What's good in SR?

So I am trying to get a good lay of the land and I see a lot of talk about razors that are 'good shaves' and 'great shaves.'

1st Question:

After a razor has been constructed with a certain degree of competence, isn't the degree of how 'good it is' mostly a degree of who last honed it?

And doesn't the hone have FAR more to do with how well it shaves than the razor itself?

So doesn't this make the selection of a razor really primarily a cosmetic and decorative question? (Again, after the razor passes a basic threshold of sound construction.)


2nd Question:

What is the range of expertise in honing? Is honing a simple skill like learning how to do laundry? Once you do it well it's clear what 'good' is - i.e. if your clothing is clean you did a good job. Your blade is really sharp so you hone well... No one really outshines someone else in doing the laundry.

Or is honing a real art like painting. One person paints well - but some rare genius elsewhere paints even better. Which would mean there are a few isolated honing experts whose blade work is always a couple of heads above everyone else's. And getting really good at honing is a long and tough road.

So, in short: Honing - a simple skill or a complicated art?

Thanks in advance for any wisdom you can throw my way...

Seth

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seth

So I am trying to get a good lay of the land and I see a lot of talk about razors that are 'good shaves' and 'great shaves.'

1st Question:

After a razor has been constructed with a certain degree of competence, isn't the degree of how 'good it is' mostly a degree of who last honed it?

And doesn't the hone have FAR more to do with how well it shaves than the razor itself?

So doesn't this make the selection of a razor really primarily a cosmetic and decorative question? (Again, after the razor passes a basic threshold of sound construction.)


2nd Question:

What is the range of expertise in honing? Is honing a simple skill like learning how to do laundry? Once you do it well it's clear what 'good' is - i.e. if your clothing is clean you did a good job. Your blade is really sharp so you hone well... No one really outshines someone else in doing the laundry.

Or is honing a real art like painting. One person paints well - but some rare genius elsewhere paints even better. Which would mean there are a few isolated honing experts whose blade work is always a couple of heads above everyone else's. And getting really good at honing is a long and tough road.

So, in short: Honing - a simple skill or a complicated art?

Thanks in advance for any wisdom you can throw my way...

Seth

---

Seth
it is kinda catch 22.
in your first question you are asking everything depends on honing.
Sorry to say it is not 100 correct.
may be 50/50.
if your razor is low quality example paki then honer cannot put the edge to the blade.
lets say honer doesn't know what he is doing and you give to him the best shaver anyway he cannot hone the blade and blade will not shave.
i hope you get it what i am saying.
Second question.
i think Person need to have patients and right tools to learn how to hone.
Again if you have 4k blade as you final finisher doesn't matter what you do that blade will not shave as you like.
honing as simple as it could be. just some people have patients and willing to learn.
Some won't listen others just doesn't have patients etc. so on.
hope this helps. gl

Wow! Did you ever ask loaded questions?!?!?!

First, though the quality of the shave IS affected by the honing, the quality of the razor has a dramatic effect on the quality of the shave. The grind and the character of the steel do impact the what kind of edge the honer can produce. No matter the skill of the honer, the grind and steel can be limiting factors in how good the edge is and remains. In short, the razor DOES make a difference.

Second, there is a huge range in expertise. I've been honing and using straights for about 8 years. I still feel like a beginner at honing. I keep trying to get better and keep experimenting with hones, but I know/hope that I can get better with more practice and experimentation. In my opinion, there is no "good/not good" threshold for honing. You can get pretty good fairly quickly but it takes a long time to get really good. It is not complicated, but it is also an art. In short, it can be both simple and complicated depending on how far you want to go with it.

I too also wonder about the differences between razors. For example, a Wade & Butcher and a Livi razor. Would they both, given identical honings, provide equally good shaves?

As for honing, I'm a beginner, but my understanding leads me to think of it not like doing laundry, but baking cookies. Some people just can't do it, most people can do a decent job with practice and effort, and then there's the Martha Stewart's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by goaT

I too also wonder about the differences between razors. For example, a Wade & Butcher and a Livi razor. Would they both, given identical honings, provide equally good shaves?

.

---

No it will never will be same .
Even if you take 2 same brand razor you will find a little differences between them

I agree with the 50/50 comment ... the better the blade and the better the hone, the better the shave. I do believe that a decent blade with a good hone will do just fine ... better than a good blade with a decent hone. I would suggest that the quality of the blade places a limit on the quality of the hone, but most "solid" Solingen, Sheffield, Sweedish, Spanish and American blades will provide the basis for a good edge/shave if the hone is well done.

Also a lot to do with personal preference and "how" you shave ... I have begun to notice that I personally shave better with the hollow grinds than with wedges and quarter grinds, and that I have better maneuverability and results with a medium size (5/8 to 7/8) rather than a 4/8 or 8/8 ... so while I may have a very good giant wedge that is well-honed, MY results may not be optimal because it may not match how I shave as well as a medium-sized hollow grind. You find these things as you experiment, because my guess is that we all shave a little differently based on intuition, experience and what we've learned. So ... while the honemeister is KEY, the quality of the blade is very important, and matching the kind of blade to your personal preferences also plays a more subtle role.

Trying for a short answer here:p

1. its about 50/50 but honing might be the determening factor

2. its both as there is skill and theres magick

I'm sure many of us here can write a book to answer your questions. In short form everything plays a part in getting a superior edge on a razor starting with the composition of the metal, the heat treating and tempering, the grinding of the blade, the stresses in the metal, the person honing the edge, the hones used and the type of day the honemister is having. Honing is not like doing the laundry but more like tuning a race car's engine. Given the perfect metallurgy and heat treating the results obtained may be better for anyone with some experience to obtain. From what I have seen everyone has their own style of honing with different degrees of success. In the end it's not the tools that are being used but how they are used to get the most out of any given razor. What is great results to one person may not be perfect for another. The sign of a good razor and a good honemister is how often they can obtain quality results and how consistent their results are.

The important answer is that there is no real relationship between cost and shaving ability.

A used $20 razor will shave just as good as a $1000.00 beauty as long as it is good steel, and has been honed properly.

Of course the $1000.00 shave should feel much better!! hehe.

Enjoy!...:beer2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seth

What is the range of expertise in honing? Is honing a simple skill like learning how to do laundry? Once you do it well it's clear what 'good' is - i.e. if your clothing is clean you did a good job. Your blade is really sharp so you hone well... No one really outshines someone else in doing the laundry.

Or is honing a real art like painting. One person paints well - but some rare genius elsewhere paints even better. Which would mean there are a few isolated honing experts whose blade work is always a couple of heads above everyone else's. And getting really good at honing is a long and tough road.

So, in short: Honing - a simple skill or a complicated art?

Seth

---

It's a bit like baking bread rather than doing laundry or painting masterpieces. You can't really leave out any of the ingredients (good steel & good hones) or neglect the process (forging or honing) & higher quality ingredients will make a difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jeffegg2

The important answer is that there is no real relationship between cost and shaving ability.

A used $20 razor will shave just as good as a $1000.00 beauty as long as it is good steel, and has been honed properly.

Of course the $1000.00 shave should feel much better!! hehe.

Enjoy!...:beer2:

---

Jeff is bang on here Seth, which answers your first question, I use a $10 Gotta I found in a secondhand tool store and it beats all my other razors hands down, hanging hair test no worries. As for the second question, a bit of patience and willingness to work out what you did wrong if it doesn't shave well and you'll get there. A technique that works for one person wont always work for another. Youtube it like a son of a gun to check the different ways of honing and stroping and mash your own style out of it Grasshopper:)

Go to the WIKI....you will find a list of recommended good blades,and a list of bad blades. I will only comment on Modern manufacturers here. As far as Dovo,Thiers Issard and Boker go,the basic blades are all fine blades.Good carbon steel and good workmanship. The more the ornamentation and higher grade materials,the higher the price but the shave is pretty much the same(good) . All are good shavers though(I only speak for carbon steel not stainless sorry).After that,you should always seek a good honemaster to put a shave ready edge on it.Never assume that a factory edge is shave ready unless you really know the maker well..........................................As far as honing goes.READ THE WIKI AND PM SOME REPUTABLE HONEMASTERS HERE FOR QUESTIONS.I just started honing and the best advice I can give to you is ,TAKE IT SLOW AND EASY AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT BEVELING FOR NOW. Yes it's skill like anything else,but anybody with a little patience and persistence can do this.Just don't get caught up in the technical sea of confusion for now.Remember this.....before there were fancy strops and pastes and treatments etc. all there was ,was a blade,a brush,a strop,a mug and soap and a small hone for touch up.This is a primitive art and you can either make it simple and efficient or as complex as you want to......Hope this helps and Merry Christmas:):)

P.S. Unless you have someone with you to help,stay away from e-bay till you know what the lay of the land is.:):)