Shapton's 30,000 or Coticule?

Hello All,

It seems that I've got a beard that's made of Tungsten Carbide because my recently honed Henckels is already dull and no amount of stropping with leather or lined will help. Admittedly my stropping technique is not good...

Regardless, I'd like to hone my own and was wondering on the consenus on whether I should go with the Shapton 'system' (very expensive as I was advised to get the 30,000, and another stone, the Diamond profiler and the 'widget' that keeps the stone steady for honing. It would all come to several hundred dollars.

The other option I was looking into was the Coticule with the Yellow and Blue Stones and calling it a day with those.

Which would you recommend and why? Please keep in mind I don't intend to restore razors, or anything above just honing them to keep them sharp. If it gets to the point where I need to have them re-beveled (because I might screw up the honing) then it'll be done by a pro.

Cheers!

If those are the two choices you are looking at only, then get the Coticule...

As the Shapton 30k doesn't do that much without the system behind it and is crazy expensive...

Now if you want other opinions beside the Shaptons, I have them but you didn't ask... so I only gave an answer based on your question... These two choices are just way apples and oranges

Norton 4/8 and maybe a Naniwa 12k superstone if you want icing on your cake. Because, after fooling with a lot of razors and hones those are what I've found are the best bang for the buck. Add a coticule for later if you like to play with hones and an Escher if you have HAD and deep pockets ...... not to mention the j-nats. :hmmm:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

If those are the two choices you are looking at only, then get the Coticule...

As the Shapton 30k doesn't do that much without the system behind it and is crazy expensive...

Now if you want other opinions beside the Shaptons, I have them but you didn't ask... so I only gave an answer based on your question... These two choices are just way apples and oranges

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Don't be mean... give up the goods! :)

You're right though, I should have opened it up to alternatives and would gratefully receive them!

Cheers

The Shapton items you mentioned are the same items that you would add to a typical Shapton set up if you wanted to make it a "cost is secondary" set up. Unfortunately, even by adding another stone, they don't represent a very effective honing arrangement. It's like you got the icing on the cake....but no cake.

If you want to focus on the Shapton line, and budget is a consideration, I would suggest substituting a DMT 8C and a generic stone holder for the DGLP and Shapton stone holder. Instead of the 30K (plus one more stone) consider 1K, 2K, 4K, 8K & 16K Glass stones. This selection would give you everything you need (except practice) to go from bevel setting to finish and touch up.

Obviously, there are many other options, but I wanted to point out a more cost effective Shapton based alternative. As this thread progresses I'm sure you will see that there are many ways to approach honing, especially on the high grit end of the process. For what it's worth, I would prefer the coticule and bbw to the Shapton 30+ one, but only because the 30K has a very limited range and is very costly. If you said a 4K and an 8K I would go with that over the coticule/bbw. If nothing else, it's probably more cost effective if you compare similarly sized stones. I'm not that excited about the bouts or other very small coticules that are available at a low cost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

If those are the two choices you are looking at only, then get the Coticule...

As the Shapton 30k doesn't do that much without the system behind it and is crazy expensive...

Now if you want other opinions beside the Shaptons, I have them but you didn't ask... so I only gave an answer based on your question... These two choices are just way apples and oranges

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I'll ask. Suggestions?

Naniwa superstones are pretty good.

If you go the shapton route, good lord you sure don't need all the "extras." Just the stones up to 15K or so will do you more than fine, I reckon.

Was the guy who told you that a Shapton salesman?

If it were me, I would get a norton 4/8 combo and a barber's hone. That keeps you set for life, plus you can sharpen old blades on the Norton.

Coticules are nice but they are, imo, in the 8K range and leave me wanting more keenness which I can never get no matter how much I try, so I use other stones before it if I want to finish on it.

I don't own the Shapton 30K but it's crazy money, only can be used at the end of the shapton system, etc.

If your shave-ready razor was dulled by shaving the coticule is all you need to get her going again. 30K hone is probably too fine for touch-ups so you'll still need a 8-10K hone if you buy a Shapton.

i would go for the coti because that stone can take you from bevel setting to finishing i would also add a c-12 it's only 25$ and can be used to touch up and its a finisher

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Originally Posted by PenSword

Which would you recommend and why? Please keep in mind I don't intend to restore razors, or anything above just honing them to keep them sharp. If it gets to the point where I need to have them re-beveled (because I might screw up the honing) then it'll be done by a pro.

Cheers!

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A Barber's Hone because that is what it was designed for.. they are fast and easy

A Chinese PHIG very good price, and the right one can do exactly what you want..

Any Synthetic 8k-10k hone because they work better at what you want to do than a true finisher...

A good quality Thuringen because when used for this they give a buttery smooth edge..

The good quality Coticule they are very good for this, but watch the hype on these stones..

A good quality Japanese polishing stone not a finisher, much harder to find though...


Keep in mind any of these other then the barber's hone require practice and have a learning curve, beside the waste of money trying to find the right one with the naturals...

:gl:

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Originally Posted by eleblu05

i would go for the coti because that stone can take you from bevel setting to finishing i would also add a c-12 it's only 25$ and can be used to touch up and its a finisher

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This is nice to read, but..............

You can set a bevel on the Coticule if the razor is in nice shape and you want to spend the time. For ebay specials or razors with uneven flattening on spines not the same on both sides, it could take days or longer to get to a decent bevel. Try this on an old Meat Chopper wedge some time. Once a bevel is set, the one hone methods of slurry variation can definitely get a razor to shavable off the Coticule. And although, not the most consistent method off any of the Natural Stones, it definitely works.

The Chinese 12K which is also not the most consistent stone around, can be used for finishing and the one stone honing method. It may take a couple tries, but it can work.

Now........None of this is really for beginner honing in my opinion and may be very frustrating to a new guy.

I would typically recommend that a new guy learn to refresh razors first and get them dialed in if they are starting with shave ready razors and also work on their stropping technique.

As far as taking on the whole process, there are many alternative and many opinions and a lot of opinions from people with little actual experience. The Shaptons, Naniwas, Nortons, Coticules, Japanese stones are all viable. It really becomes a matter of choosing and practicing and learning from your mistakes. Heck, if one stone honing will work with a Barbers Hone and it can, the possibilities are endless.

Have fun,

Lynn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

A Barber's Hone because that is what it was designed for.. they are fast and easy

A Chinese PHIG very good price, and the right one can do exactly what you want..

Any Synthetic 8k-10k hone because they work better at what you want to do than a true finisher...

A good quality Thuringen because when used for this they give a buttery smooth edge..

The good quality Coticule they are very good for this, but watch the hype on these stones..

A good quality Japanese polishing stone not a finisher, much harder to find though...


Keep in mind any of these other then the barber's hone require practice and have a learning curve, beside the waste of money trying to find the right one with the naturals...

:gl:

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Add to this that you can also refresh a razor with just a few strokes (usually around 10 with no pressure) on Chromium Oxide or .5 diamond something on the back of your linen or leather strop. Many times, you can keep your razor going for a long time before ever going to a finishing hone for refreshing.

Lynn

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Originally Posted by Disburden

If it were me, I would get a norton 4/8 combo and a barber's hone. That keeps you set for life, plus you can sharpen old blades on the Norton.

Coticules are nice but they are, imo, in the 8K range and leave me wanting more keenness which I can never get no matter how much I try, so I use other stones before it if I want to finish on it.

I don't own the Shapton 30K but it's crazy money, only can be used at the end of the shapton system, etc.

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I like your idea..but I've read SOOO much conflicting info about the barbers hones that I'm scared to use one. I have a "keen kutter" that is in perfect shape, given that I've never lapped it. I also have a Naniwa 12k. The norton 4k/8k is my next purchase, but I think it'll have to wait a few months - plus my razor isn't dragging that much yet. I guess my question is - are you using the barber's hone as a finisher? I was thinking of using it BEFORE the 12k, then a few laps on the 12k before hitting balsa, pasted strop, etc.

I kept my first razor going for 6 months with Chromium Oxide until i dropped it and it needed something more.

This started me down a long expensive path of buying hones....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Add to this that you can also refresh a razor with just a few strokes (usually around 10 with no pressure) on Chromium Oxide or .5 diamond something on the back of your linen or leather strop. Many times, you can keep your razor going for a long time before ever going to a finishing hone for refreshing.

Lynn

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What ever you decide is the best choice for you, stick with it and learn how to use the system for consistent results. About the worst thing you can do is to have three options for honing a razor that you haven't mastered.

Gentlemen,

thank you all for your great responses. I think I'll go down the path of simple and inexpensive and start from there. The suggestion of focus on one approach and get good at that is of course the most sensible (and cost effective!). I'll be ordering the Chromium Oxide mentioned by Lynn and take it from there. In preparation for the future I got lucky and won a vintage coticule and Swaty barber's hone on eBay for very little cost and so I think I'll have enough to learn on for sometime to come.

One quick question - what's the difference in the end result between using .5 micron Chromium Oxide and .5 micron 15 carat Diamond Spray? The cost differential is minor...

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disburden

If it were me, I would get a norton 4/8 combo and a barber's hone. That keeps you set for life, plus you can sharpen old blades on the Norton.

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I was going to suggest the same

When I started with straights I ruined more good edges with improper stropping. After several months I got it together and simple touchup can extend my time between honing. Go Slow.