Another Beginner: When stropping isn't enough? Hones/honing?

Hey all!

I have been interested in straight razor shaving for a while now, but have been too intimidated to post here and buy equipment necessary.

However, a couple weeks ago i was buying my mom a new set of kitchen knives at our local cutlery store. I figured, heck, i'm spending $450 on knives, i may as well ask if they'll give me a deal on the cheapest straight razor. I walked out with a cheap Dovo solingen delrin handle straight razor, and a short Bismarck canvas strop/canvas both for $70.

I've been self-educating and youtubing, and have been shaving with it for about 2 weeks now, and feel somewhat comfortable with it, though not with the results. I'm 18, but i've received the hairy genes from my mother's side, so my beard is dense and grows annoyingly fast, one of the motivations for switching to straight razors.

I've been experimenting with technique (pressure, angles, etc), and i have improved somewhat since my first shave. however i am still getting a rather rough and unsatisfactorily close shave. I'm sure some of it is due to technique, which i figure i'll eventually get better at. I'm not sure if my razor is sharp enough.
I've watched plenty of videos on youtube about stropping technique, and i'm fairly certain i'm doing that well enough (there is always room for improvement.).

As far as i can tell, my razor fails the hanging hair test miserably. It'll snip a stiffer hair if coaxed, but it doesn't pop with gravity alone as seen on youtube. Would further stropping/better technique/ canvas stropping bring it to as sharp as it needs to be for a better shave?

I also have powdered Chromium Oxide, Aluminum oxide, and several bench strops (I've got an entire flank of leather, and a 1"x4"x5' in the garage). could i use a loaded strop to take the edge sharper? or would that do more harm than good?

My mother and brother bought me a pre-shave kit for Christmas from The Art of Shaving, which came with: pre-shave oil, a good sized jar of shaving cream, a badger brush, and after shave balm. I am going to try it out tomorrow, and It seems like a lot of work http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/im...ies/tongue.gif.

I am into sharpening my pocket knives, and like to maintain hair-whittle edges on them. recently I've been oogling spyderco's 2x8 F and UF bench stones for a while, for my other knives to replace my makeshift sharpening setup (M, F, UF rods on the base of a sharpmaker, since i do everything freehand now). Are they fine enough, or otherwise suitable to hone a straight razor?
I don't like the work involved with water stones (soaking, lapping, price), which is why i'm looking at ceramics.

As i understand it, honing shouldn't be necessary more than a couple times a year, so i'd like to have hones that could serve other purposes. Now i've got christmas money for it, but not a whole lot.

I welcome any tips or advice you all have,

-Siddhartha

thanks for reading!

Chances are your Dovo needs a bit more than stropping. At least any Dovo I've seen that came straight from the factory needed it.
If I were you I'd send the razor out for honing to somebody who's good at it. You can also get another shave-ready razor from such a person, but that'll probably cost you a bit more than honing the one you already have.
If you insist on figuring it out yourself look at the wiki pages and the honing section on the proper way to hone a razor. I've never used spiderco hones, but other people have. AFIK the way they cut depends a lot on how they're lapped, so that's an extra variable, but generally you would set a bevel on a ~1k grit level hone, then refine the edge on a ~4k grit level and then ~8k grit level, at which point, if everything was done right, it should be pretty good shave.

I've only been around here about 6 weeks, but I've gathered a few tidbits of info. My guess is that your razor was not shave ready when you purchased it. Stropping an unhoned razor is not going to make it shave ready and honing a SR is nothing like honing a knife. Stropping is for maintaining the edge between honings. Your best bet would be to look up one of the many honemeisters here on SRP and have them work their magic on your razor.

I noticed you commented that the shave prep takes a lot of time. That's one of the reasons many of us have chosen SR shaving. It forces us to slow down and enjoy the shave, in an otherwise hurried world.

So, just because i don't have any other option, i decided to give stropping another try after reading a lot of the wiki.

I sped up my strokes, and went to about 60. now a head-hair is catching with the weight of gravity alone, instead of just sliding off. my head-hairs are extremely thick, so this might have something to do with it. i feel like the gentleman i bought the razor from might have put an edge on it. he told me he occasionally shaves with a similar dovo himself (though he carries much nicer razors).
either way, there is definite improvement with brisker and longer stropping, but my hand is cramped up. do you see this going anywhere, or does it definitely need a honing?

Oh, i do have spyderco Ultra Fine rods for my Sharpmaker. would it be worth a try to hone it with the rods on the flat of the base (as shown on the instructional dvd for straight razors)?

I would definitely suggest getting it honed by a pro. This way you will know that if there is a problem it isnt the razor. Check the classifieds, there are plenty of people to help you!

I'm a little reluctant. while i see the benefits of having someone touch up the razor, who knows what they're doing, it is a $30 task, which is half what i payed for the razor in the first place, and half the cost of a 3x8 UF or 1/3 of a norton.

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Originally Posted by dnullify

I'm a little reluctant. while i see the benefits of having someone touch up the razor, who knows what they're doing, it is a $30 task, which is half what i payed for the razor in the first place, and half the cost of a 3x8 UF or 1/3 of a norton.

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Yes, you're paying mostly for the skill, and much less for the equipment, although if you want to, your razor probably can be finished on a $500 rock. As I said, do some reading, try it yourself, and if you're happy with the results you've saved yourself $30. May be if you stick with that, at some point in the future you'll experience another edge and you'll either be glad you saved your $30 or feel really stupid for cheaping out, there's no way to tell at this point.

Everybody who has gone through the process will tell you that you're better off spending the money, but at the end of the day it's your decision and your face.

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I also have powdered Chromium Oxide, Aluminum oxide, and several bench strops (I've got an entire flank of leather, and a 1"x4"x5' in the garage). could i use a loaded strop to take the edge sharper? or would that do more harm than good?

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You're resisting the suggestions to send the razor to someone else. I can understand that kind of pig-headedness.<g> You _can_ develop the skills you need to get the blade sharp yourself.

A purist would avoid CrOx, and hone on progressively finer stones until the edge was "shave ready". We're not all purists.

The deal with loaded ("pasted", we call them) strops:

1. Yes, if an edge is almost right, a CrOx-pasted strop may bring it all the way to "shave-ready". I suspect that it's the _cheapest_ way to turn an "almost-shave-ready" edge into a "shave-ready" edge.

2. The disadvantage of that operation is that the edge will have two angles on it (it'll have a "compound bevel") -- one set by the honing stones, and another one (at the very tip) set by the CrOx pasted strop. The lighter the pressure you use on the pasted strop, the closer that secondary bevel will be to the main (hone-set) bevel.

After CrOx has done its job, you should strop on plain leather (for many shaves) until the edge begins to dull once more. Then use the CrOx strop again.

Eventually, the CrOx strop won't bring the edge back. _Then_ you need to hone on a rigid surface -- a stone -- to get back to a single bevel.

One source for this technique:

http://www.whippeddog.com/upld/Strai...ing_Manual.pdf

See the section on "Abrasive Stropping".

And another thread from this site:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...xperiment.html

There's also material in the Wiki on pasted strops.

Charles

I'm going to see if there are any services available locally that know what they're doing. I live in the bay area, CA; there is bound to be one.

I have experience in sharpening, polishing, and refining edges of knives, so i figured i'd give it a shot learning to hone straight razors. since i want to get a finishing hone anyway, and it's not a particularly expensive razor i'd give it a shot myself. if i fudge it up, i guess i have no choice but to send it out.

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

You're resisting the suggestions to send the razor to someone else. I can understand that kind of pig-headedness.<g> You _can_ develop the skills you need to get the blade sharp yourself.

A purist would avoid CrOx, and hone on progressively finer stones until the edge was "shave ready". We're not all purists.

The deal with loaded ("pasted", we call them) strops:

1. Yes, if an edge is almost right, a CrOx-pasted strop may bring it all the way to "shave-ready". I suspect that it's the _cheapest_ way to turn an "almost-shave-ready" edge into a "shave-ready" edge.

2. The disadvantage of that operation is that the edge will have two angles on it (it'll have a "compound bevel") -- one set by the honing stones, and another one (at the very tip) set by the CrOx pasted strop. The lighter the pressure you use on the pasted strop, the closer that secondary bevel will be to the main (hone-set) bevel.

After CrOx has done its job, you should strop on plain leather (for many shaves) until the edge begins to dull once more. Then use the CrOx strop again.

Eventually, the CrOx strop won't bring the edge back. _Then_ you need to hone on a rigid surface -- a stone -- to get back to a single bevel.

One source for this technique:

http://www.whippeddog.com/upld/Strai...ing_Manual.pdf

See the section on "Abrasive Stropping".

There's also material in the Wiki on pasted strops.

Charles

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thanks for the info. i think i'll stay away from CrOx for now...
What exactly does news paper do?

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Originally Posted by dnullify

What exactly does news paper do?

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Depends on the newspaper, or to be more precise on the ink. In the days of old it contained iron oxide as a pigment, so that abrades steel at a reasonably fast rate.

Wow, that's quite interesting!

How about today?

Nowadays a lot, but not all, of the inks are different, usually dye based, so it depends.

crud.
I noticed a black spot on the middle of the razor today. I've been oiling my blade with mineral oil, but i must have forgotten last night. is there any way to repair it?

Crap, there used to be a member in sacramento that honed for a decent price, but it looks like he took his ad down.

I know as an experienced sharpener that its hard to send something out for someone else to sharpen, but this first time it really is worth it. Shaving with a straight and sharpening a straight both take awhile to learn, (even for the experienced sharpener). For a beginner, there are so many aspects of technique that influence the quality of shave, you don't want to have the possibility that maybe the razor isn't sharp. You really want a razor you know is shave ready, so that your focus can be entirely on technique. By the time your razor will need its first honing, your technique will be solid and you will be able to judge the quality of your honing work.

I called the store i bought it from, and the gentleman said he touches up the dovos he sells on a 8000 waterstone (but nothing further) before he sells them. He told me that mine might have been on the shelf for quite a while and handled, so it might need a few laps on the canvas.

I decided to give it a shot on news paper over a block of wood. Holy cow! that sure worked! it's popping my mother's thinner hairs close to what i've seen in hanging hair test videos. newspaper actually works.

is working because it's abrasive, or because stropping on a hard surface is straightening out the burr?

The main effect of stropping is straightening the slightly dented edge the razor gets when shaving. The edge starts like this: | and after shaving gets a little like this: J. Stropping gets it back to the |.

My understanding is the carbon in the newspaper ink does act as a slight abrasive, which helps as well. Some people buy carbon powder lubricant (used for locks) and lightly coat their regular strop with it to achieve the same effect.

So i'm still looking at hones.

I'm thinking about buying a DMT progression for my knives, and a finishing hone for both my knives and my razor.

Would the spyderco UF be a terrible choice then? i know the perferred method is using water stones, but i like to work at my desk, and soaking and wetting stones seems on my desk doesn't seem ideal.
Thing is, of all the dozens of threads i've read regarding the UF Stone, there are some who rave about how surprised they are by it's performance, some who rave about it after lapping, and many who say it is a good hone, that is bad for beginners. I have the UF rods, which i used to use for my knives, so i know how fantastic the results are. however, it seems flatness is the main issue. is it worth the gamble to see if i get a flat UF stone?

Also, Right now i'm not looking for the "ultimate" edge or hone. i know that it can be an obsession (i've been there), but for razors i'd like to keep it as simple as possible.

Well done. I really appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to try things.

Ultimately, I find myself "edge" tinkering all the time.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Well done. I really appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to try things.

Ultimately, I find myself "edge" tinkering all the time.

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I am a tinkerer :)

I figure, knowing me i'll eventually end up with a whole bunch of hones. however i've been contemplating the large UF stone for a while now, before razors as a finishing stone for my knives. since i'm going to be buying a whole new sharpening setup for kitchen knives, pocket knives, tools, and stuff with my christmas money, i thought i'd pick up a finishing stone. i just don't know what to think about the UF stone. If all the reviews said the same thing; that it needs lapping (which voids warranty), or that they are terrible for razors, it would effect my decision. However there are so many darned people who have had good experiences getting comfortable shaves right off the UF stone.

the only reason i am not just buying the norton 8k and to hell with it, is because of the points out saying that they wear, and many posts recommend lapping at every use, something i can't imagine doing when i want to touch up my pocket knives or occasionally my razor.

I've mentally separated "comfortable shave" from "perfect edge", it's hard to draw the line in the literature on the various hones.

THe norton 4k/8k combo is a beautiful hone for razors. Yes they need lapping, but any hone you get you will want to lap. I don't think you need to lap them every use either, that is a bit overboard.

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Originally Posted by markevens

THe norton 4k/8k combo is a beautiful hone for razors. Yes they need lapping, but any hone you get you will want to lap. I don't think you need to lap them every use either, that is a bit overboard.

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Yeah i suppose. there are videos online of the norton where the person's 4k side is 1mm thick!

Would cheaper chinese carbon straights like this or a Kreigar do for practicing sharpening? or would there be no point experimenting with a cheaper blade? basically $15 convexed straights.
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w..._lam/jh777.jpg

You can use the same tools and techniques on razors that give you hair-whittling sharpness on your knives.

Well up to now i've been using a rather makeshift setup. I have a norton cryostolon, a cheap $14 hard arkansas, and the med/f/uf rods layed flat on the base of my sharpmaker. i finish with loaded strops (CrOx and AlOx).

I've been trying to assemble a proper setup. I would have bought a DMT 8" C/F/EF and a spyderco for finishing before, as it is a good progression for my knives. However, now that i've got a straight razor, i would like to have a setup that could work for both purposes. Thing is, i don't know whether the spyderco UF is suitable for finishing/touchup of razors, or whether DMT F -> spyderco UF is good enough for restoration.

Your setup will work just fine for straight razors too. A straight razor is nothing more than a specialized knife. You can get more sharpening stones, etc. if you like (most of us do, because it's so fun) but it is not necessary.

Cheers,
Jeff

I do actually enjoy sharpening to begin with, which is why i'm planning on getting a proper set. If i was only into razors, i definitely would focus more towards the higher end, just because even setting the bevel only requires what i would consider an already fine stone.
However i do need a relatively wide spectrum of stones as i sharpen everything from kitchen knives to s30v pocket knives as well, so my budget must be stretched to encompass all that (at least for now).

I want to start with a progression that will get the job done, but has room for improvement later.

my current thinking is this:
DMT 8" continuous C/F/EF
Spyderco F

after reading this rather fascinating thread: I am considering swapping out the EF dmt with a EEF dmt, As it seems like going from EEF to spyderco UF is sufficent for setting a bevel and finishing for a comfortable shave. However for my other knives i'm not sure what going from DMT F to EEF would do for the scratch pattern, other than taking a really long time.