was looking at cross sections of the japanese razors and the only difference is the lack of the 'smiley' from not having the slight hollow grind on the flat side. But, hey! Microtomes are good cutters!

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Yeah.. i can't really get a good bead on this grind. It looks MUCH heavier than the kamisori profiles I've seen, and actually (from the pics) looks a bit convex on the flat. This could be the pics fooling me though :shrug: What size wheel were you hollowing on?

>>> Anyway.. The plan is to take it back to the grinder, put a secondary bevel on both sides, re-hone and then see how it works. If that fails, I will hollow grind the flat side to attain a more true kamasori geometry.
<<<

PMFJI --

If I understand right, a kamasori (if it's like a Japanese plane or chisel blade) should have _no bevel_ on the flat side. All grinding is done on the hollow-ground side (unless a wire edge develops).

But that's related to the extremely hard steel layer that makes up the cutting edge. For your blade (which is evenly tempered), putting bevels on both sides might work fine.

As you say, there's lots to learn . . . <g>

Charles

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

If I understand right, a kamasori (if it's like a Japanese plane or chisel blade) should have _no bevel_ on the flat side. All grinding is done on the hollow-ground side (unless a wire edge develops).

But that's related to the extremely hard steel layer that makes up the cutting edge. For your blade (which is evenly tempered), putting bevels on both sides might work fine.

As you say, there's lots to learn

---

I would have to say that the japanese grind style is about the geometry they are looking for, and not a result of their heat treating (which should be proper on any razor for good results). There will be some degree of hollowing on both sides though. During honing, both sides will see some action as well.

okay... I've learned this lesson before with my cutting competition knives but it didn't carry over to my straight razor. Yes... it is 'heavy' compared to the other kamisory profiles. It's going from 3/16" thickness at the spine across only 7/16" of blade! So... I did as I suggested in the other posts and no improvement whatsoever. Therefore... I'm going to grind the hollow ground side to a thinner profile.

By the way... That picture does suggest a convexnessishness. But it ain't there in reality. If there is anything I CAN do.. .it's flat grind. And... I'm using a 8" contact wheel. What do other folks use??

I suppose it would be nice to have actually held a straight razor at least once in my life. But this is fun experiment.

Thanks again for all the input. Hang in there on this thread... a shaving tool might emerge at some point...

I understand about the photos not really showing all of the story about the flat grind ... :D

As for the contact wheels, for a 6/8 razor, I think using a 3" wheel would get it to be somewhere around a 1/2 hollow (in razor grind terms)... maybe a bit heavier. It's got to be fairly "wedgy" with an 8" wheel on such a narrow blade.

Another thing to keep in mind is that traditionally, straight razors are designed to be honed with the spine as a built in guide (i.e. laying the razor completely flat on a hone touching the edge and the spine.) so the heavier the grind, the more honing work will need to be done.

The big problem you are facing right now is that you are honing totally, completely, out-of-the-ballpark WRONG. 1000 grit is about the lowest grit you will use on a razor... finishing more in the 10K-30K range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottARoush

Hello folks... I'm a bladesmith (Big Rock Forge - Scott A. Roush, Bladesmith) that forges camp, hunting and kitchen knives and I just tried a straight razor for the first time. I've never even shaved with one and obviously have a lot to learn. I will post pics tomorrow, but basically I started with a 1/2" x 3/16" piece of 1084 and put a hollow grind all the way to the from edge to spine on one side and and flat ground on the other. I put a 15 degree secondary bevel on the flat ground side with a 1" wide 220 grit belt to a wire edge then stropped with stropping board with jeweler's rouge. It just now occurs to me, as I'm writing, that perhaps I should have put a secondary bevel on the hollow side too! Anyway.... the sucker is sharper than anything I've ever made... it shaves arm hair effortlessly and cuts paper with just it's own weight. But it only shaves face hair OKAY. It does good on the side below the temples, but really takes some scraping for above the lips and chin.

So... since I'm new to both straight razor making AND shaving.... I now have at least two variables to contend with. Is it my razor or my technique? As to technique, all I can say is that I've been sitting here watching Youtube videos trying to learn.

By the way... this is very interesting from the perspective of a knifemaker. Really makes you think about edge geometry!

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You may understand this better than you think.

Edge geometry is key to sharpening a razor.
Since a razor is honed flat on a hone the
equal bevel uniform width of the blade and thickness
and evenness of the spine define how sharp a
blade will get. An asymmetric shape like yours is
difficult to sharpen.

With knives many sharpeners have special jigs to set
the angle. A razor is its own jig!

Since many folk like wedge like blades you do not
need to grind the blade to a full hollow just a
very uniform hollow. A full hollow grind has a
couple subtle differences to stabilize the edge
that some research will uncover but not the details
that make the best razors so hard to duplicate.

Temper is a key challenge. A razor is harder and
more brittle than knives. This hardness issue is
a challenge for many. Power tools will often overheat
steel and wreck a razor where it might help a blade.

There are some great threads on this so a search will
uncover some good stuff.

Hint give attention to BOTH the bevel and the spine.

thanks Tom....

From what you are saying, it sounds like it would be better to do a flat grind all the way to edge, or a slight hollow grind with edge at same level as spine to allow laying the razor completely flat on the stone... but if you put on a secondary bevel, then you can't simply lay it flat on the stone right??? You have hone it at the angle in which you set the secondary bevel...

As to honing to finer than 1000.... I'm not sure I understand that. If you get a wire edge and then polish it off with rouge on a strop.. you've achieved what you need to achieve right? My understanding of japanese water stones is that you form the edge at the coarser grits and the below that it's a series of polish grits that simply remove the wire edge without stropping. I could be way off base, but that is my understanding of sharpening japanese swords. Having said that, I do believe that honing is my problem. But I have a feeling it's because of my screwed up edge geometry. I'm about to just start completely over and go by some actual dimensions of an actual western styly razor. I reground last night to what looks to me to be a kamisori... and it's worse if anything. Shaves my cheek hair great... but can't get the chin and mustache.

As to temper....Well I know my 1084 and I temper it to 400 which should be something like 58 rockwell which would be less than a commercial razor. but that's just a matter of ease and frequency of sharpening...not the actual quality of the edge according to my understanding. Also... I use a variable speed KMG set at low settings and sharp belt for putting the initial edge on with frequent water dips.... I've never had an issue with losing temper on the belt. But I've sure seen it happen!

Hi Scott,

Some help with the geometry:

Spine thickness: blade width is around 1 : 4, so the blade is around 4 times wider than the spine is thick.

My 2 razors - both around 5mm thick spine, one has blade width 20mm, the other 18mm.

I remembered reading about it somewhere - one of the custom razor makers - so I checked my own razors.

Good luck with the razor making (and using!), keep us posted with your progress.

Michael

Hi Scott and welcome to SRP...

A small hint here: The Forge - Straight Razor Place Forums

That is the section of the Forum we call the Forge, it is for people like you :)

All the Steel bangers hang out there, and there is a plethora of threads about making razors..

There are some very talented Razorsmiths here, a few came the same route you did by way of making knives, some are only Razor guys...
But one thing they all have in common is the love of sharp steel,,,and the one thing that all of them have learned either easily or the hard way is the Razors and Knives have very very little in common other than the steel...

The thought of a wire edge to a Honemeister is enough to turn our stomach, we avoid them like the plague, the thought of using any power to sharpen with is alien to us...

I highly suggest getting a professionally honed Razor to shave with so you can feel what an edge should feel like on the skin... to those of us that hone razors "Sharp" means nothing, anyone can do sharp, but sharp and smooth that takes talent...

The real difference is the Face Factor most every other sharpened tool is just that, a sharpened tool, a razor has to be dragged across your face... There is a huge difference in the minute differences at the edge...

thanks again!!

I might be miscommunicating something here... I guess I'm not using my machine to hone per se... just to set up the edge. I mean you have to use some kind of grinder to create the actual edge right? I just use the machine to grind an edge until I see a wire edge fold up, then I go to a stone and strop. If it is one of my working knives I would just polish the wire edge off and call it good. That shaves arm hair. If I'm making a skinner, I take it to a stone and strop. But it looks like my issue is that I don't have the stones to do a proper razor honing job. I'm doing some searching right now to see if I should invest in a finer grit water stone, or go the route of finishing with a stropping paste.

Anyway... Thanks for pointing out the maker's forum. I didn't see that or else I would've posted this thread there....

Nobody would doubt your ability to sharpen a knife. Many of us came here under the impression we knew a thing or two about sharpening an edge. You're going to progress far easier with this if you are able to approach this with an open mind as there is less common ground between honing a razor, & sharpening a knife than you might imagine.

Have a look at the Wiki.

The 1k hone is about where we'd start when restoring a damaged edge, so you're not going to get a comfortable shave from it.

If you are going to invest in finer stones, a Norton 4k/8k is an affordable option that will do you proud.

If you have a good range of pastes, you can get the edge you require from them. AFAIK there is very little knowledge regarding this method here though. We tend to use pastes to finish an edge. There are a fair number of chaps on the German forums that use pastes for the entire progression though.

I ordered the Norton 4k/8k! So maybe I'm getting on the right path. But now I don't have a razor to hone! I ground it down to a tang to use for making it a deer antler folder and I'm going to re-grind the other half in a more symmetrical, Western fashion... probably doing it hollow to increase the width of the thin cutting edge.

Thanks again for all the help... I don't mean to come across as a know-it-all because I'm a knife smith, I just learn by jumping into things and starting with what I know, and modifying as I go. I would probably get to it faster by doing more research.. but mistakes teach a lot more I think.

Another question... I'm still trying to get an understanding of the benefit of a secondary bevel. If you flat (or hollow) grind all the way to the edge, what is the benefit of the secondary bevel? It seems you would have a more aggressive cutting edge without the bevel. That is how my flat ground Scandinavian wood carving knives are done (I realize chin hair isn't wood!) Is it beneficial for the actual mechanics of shaving... or does it simply give the edge more resilience?

What secondary bevel????
I mean you could create one if you wanted to by taping the spine 1 layer of electrical tape for the final finish..., some of the guys do a secondary bevel but most don't...

BTW the "Average" bevel to spine angle is 16 degrees we did a ton of measuring on razors to find that...
The outside angles range from about 12 to 22 but most fall within 15-17


Edit: somehow I think you might be talking about a Bellied hollow in referring to a second bevel...

Here are some pics of different razor grinds

http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...ths_and_grinds

You certainly move fast Scott! Your enthusiasm is great. Glad you have plans to create another.
A single bevel allows you to create an edge that is both smooth & strong. Doesn't stubble have the same tensile strength as copper wire? The razor has to cut through, yet deliver a comfortable shave.
Look forward to seeing the next one.

I think the advantage of a secondary bevel as opposed to a flat grind is that there is a smaller area to hone. It is nice to have the relationship between the back of the razor and the edge form about a 16 degree angle, give or take 2 or 3 degrees.. It is like having a built in honing guide you lay it on the stone and your angle is automatic.

The Norton 4/8k is a good hone, it will get your razor shaving sharp. I do think that it would be a good idea to have a shave ready razor as a reference point so you have something to compare your self made razor to.

I like the looks of your razor. It looks better than my first, that is for sure. I am looking forward to more pictures.

come post in the workshop area

Charlie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottARoush

thanks Tom....

From what you are saying, it sounds like it would be better to do a flat grind all the way to edge, or a slight hollow grind with edge at same level as spine to allow laying the razor completely flat on the stone... but if you put on a secondary bevel, then you can't simply lay it flat on the stone right??? You have hone it at the angle in which you set the secondary bevel...

As to honing to finer than 1000.... I'm not sure I understand that. If you get a wire edge and then polish it off with rouge on a strop.. you've achieved what you need to achieve right? My understanding of japanese water stones is that you form the edge at the coarser grits and the below that it's a series of polish grits that simply remove the wire edge without stropping. I could be way off base, but that is my understanding of sharpening japanese swords. Having said that, I do believe that honing is my problem. But I have a feeling it's because of my screwed up edge geometry. I'm about to just start completely over and go by some actual dimensions of an actual western styly razor. I reground last night to what looks to me to be a kamisori... and it's worse if anything. Shaves my cheek hair great... but can't get the chin and mustache.

As to temper....Well I know my 1084 and I temper it to 400 which should be something like 58 rockwell which would be less than a commercial razor. but that's just a matter of ease and frequency of sharpening...not the actual quality of the edge according to my understanding. Also... I use a variable speed KMG set at low settings and sharp belt for putting the initial edge on with frequent water dips.... I've never had an issue with losing temper on the belt. But I've sure seen it happen!

---

There are two razor profiles that seem to work. The Japanese and the European.

The Japanese has one side almost flat and the other side has the bevel.
Honing is done with the back flat on the hone - both sides. The flat side
is almost flat... it has a hollow that has about a five to ten foot radius. This "flat"
side is thin welded high carbon steel at R-63+. Most of the honing and
grinding is done on the bevel side which is mostly softer supporting iron/steel.
Think 70 hone strokes on the bevel side and two on the flat side a lot
like a wood working plane but not exactly.

The European profile is symmetric because the steel is also symmetric the
thickness of the back sets the angle of the bevel at in the 11-14 degree
range. Older European razors include the frame back where a thiner
high carbon steel blade is held in a welded lower carbon steel frame...
these framebacks when well made made good shavers.

A hollow grind makes it possible to hone the edge to sharpness
within a lifetime. The harder the steel the more hollow is important.

The handle is also important for two critical reasons. One is grip
and the other one is hand honing and STROPPING. A big wide
handle will be difficult to roll the blade under the thumb while
stropping. You indicated the temper your were targeting softer
steel needs to be stropped a lot. You do not want steel so soft
that it needs to be stropped a dozen times per face or so soft
that stropping does not refresh the edge. Too hard and the steel
will micro chip and be almost impossible to hone correctly. The
grip/ handle should not interfere with honing or stropping.

I should mention that the wire edge is problematic for shaving.
A wire edge is fragile and in my opinion the source of most nicks
and cuts.

You mentioned "cutting" contests. Cutting and shaving are very
different. One involves a slicing motion the other a pushing motion.
Slicing leverages the micro teeth of carbides in many cases, shaving
on the other hand wants a smooth sharp edge that snips whiskers
and does not slice skin. Anyone sharpening kitchen knives knows
how difficult a ripe tomato can be to slice....you make tomato sauce
with a chopping motion and slice with a push/pull...

I noted someone making the great suggestion that you pick up a razor to
test drive. At the top of this page is the Classified section. You will
find a number of reconditioned old and antique razors. Look for the
phrase "Shave Ready" as a hint that the blade has been correctly sharpened.
A sound steel blade with ugly but serviceable scales (handle) can
some days be had for less than $70. Often these are described as
shavers or beginner budget razors.

Looking at the photo of your first blade pix, give a lot more attention to the
spine. Defects on the spine will eventually show up on the edge.
I cannot tell if you ground a warp into the edge or the heat of grinding
warped the edge or if latent stress in the steel caused the warp.
A warped (potato chip) edge is difficult to sharpen. If the blank is
warped from heat treating.... think hard before investing 100 hours grinding
and polishing, true it up first.

Lastly, grind wet if you can to control the heating of the steel
even buffing can ruin the final temper.....

And always have fun....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottARoush

I ordered the Norton 4k/8k!
...snip...
Another question... I'm still trying to get an understanding of the benefit of a secondary bevel. If you flat (or hollow) grind all the way to the edge, what is the benefit of the secondary bevel? It seems you would have a more aggressive cutting edge without the bevel. That is how my flat ground Scandinavian wood carving knives are done (I realize chin hair isn't wood!) Is it beneficial for the actual mechanics of shaving... or does it simply give the edge more resilience?

---

The norton combo is a good hone. Do lap it flat and remove the top
eighth of an inch from both sides. The way they make the Norton
often leaves bubbles and too much uneven binder on the surface.

Secondary bevels come from two common needs.

• Support of the edge
• Minimize the time on ultra fine hones.

Wood carving tools and axes are subject to a lot of stress. It is
common to round or multi bevel the edge to support the edge.

Straight razors almost never have a double bevel. However the
hardness of razor steel makes it common for some folk
to raise the spine/back by the thickness of one or two
layers of electrical tape. This places the smallest amount
of HARD steel on a slow cutting hone to give that last
little bit of sharpness. Also since bevels and hardness
differ some folk like to adjust the seasoning a little based
on their whiskers, face, hones, steel and preferences.
With modern steel and modern precision grinds this is less
interesting with new razors than it might be with OLD steel
and OLD grinds.

Schick, BiC, Gillette and many others commonly multi bevel their blades.
They do this because they can apply the inexpensive grinders to
shape the bulk of the edge and use the expensive ultra fine tricks on
the smallest amount of steel possible while running the continuous
band of steel through the machine at a constant speed. Their coatings
including Teflon minimize the drag from the uneven rough grind.
There is a lot of cost analysis and science behind the good blades
and too much marketing and market hype. Too often cost
wins over smoothness and quality.

wow... lots of great stuff!

FYI... almost all of my woodworking tools are chisel edges, flat ground all the way to the edge... more aggressive cutting and easy to sharpen. I also do my 'bushcrafting' knives that way. More edge chipping, but easy to sharpen in the woods. Axes are almost always convex ground... as you say.. to minimize chipping and maximize chopping.

Anyway... Great! this reduces the complication for me then...no secondary bevel.

You mention warping... there is no warping from heat treatment. What you are seeing is curvature which is something that I wanted to bring up in the maker's forum. After reading a lot of these comment though, I may have the answer. I'm using my machine to grind all the way to the final, as I say.. wire edge... and I'm getting an erosion of the steel in the middle as I always tend to put more pressure in that area and let up before I get to the tip. So it looks like I should use the machine to bring it down to something that has more thickness, then use stones to get the edge to sharpness. Does that sound right?

Hmmm... yes... it makes sense to keep the grind up to the spine even since the spine will be the 'guide'...

ha! you thought I gave up. I promise pictures tomorrow, but, like I said... I ground the blade of my first attempt into a tang and the tang into a new razor. This time I hollow ground on my 8" wheel to a scribed center line (I have a surface plate and a digital height gauge/scribe). Also I stopped grinding at about .5 mm of edge. I then quenched and tempered and went to my big oil stone. Starting on the coarse side I began drawing the blade flat against the stone trying to 'true-up' the spine and the edge. I did this for quite a long time until I had a 'sharp' edge. Basically this started flattening out my hollow grind... which looks like crap, but at least my spine is now a good guide for honing. Then I went to the fine side and then to 800 water stone then to 1000 water stone. I took it to the bathroom and shaved my entire face with one cut next to my ear. Now I wouldn't say this was the closest or most comfortable, but it was like using a disposable razor, say... for a third shave. And I got my chin and mustache whiskers without much of a problem. I expect to have my Norton 4000/8000 by friday... so I'm thinking I will have a butt ugly, but serviceable razor.

I may now switch this to the maker's forum because I now have a whole new suite of questions...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottARoush

ha! you thought I gave up.
...snip....
I may now switch this to the maker's forum because I now have a whole new suite of questions...

---

Yes it is good form to keep one thread on one topic.

You will find piles of info by searching in the archives...
You will find a Google "site" search to be productive.
Something like:

site: Straight Razor Place tempering
Or
site: Straight Razor Place pyramid

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

What secondary bevel????
I mean you could create one if you wanted to by taping the spine 1 layer of electrical tape for the final finish..., some of the guys do a secondary bevel but most don't...

BTW the "Average" bevel to spine angle is 16 degrees we did a ton of measuring on razors to find that...
The outside angles range from about 12 to 22 but most fall within 15-17


Edit: somehow I think you might be talking about a Bellied hollow in referring to a second bevel...

Here are some pics of different razor grinds

The straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki

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It seems that he is under the mistaken belief that the razor is hollow ground down to an edge. It is not. It is hollow ground down to a thin blade, then that is given a bevel and sharpened.

thanks a lot. I was definitely under that impression....