Grind for beginner?

Hi gents!

A youtuber asked for for advice on what grind to get:

"Hello Thomas. I want to start straight shaving soon. I'm looking forward a 5/8 dovo. But I'm not sure whether to choose full or half hollow. I've read half hollow is more forgiving for a beginner, but I was wondering if such a razor is better for heavier beards. I have a thin, not too dense beard (except a bit denser on my neck).
Which gring would you recommend me considering that I'm a beginner and my beard is not too thick?
Full or half hollow?"

But I dont really know too much about grinds, or how they differ in shaving ability?

A little help would be much appreciated. :beer1:

Thomas in the Wiki and the beginner section is a recommendation and why

but here is the condensed version

Size 6/8 why=because it is dead center, and perhaps a bit easier to control on the strops but 5/8 is fine too

Grind 1/2 hollow why= because it is dead center and a bit more forgiving to a newb...

Round nose because it gives the illusion of being slightly safer :D

What Glen says is as good as you'll find.

I continue to find 6/8 the easiest size to use.

I found the heavier grinds (1/4 hol & near wedge) easier to use at first. I continue to like them alot, but below the mouth line, my growth is quite heavy. I use and enjoy blades as small as 4/8, and flexible full/extra hollows, but they were much more of a challenge at first.

With what you've heard already, I would say the condition of the edge is probably more important than small differences in size & grind. Everyone will say shave ready is critical - and they're right. Beyond that, I would say an edge optimized for smoothness - such as from a coticule or jnat. The friendliness of those finishes did more for my enjoyment of a blade than looks, sizes or grinds could possibly provide.

By all means, keep posting on how the first shaves go. The help here is unbelievable.

I agree with everyone above--half-hollow, finished on a gentle hone. 6/8 blades aren't as common as 5/8 blades, and that's why I started on a 5/8. Having learned on 5/8, I found that my one 6/8 blade carries way more lather (so I don't need to rinse it as often) and shaves under the nose almost as well as the narrower blades--the difference there is negligible, but it exists.

Since all my muscle memory was formed on 5/8 blades, I have cut myself a couple of times with the 6/8 just because the edge was a little farther out from my grip than I was used to. But if you learn on a 6/8, everything else will be that much safer... except of course for those monster 7/8 and 8/8 blades.

Best wishes!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pinklather

Beyond that, I would say an edge optimized for smoothness - such as from a coticule or jnat. The friendliness of those finishes did more for my enjoyment of a blade than looks, sizes or grinds could possibly provide.

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And Ya lost me there, :(

Are you saying that edges off other stones are not optimized for smoothness ???

Or are you saying that In Your Humble Opinion that Your razors honed by your hands shaved on your face, perhaps like the edge off of your Coticule and your J-nat more than other stones that you have experienced on your razors... See how personal that got ???

I tend not to like broad statements like that, it confuses people...

No doubt, that the advice given in the wiki and repeated her by Glen is sound; but, I started with 5/8 full hollow Dovo and had no problems (excepting a few nicks in my strop). I would just recommend that he finds a razor in his price range that he really likes. One of the things that I think we overlook too often here, is that a straight razor is a lifetime commitment-- in all likelihood, most of our razors will far outlive us.

Besides, there's plenty of time to experiment with size and grind later. After all, if you keep buying only one kind of razor, that makes you an addict :w

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

And Ya lost me there, :(

Are you saying that edges off other stones are not optimized for smoothness ???

Or are you saying that In Your Humble Opinion that Your razors honed by your hands shaved on your face, perhaps like the edge off of your Coticule and your J-nat more than other stones that you have experienced on your razors... See how personal that got ???

I tend not to like broad statements like that, it confuses people...

---

Not to hijack this thread, however... Although I am not the original poster that led to your response, I do find an edge off my coticule to be smoother than my Naniwas. Even stranger, if I tweak an edge off a Naniwa with a coticule, I don't get the level of smoothness than if I used only the coticule from start to finish. I have tried a number of different razors and I get the same response each time. Any insight? PM is okay.

:OT

The simple answer is "You found your stone sell the others"

The complicated answer is "Practice makes perfect"

I say that because you mentioned multiple razors... Some razors excel on some stones in some hands...

I use a Coticule on Sheffield steel for my customers because that gets me the best responses from them...

Now does that mean I would get bad responses if I used a Coticule on say a NY brand extreme hollow??? Nope... But I know that taking those razors out on the Shaptons to a 30K finish gets me "Wow"

Same as I know taking the Hard Steel Solingens (Friodurs, ERN's, Re visor's, Wacker's just a few names there) is going to get me "Wow" when I use the Naniwas..

Or the Swedes on a CH12k

You also have to take into account the stones themselves, paired with the hands pushing them... everything I just said above, could change for a different person...

Softer Lower grit stones tend to be more forgiving to heavy hands, where as when you get into the 8k+ hard Synthetics and the higher grit Naturals you have to have a smooth light stroke. hence the practice makes perfect statement... You also have to take into account the Slurry action which softens your stroke try that on the Naniwas too and see what happens. (there is a whole thread about it)

You also have to take into account Personal preference in this whole thing, the stones action can account for a ton there, your personal choice of razors can too and of course your stroke...

You will notice that the more razors you hone, and the more stones you use, the more you will learn that there really is no best/smoothest/magical stone they are all just tools...

This is exactly why when I see broad stroke statements, I will usually say Whoa there, that isn't necessarily true for everyone...


Edit: I forgot the whole differences in Natural stones too, here read this thread it will explain it

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...nese-hone.html

look at post #12 twice, you will see the same statement again, that I wrote above :)

[QUOTE=gssixgun;733127]
"I use a Coticule on Sheffield steel for my customers because that gets me the best responses from them...

Now does that mean I would get bad responses if I used a Coticule on say a NY brand extreme hollow??? Nope... But I know that taking those razors out on the Shaptons to a 30K finish gets me "Wow"

Same as I know taking the Hard Steel Solingens (Friodurs, ERN's, Re visor's, Wacker's just a few names there) is going to get me "Wow" when I use the Naniwas..

Or the Swedes on a CH12k"

Thanks, Glen. In a few short paragraphs you shared information on honing which must have taken years of experience to garner. I take my hat off to you. And, I can see that I will use the KISS principle for years to come.

[QUOTE=Qatsats;733140]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

"I use a Coticule on Sheffield steel for my customers because that gets me the best responses from them...

Now does that mean I would get bad responses if I used a Coticule on say a NY brand extreme hollow??? Nope... But I know that taking those razors out on the Shaptons to a 30K finish gets me "Wow"

Same as I know taking the Hard Steel Solingens (Friodurs, ERN's, Re visor's, Wacker's just a few names there) is going to get me "Wow" when I use the Naniwas..

Or the Swedes on a CH12k"

Thanks, Glen. In a few short paragraphs you shared information on honing which must have taken years of experience to garner. I take my hat off to you. And, I can see that I will use the KISS principle for years to come.

---

Your welcome, but please don't miss that last line there :D

You also have to take into account the stones themselves, paired with the hands pushing them... everything I just said above, could change for a different person...

It never ends my friend, find what works for you and play it out to the smooth conclusion

Also to bring this full circle, for a beginner to start learning to hone, I still believe learning to touch them up first is the easiest way to learn...

Thanks Glen!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

And Ya lost me there, :(

Are you saying that edges off other stones are not optimized for smoothness ???

Or are you saying that In Your Humble Opinion that Your razors honed by your hands shaved on your face, perhaps like the edge off of your Coticule and your J-nat more than other stones that you have experienced on your razors... See how personal that got ???

I tend not to like broad statements like that, it confuses people...

---

Whoa Glen,

I didn't read Pinklather's post as an inclusive hone list. I have an extra-hollow he honed on his Asagi and the edge gave me an epiphany about smoothness and a goal in my own honing.

We haven't all lucked into the experience of an unusually friendly edge, or gained the wisdom from long work. Many of us came to the site not knowing the terms "bevel setter" or "finisher." I knew the idea of a smooth edge before I got the blade from Pinklather, but the idea of a friendly edge, such as one can get from some types of hones, is one I hadn't considered before.

I'm not going to dive into the Jnat market to try to replicate it; I'm going to work on technique with my own hones to see if I can make it happen with them. But I won't expect that sort of edge off the Norton 8k.

Anyway, in my humble opinion, I don't see why you got your hackles up over that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by roughkype

I'm not going to dive into the Jnat market to try to replicate it; I'm going to work on technique with my own hones to see if I can make it happen with them. But I won't expect that sort of edge off the Norton 8k.

Anyway, in my humble opinion, I don't see why you got your hackles up over that.

---

For that exact reason, see what you just said????

Again you are thinking it is the stone that makes the edge,, With the proper technique that "Lowly Norton 8k" will smoke many pricier hones for as you keep trying to qualify as a "friendly edge" What exactly is a friendlier edge please qualify that ????

FYI there is a E-bay seller that moves tons of razors, and people stiil brag about his edges, believe it or not he still uses a Norton 4/8 and some CrOx that's it nothing more...

That is what gets my hackles (your words) up.


Edit: I gotta ask??? do you want to believe it is all in the stones ?? that if you just buy the right stone you will get fantastic edges???

Glen is using a lot of words to say: It's the hands, stupid :roflmao

Straight to the point as always Paul hehehe

I did mention that up there someplace though, I said "Practice makes Perfect" :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bonusmarple

Not to hijack this thread, however... Although I am not the original poster that led to your response, I do find an edge off my coticule to be smoother than my Naniwas. Even stranger, if I tweak an edge off a Naniwa with a coticule, I don't get the level of smoothness than if I used only the coticule from start to finish. I have tried a number of different razors and I get the same response each time. Any insight? PM is okay.

---

In thousands of razors honed I have never found the edges off any of my Coticules to be smoother than a Naniwa SS 12K, or my Escher or any of my Japanese Naturals for that matter. Coticules are adequate stones that will work. I used a couple exclusively for 2 years in finishing razors before I bought my first Escher. I have never had better results with the Coticule on one stone honing after a bevel is set than on my Escher and Japanese Naturals as well. From a consistency and reliability standpoint, I have not found a natural stone yet that can beat a few of the synthetics.

I think if you really wanna have some fun, do 10 light X strokes with .5 diamond spray on felt or CrOx and in a blind test, identify what hone it came off of.

In answer to the poster, I think that a 5/8 full hollow is a great razor for new people and recommend them all the time. They are maneuverable and will last a person a life time if that is the only razor they want. The full hollow is sturdy and yet delicate. I think new people get a better feel at first when shaving with them. The biggest problem for new guys though is technique. Once they get prep and a good shaving angle down, it becomes all personal preference.

Have fun,

Lynn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

And Ya lost me there, :(

Are you saying that edges off other stones are not optimized for smoothness ???

Or are you saying that In Your Humble Opinion that Your razors honed by your hands shaved on your face, perhaps like the edge off of your Coticule and your J-nat more than other stones that you have experienced on your razors... See how personal that got ???

I tend not to like broad statements like that, it confuses people...

---

Hi Glen,

Don't mean to pull your pin on this. Or stir up more heat than light. Perhaps shaptons can be optimized for smoothness, but that edge hasn't crossed my path. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Perhaps that's your thrust. Perhaps in the right hands they can - but the honing and shaving threads aren't full of threads about smoothness of edge and shaptons. If anyone has the trick up their sleeve that could make it so - I would bet you do. (remember I've tried a shapton finish from your skilled hands).

If any given stone can be used to emphasize smoothness - as opposed to max keenness, that smoothness is an aid to the noob. If others can get smoothness from other rocks - that's what would help the noob. Objecting to the broad statement - I have some respect for that. If you're guarding against folks thinking that only cotis & jnats can produce smooth - that's a worthy correction and you do us yet another service. OTOH, if you search stone type and 'smooth', you'll find both rocks I mention to be very well represented, if not dominant. That doesn't make it right for all. 'Doesn't make max smoothness right for all. I'm addressing the OP asking about what's good for a beginner. Lynn and Sham - probably many other masters of the rocks speak so highly of the Escher/Thurry. I'm not qualified to talk about them. But like yourself, they have techniques that would yield max sharp and max smooth, and most probably like some balance of that. The noob benefits from smoothness during the time technique develops. Whatever produces that benefit is what I advocate. That was the thrust of my post.

I used to have hackles that got up all the time,
but then they'd run off and be real hard to find.
So I just put them away in very safe place
and just concentrated on the straight shaving race.

They'll still get up sometimes, and I can hear them roar,
but they're always safely confined in my bureau drawer.
They're in there with my razors, soaps, and my brush,
so when I hear them get up I just tell them to hush.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pinklather

Hi Glen,

Don't mean to pull your pin on this. Or stir up more heat than light. Perhaps shaptons can be optimized for smoothness, but that edge hasn't crossed my path. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Perhaps that's your thrust. Perhaps in the right hands they can - but the honing and shaving threads aren't full of threads about smoothness of edge and shaptons. If anyone has the trick up their sleeve that could make it so - I would bet you do. (remember I've tried a shapton finish from your skilled hands).

If any given stone can be used to emphasize smoothness - as opposed to max keenness, that smoothness is an aid to the noob. If others can get smoothness from other rocks - that's what would help the noob. Objecting to the broad statement - I have some respect for that. If you're guarding against folks thinking that only cotis & jnats can produce smooth - that's a worthy correction and you do us yet another service. OTOH, if you search stone type and 'smooth', you'll find both rocks I mention to be very well represented, if not dominant. That doesn't make it right for all. 'Doesn't make max smoothness right for all. I'm addressing the OP asking about what's good for a beginner. Lynn and Sham - probably many other masters of the rocks speak so highly of the Escher/Thurry. I'm not qualified to talk about them. But like yourself, they have techniques that would yield max sharp and max smooth, and most probably like some balance of that. The noob benefits from smoothness during the time technique develops. Whatever produces that benefit is what I advocate. That was the thrust of my post.

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The rock of which you speak has been made popular of late by a huge marketing process. The names of the stones have been changed and the stories glorified. There is even a site dedicated to the marketing of the stones for the place that mines them in my opinion. There is no smooth without sharp in my opinion. That stone is a can do stone that can provide respectable results. There are better stones and more consistent stones available. The Shapton Glass Stones can be used on any make of razor with very repeatable results. The stone you speak of can be used with any razor after bevel setting with decent results but not with the same consistency.

My apologies to the original poster for all the off topic.

Have fun,

Lynn

Pastor,

Something perhaps to consider is using the Google map page to find other members in your area. The benefits abound. Help with technique probably being the best benefit.

Another possibility is that there will be some forum members that might let you try some of their gear - blades, soaps, creams, observe your technique, etc. I've extended this offer to those local to the Portland, OR area, but none have taken me up on this. When I asked how to find one's preferences in gear - the answer was always a form of 'get one and try it'. That's fine, it works, but is costly. I introduced a new shaver to the straight, using an edge that was very friendly, and he continued with confidence way beyond my recommended stopping point. 'Bloodless, smooth, no irritation. He had a raspberry, mid-neck. I said: 'that's not bad'. He said: 'that was with the DE I was finishing with'.

Don't let all the huff and puff of our passions about rocks put you off. The short version is that in very little time, you'll likely have the best shaves of your life, and each guy here stands ready to give the best help they possibly can. I've never found a forum where the help was better - ever - on any topic.

I hope to hear soon of your first shaves. It's a real rush.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pinklather

Hi Glen,

Don't mean to pull your pin on this. Or stir up more heat than light. Perhaps shaptons can be optimized for smoothness, but that edge hasn't crossed my path. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Perhaps that's your thrust. Perhaps in the right hands they can - but the honing and shaving threads aren't full of threads about smoothness of edge and shaptons. If anyone has the trick up their sleeve that could make it so - I would bet you do. (remember I've tried a shapton finish from your skilled hands).

If any given stone can be used to emphasize smoothness - as opposed to max keenness, that smoothness is an aid to the noob. If others can get smoothness from other rocks - that's what would help the noob. Objecting to the broad statement - I have some respect for that. If you're guarding against folks thinking that only cotis & jnats can produce smooth - that's a worthy correction and you do us yet another service. OTOH, if you search stone type and 'smooth', you'll find both rocks I mention to be very well represented, if not dominant. That doesn't make it right for all. 'Doesn't make max smoothness right for all. I'm addressing the OP asking about what's good for a beginner. Lynn and Sham - probably many other masters of the rocks speak so highly of the Escher/Thurry. I'm not qualified to talk about them. But like yourself, they have techniques that would yield max sharp and max smooth, and most probably like some balance of that. The noob benefits from smoothness during the time technique develops. Whatever produces that benefit is what I advocate. That was the thrust of my post.

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You're starting to wrap you brain around what I was saying...and what I have learned...

Simply put the more you hone the better you get, the better you get the smoother your edges get, the smoother your edges get the more you realize the "magic" is in the hands not the stones...

For the hypothetical of when you are good with many stones???? then refer back to my posts above, where you start trying to match steel to stone :)

Also any Newbs trying to follow this, we are talking about such minute differences here it is crazy, but we are a very specialized forum... :D
In other words we are OCD about Sharp !!!!


PS: Pastor/Thomas is not a Newb he is helping one out

I've read a lot of posts pertaining to both Coticule and Japanese naturals. It was the romantic nature of honing with natural stones that peaked my interest.

I started on Norton 4k/8k, added a Chinese natural, and then I dove into the Shapton set later adding a Japanese natural stone. I was perfectly content with the quality of my edges. Being morally opposed to using pastes :p, I refuse to use them.

Then, one day I bought a narrow coticule in order to handle my smiling and warped razors. I really had no intention of using it for anything other than those razors. But the results and single stone approach really appealed to me, so I've almost gone to coticule honing exclusively.

Now, concerning coticules and Coticule.be, Bart maintains that when he contacted Rob here to evaluate stones for him it was just his excuse to play with more stones than he'd otherwise be able to experiment with. Starting a website was his way of keeping that up (I'll take him at his word because I've never been given reason not to believe him). I've read at least a dozen times where he said that had he lived in Japan, he'd likely have a site called JNat.jp (or something along those lines). Is Ardennes benefiting from the publicity? Unquestionably yes, but sellers of Naniwas benefit from every post about their efficacy, as do sellers of Shaptons, sellers of Eschers on eBay, etc. , etc. etc.

So, now we have all the hype, and with it, we have guys who almost feel like they need to discredit it. This is unfortunate, to me because it's creating unnecessary tension. Coticules are as divisive in this scene as religious denominations, and that's baffling to me. Part of it is hyperbole on display from enthusiasts of various stones, and part of it is people who weren't so impressed sharing their experiences in such a way as to imply that those enthusiasts are suffering from a lack of experience.

Now it's time for some honesty:

I've had very similar shaving experiences on Shaptons, Japanese Naturals, Chinese Naturals, Coticules, and Cerium Oxide. The quality of the edges are really not that different when done well.

I sometimes have to do literally hundreds of strokes to get the results I want off my coticules. But, when the process is complete, I've tried razors that were equal, never better. With that, the time it takes is negligible because my stroke has gotten much faster, but for others it may take hours.

Consistency, personal preference, time, skill, etc. all play a significant role in what we use and recommend. This coticule hype is why I dislike hyperbole so much. It really is a great tool, but it's not any better or worse (in the right hands) than any of the other tools available to us. My main reason for using it is because a) I love the simplicity of one stone honing, b) I love the romantic aspect of using a natural stone, c) I love the resulting edges from a well executed honing session as much as anything that I've ever tried.

That doesn't mean my razors are better than the razor that Glen honed for me on Cerium Oxide or than my own Japanese natural stone finished razors, or any other ones for that matter. It's just what I like. And like Lynn always says, it's about having fun. :beer1:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

For that exact reason, see what you just said????

Again you are thinking it is the stone that makes the edge,, With the proper technique that "Lowly Norton 8k" will smoke many pricier hones for as you keep trying to qualify as a "friendly edge" What exactly is a friendlier edge please qualify that ????

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No, I'm not thinking it's the stone that makes the edge. That's what you seem to be reading into these posts. But different stones have different characteristics.

A friendly edge is one that shaves hair easily but is not aggressive toward skin, even if your shaving technique isn't the greatest. It gives me the Wow you want to give your customers.

The biggest shaving Wow I've had was from Pinklather's honing of this one blade on this one stone. That's why I felt compelled to step into this fray at all. Had it not involved that bit of personal experience I'd have moved on to another thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

You're starting to wrap you brain around what I was saying...and what I have learned...

Simply put the more you hone the better you get, the better you get the smoother your edges get, the smoother your edges get the more you realize the "magic" is in the hands not the stones...

For the hypothetical of when you are good with many stones???? then refer back to my posts above, where you start trying to match steel to stone :)


PS: Pastor/Thomas is not a Newb he is helping one out

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As you and Paul put well - its the hands - and there's no shortcut there - no magic bullet rock. The entire area of stone compatibility fascinates me - such as your mentioning in past threads that shaptons seem to play well with only other shaptons in a progression. I've had a couple good examples in the last 2 wks of that. Steels and stones, I'm not very savvy on yet. 'Just the heavy sheffields not liking the asagi and preferring the coti.

I very much would like a thread in the honing section on edge attributes and which techniques serve to steer an edge towards keen or smooth and how to jockey/balance those goals on which rocks.

For Pastor's friend - a forgiving edge remains the recommendation, however it's derived.

Paul, 'just saw your post. 'Really well put - and informative. Thank You.

Getting back to the OP, I have a 1/4 hollow in my rotation. Lately, I've been using it as my "Monday shaver" because of the way it just plows through a couple of days worth of growth. If I let my beard grow, I would look like Papa Smerf, so if I go for even a day without shaving it's no joke. On a regular shave day, it shaves just fine. However, I just love the beautiful sound made by a 3/4 hollow or full hollow as they go through my beard. It's just that after a day off or two they are a little bit of a challenge to get through the thick forest all over my face. The short answer is: It depends on your personal preference, really. But if you have a thick, wiry beard like me, it would be advisable to have something closer to the wedge end of the spectrum to make those bristles feel like butter. If I had to pick just one, I would get a 3/4 or full hollow and just stay on top of it.