May Have Over Honed?

I bought my first SR off of the classified here on SRP, it was from a reputable member that has a honing service. I was supposed to be shave ready. My first shave was uncomfortable to say the least so I just assumed it wasn't honed right. I know now that probably wasn't the case. But at the time I didn't and I decided to hone it again. 4k/8k nortons not sure how many strokes. Still didn't feel comfortable so I decided to hone it again. 4k/8k norton using the pyramid method on wiki. It felt better ( and technique was getting better) but I still thought it could be sharper. So I honed it again 4k/8k nortons per wiki pyramid instructions. It seemed pretty sharp and I was starting to get better shaves but now I'm noticing small chips on the blade after stropping. I noticed the strop had scratch marks on it and inspected closer and saw the chips. I would appreciate any advise or thoughts as to why this is happening. Thanx

You could have chipped it when you were honing it . If you didn't think the razor was shave ready , you should have returned it , and got your money back from the seller . Maybe the seller will re-hone it for you . I don't think over-honing will cause visible chipping , but improper honing technique can .

Depending on you straight experience there could be a few answers. You could have honed too much and made the edge so fragile it started to crumble, or your honing itself did it or you got it that way. Obviously it will need to be rehoned so you might want to contact the honer and maybe he'll do it again for you.

Did you lap both sides your hone and bevel the edges the edges of the hone first?

I notice that when I get tired, I tend to be sloppy in my strokes and occassionally will tilt the razor on the stroke (thus, tilting the spline off the stone). If that happened to you and the edges of the hone weren't beveled then perhaps you chipped the edge.

I don't hone when I'm tired, and take frequent breaks to rest my arm and shoulders to make sure this doesn't happen.

But, I'm about as far from a honemeister as you can get. Realizing my limitations, I try to be very careful when I take a razor to the hones, and that I'm not tired when I do.

Kent

Another possibility that will chip or roll an edge is heavy pressure on the strop or hones.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Another possibility that will chip or roll an edge is heavy pressure on the strop or hones.

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Would honestly be my guess as well. Don't feel bad, I think most if not ALL of us used waaaayyy too much pressure in honing, stropping and the actual shaving when we first started. At least I did. :banghead:

In all of those activities anything more than the weight of the razor itself is risky territory.

Too much pressure on the hones makes consistency very hard but if you are consistent you'll get an edge that is actually a little thinner/weaker than is intended. Then when you go to the strop too much pressure makes that tiny tiny edge want to fold back and forth like a soda-pop tab...and just like a soda tab will eventually break off, so did your edge. (Maybe)

It's all speculative now, but wanted to take a chance at the "HOW" instead of just the "WHAT."

Again, don't feel bad. *IF* that's the problem...I bet we've all been guilty of it. Every single one of us.

Definitely contact the seller though.


Another possibility is a "dirty" strop. If it's got stuff in it big enough for you to "SEE" the damage I'm sure you'd hear it while stropping though.

When I get a jagged, chipped edge as you describe, I joint the edge on the 1K hone, then hone as usual on subsequent hones. Even though this works well for me, I must warn you that some question whether jointing is a good technique. So, proceed at your own risk!

When I joint, I lay the razor on its side at about 20 degrees above flat and drag the blade edge along the edge of my 1K hone one time. Then, I lay it over and repeat from the other side, elevated about 20 degrees. Each time I drag the blade edge across the edge of the hone I use very light pressure. Then, I feel the edge using the TPT. It must feel buttery smooth. If not I hone regularly a few passes, then rejoint the edge, repeating until it feels smooth.

Once I get the edge straight, then I hone to shave readiness as usual.

do you use your norton stones for sharpening anything else?Could the surface of them be contaiminated with other metal or something?

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I didn't send the razor back because after I started reading some of the other beginers experiences I came to the conclusion that the razor was probably hone properly but my technique was why I wasn't getting a good shave and by that piont I had honed it myself. I don't use the nortons for anything else and I did lap them with a flattening stone but I didn't round the edges. I also checked with a brite light for flat spots and a magnifying glass for chip after I honed. Everything looked good. So somehow during my stropping is when the chips occured. I guess at this piont I have to fix it. I saw the jionting technique which sound a little drastic for the size of the chips. Would laps on a 1k or 4k take away small chips? Should I back hone as discribed in wiki "fixing over honing"? Other then sending it out to be honed, what would be my best approach?

This might help

http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...tml#post694888

The first questions I would ask are

What brand of razor
What system of hones did you use
How many laps

I read the link you sent, thank you. If it takes that much effort to over hone I doubt that is the issue here. My inexperience is starting to become very frustrating.
To answer your questions the razor says White Swan on one side and the other says Ben. Wielputz, Los Angeles, Made In Germany. The hones I used are the Norton combination 4k/8k. My first attempt I did around 40 laps 4k and then around 40 laps 8k. My sencond attempt I did the wiki pyramid system, the aggresive one. I had a decent shave after this but felt it could be sharper. Third attempt I did the wiki pyramid system conservative method and when finished I did 100 laps on a arkansas translucent hone with oil. Each time I stropped with the canvas and leather strop. Brand new Vintage Blade 3" Latigo strop.

First thing you need to do is look closely at the edge under bright light and a 20x-40x magnification, this is the easiest way ...

You are looking to see what is actually going on at the very edge...

Actual over-honing like what you are describing will look like pieces missing from the edge. it will have a picket fence look, knocked out tooth look, to the very fine straight edge...
At the same time you have to make sure that the edge does not have Swiss cheese style corrosion if there is corrosion at the edge, you have to get past that first or you will keep having the same problem...

These two things present the same symptoms as what you are getting..

Let us know what you see, and we'll go from there... is there anyway possible to get a pic of the razor here?????

Trust me, we will either walk you through getting that baby sharp and shaving, or I will hone it for you on my Norton 4/8 so you can get an idea of just what is possible with that stone...

I didn't explain jointing above in detail because only a minority of us use the technique, and I didn't want to start some side controversy and derail your thread. But, you are frustrated, and your best attempts with pyramids and so on are not solving your problem. Even though the other approaches are sound, possibly jointing also offers you something that might help as well. So, let me explain the theory behind jointing a little more.

You said...

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Originally Posted by RazorX

... I saw the jointing technique which sound a little drastic for the size of the chips...

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This makes completely wrong assumptions about jointing, and the use of jointing. Jointing is gentle and mild, and very far from drastic!

Breadknifing removes a lot of metal, and is a blunt force approach. Jointing is a gentle lamb, barely removing any metal. Jointing removes metal, but after about 6 or 8 passes of regular honing your edge is as sharp as before. If 6 or 8 passes reestablishes your edge as sharp as before jointing, obviously the approach is quite minimal!

If you held the blade straight up and down while jointing, the weight of the blade on the edge, even though not great, does remove metal from the edge to a moderate degree. But, when you lay the blade almost flat, at about 20 degrees elevation, the physics greatly reduce the weight of the blade in the vertical direction. I would estimate that the downward pressure of the blade against the hone to be about 1/4 of the weight of the blade.

Now, think about an edge that is jagged, with microscopic dips and valleys. When you drag the blade along the edge as described above, you nip off the mico height hills and when done the distance between hills and valleys is less. You have a straighter edge. You have an edge that will hone faster the rest of the hones. I believe jointing oftentimes saves honing time instead of costing you time.

After jointing, I feel the edge with the TPT. It needs to feel very smooth. If not, I joint again. I rarely takes more than one jointing, and even more rarely two jointings.

Then, I hone about 6-8 passes and retest using the TPT. If it doesn't still feel smooth, I rejoint. By alternating jointing with honing, I am reworking the bevel and the edge, making the edge absolutely straight, and removing all instability in the edge.

At times, just honing seems to fix a problem that returns in the form of burrs and irregularities as you continue up the hones. When I started honing, this reappearance of the burrs and scratchiness and irregularity of the edge was very annoying. When I started jointing, I found a way to quickly reestablish a straight robust edge.

For the sake of argument, let's assume jointing is a bogus technique. If so, the mildness of proper jointing is such that at the least, you are slowing yourself down only the 6 to 8 additional passes on the hone required to reestablish the sharpness before jointing. If it takes more than that, in most circumstances, I believe you are jointing incorrectly.

At worst, jointing might cost you a minute or two. At best, it is exactly what you need to quickly correct your problem and avoid the problems you are experiencing with your final hones.

Thanks guys, Larry thanks for clearing that up about jionting. Please bare with me this is all new to me. I apologize if I jump to any conclusions.
I posted some pictures of the problemed area. I see three chips within an inch of the end of the blade. From what I can tell the rest of the blade looks ok. Glen, I don't have a 20x-40x mag but I'll work on getting one.

Jointing, as I described above, is not your answer to chips that big. Jointing addresses irregularities in the blade edge too small to see. Microscopic chips and dings if you will.

With the chips you have, I would first worry about your strop or whatever caused the chips. But, moving on to how to fix that problem...

I would breadknife the blade on a plain old whetstone like you buy at a hardware store. Then, would work thru the DMTs - 220, 325, 600 and on to the Naniwas. I am sure there are other approaches equally workable.

I disagree.
I don't think you should breadknife the blade. The only time breadknifing MIGHT be called for is when a chip extends far beyond the bevel but I don't even do it then. If you breadknife that blade you are just creating more work for yourself.

Hone the razor with your lowest grit and hold the razor so that the spine is well above the hone, holding the blade at 10 to 30 degrees above the hone. Tape the spine if you have trouble keeping the spine off the hone. Do circles until the chips are no longer visible and are not detected by the thumb nail test and then go back to normal honing to set the bevel.

I doubt you have a series of DMTs or Naniwas. You mentioned using a Norton 4k and 8k, do you have anything lower?

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Originally Posted by RazorX

lso I just assumed it wasn't honed right. I know now that probably wasn't the case.

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Assumption is the mother of all ****-ups

I have 220/1000 norton wet stones as well as the 4k/8k. Would you start with the 220 or the 1000?

Not meaning to complicate things but anybody else think that stabiliser is close to becoming a problem ?

Those chips are large , but I don't they're deep enough to compromise the stabilizer . Judging by the damage , the toe of the razor must have been dragged down the edge of the hone at the end of a
stroke . Honing out those chips will not be quick or easy .

Don't do anything...You seem relatively new to this whole thing...I'm thinking this was your first str8 shave...? The blade probably was shave ready to begin with, and you may have damaged it trying to hone it...The fact that you think it got better, may have been physcological...I could be wrong...It's hard to tell in the pics, but the blade looks oxidized to me...The bevel needs to be reset, Don't breadknife it, that's not needed...
I highly recommend sending it off to a Honemeister, let him hook it up for you, then they'll be no doubt....

When you get it back, and you think it's not shave ready, Don't do anything to it...
Have someone with experience evaluate it for you, or contact the honemeister...