I just conducted the hanging hair test. Soaking the hair in water makes a huge difference! Anyway, just thought I would share that the water really is key.
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I just conducted the hanging hair test. Soaking the hair in water makes a huge difference! Anyway, just thought I would share that the water really is key.
HHT does not indicate how well the razor shaves. I personally do not see why people get hung up on this test so much, the ultimate test is the shave test.
MikeMN,
IIRC the water swells the hair and raises the 'scales' on it, making it easier for the blade to cut it.
As mainaman says, the 'real' test is how well the blade shaves :)
Have fun !
Best regards
Russ
The nice part about the HHT test is that, on a continuum, it is more on the objective side of the spectrum than shavability. * Now, you may have a highly calibrated shaving procedure, but this is the beginner's forum, and expecting a new SR shaver to be able to tell if his new SR is sharp enough (or requires honing) with a shave test is, to be blunt, silly. *
It's akin to me telling a new computer user they don't need a resident virus checker because they don't work that well, they slow your system down, and, besides, if you set up an external firewall, keep your operating system up to date, and stay away from dodgy sites, you should be okay.
That being said, as beginners gain more experience, I am sure a shave test will become his ultimate standard. *Meanwhile, objective (or at least more objective) measures are useful
Don't take this wrong Mike but that logic is *Silly* as you put it
Take two hairs from two people, at just my house, One hair "mine" will pop an HHT at 1k set bevel...
The other hair "the wife's" will not pop an HHT unless the edge is absolutely perfect shave ready stropped...
So what is the HHT going to tell me if I were single????? and a beginner???
You need to think that through a bit..
Completely agree!
The EASIEST way for a new guy to tell if his razor is shaveable is to lather up and shave with it.
That'll tell him if the blade is sharp and smooth.
The tests (HHT, TNT, TPT etc) won't tell him anything because a) he's new and has no reference point of what a shave ready edge is like and b) has no idea how those tests should perform for him.
I gave a honing lesson earlier this week and even a really easy test like shaving arm hair yields different results between people.
There are more threads here about these tests from confused new guys than you can shake a stick at. I should know, I started a few of them when I first joined..! :D The final test for me on all the blades I hone is the shave test, that's the only way to tell if it's a good shaver.
Seriously, the only true test of a blade is to use it for it's intended purpose: Shaving. If it shaves good, it is good. Simples.
The best way for a beginner to ensure a shaveable edge is to get his/her razor honed by someone who has been honing razors for a long time. Even if it's just to compare his/her honing results with. This way of shaving is not very objective or we wouldn't have so many different strop and honest that everyone swears are the best, we would only recommend boar hair if your beard is scrubby. Knot sizes would be standard or numbered based off your face. Both VDH and Martin de Candre wouldn't coexist.
All these items do the same job bit while I prefer boar hair, mama bear and Al's bomb, pinaud clubman, and my SRD premium II strop, there are other brushes, creams & soaps, AS, and strop out there which work well. Not everyone is going to prefer the same thing and that is where experience matters.
Hence the shave test.
All I have to say is that the HHT is the antithesis of 'objective.'
The reason that the "new guy" searches around for a supposedly objective sharpness test is that the shave test won't work for him because he has not yet learned how to shave. Look at the "First Shave" posts in the Beginners forum. This is not to make fun of them, but most of them have no clue whether their blade is sharp, whether their technique is off, or what the heck is going on. To tell the 'new guy" just to go shave with his razor and that that experience will tell him whether it is sharp won't work because he won't be able to learn from that experience.
That is why the HHT seems so attractive to the "new guy". He longs for a way to tell whether his blade is sharp, knows from experience that his shaves arenn't telling him whether it is or not.
The HHT may not be objective, certainly has to be customized to make any sense at all, and is probably better used during honing and stropping than at any other time. But even a flawed attempt at the HHT is better than sending someone who has yet to learn how to straight shave back to the shave den to perform a hopeless "shave test".
But why is it that someone who can't even shave yet is trying to determine if a razor is sharp? There are certainly a lot of newbies with the hubris to think they can hone their own, or that they know better than the person who honed their razor, but the reality is the HHT is not a test of sharpness.
HHT. Why is it so difficult for people to understand that the very hair used is a variable so individual and unrepeatable in any other consistent circumstance that there is never ever going to be any grounds for the test to be a reliable one?:banghead:
It is useful but in no way a definitive guide. You will find what works for you in time. As all members will infer... shaving a lot (and shave testing) is best.
I wish you great shaves.
HHT is a weird test for me. Every blade that is shave ready will pass HHT with my wifes hair. Not every blade that passes the HHT is shave ready though.
I dont know about this. The flawed HHT attempts are what usually lead to these posts:
"I had a razor honed by Lynn, but it does not seem to pass the HHT very well. I have a sharpening stone from lowes that says "coarse and fine" I use on my pocket knives . After about an hour of honing getting any sharper. Is my razor just not good?"
"But why is it that someone who can't even shave yet is trying to determine if a razor is sharp? There are certainly a lot of newbies with the hubris to think they can hone their own, or that they know better than the person who honed their razor, but the reality is the HHT is not a test of sharpness."
The reason is that the new shaver doesn't know whether his blade is sharp, pure and simple. He has no way to find that out, and his shaving, as we have seen, isn't telling anything that is clearly relative to the edge he is using.
There is no question whether the HHT is a measure of sharpness. Anything that causes a hair to be cut in half is a measure of sharpness. It may not be objective or certain, but it is a measure.
While we're harping on objectivity here, when did the shave test become objective? Not only do you have differing beards, differing preparation, techniques, edges and all of that, but you have different standards as well, BBS, DFS. CCS, and more. So I get the best shave of my life. How objective is that and what does it mean about the edge objectively?
Come to think of it, I never really considered any other measure of a straight razor being "shave ready" except for shaving my beard. I just took SRD or any other online vendor's word from whom I purchased a razor that the razor was shave ready.
Of course, later on I have removed hair from my lower arm to test if the razor was sharp. They usually do. But the hair which comprises my beard feels and probably is coarser than the hair on my arm.
In my opinion the HHT is not gonna do a new straight shaver any good.
It will only leave them questioning yet another factor: the hair on which they perform that test.
That said, the shave test is not of the biggest value either. It will not tell a new shaver that the razor is sharp enough.
(but of course, it will eventually give knowledge and experience)
I have made posts on here questioning a perfectly honed edge myself.
Of course, it was my prep and technique that needed honing.
Learning this takes time. The sooner that is accepted, the better the unexperienced will fare.
Having the razor professionally honed, and committing to that edge with patience and a lot of practice will be the way to learn this.
And once one has done that, the whole HHT becomes a sidetrack.
IMHO that is:)
YMMV and all that of course
Gentlemen:
The HHT test for an inexperienced shaver is about as reliable as an e-mail from Dubai asking for your bank account number to deposit a $7 million inheritance.
If you buy a shave-ready razor from a reliable vendor, assume that in all likelihood it is sharp. Shave with it. If you feel the razor is not shaving properly, rather than chasing the HHT, consider your skill level and perhaps your preparation as the culprits and try to improve upon them by studying more and asking questions.
Regards,
Obie
Only somebody who had slept through middle school science classes would, while searching for a repeatable (by the individual beginner in question) objective test decide to use a hair from a different person for each iteration.
Let me explain with another analogy. *Zero to sixty times and MPG performance don't indicate how well a car drives, either. *But if a person suspects his new car's engine was incorrectly tuned by the factory, listening to an old pro assert it doesn't matter as long as the car drives well isn't usually going to be well-received. *
But if one uses the same soaked hair on two side by side razors, both supposedly honed by a hone master, the person conducting the HHT can objectively demonstrate differences in sharpness.
Why the fear and trepidition among the experienced t such a tool to the beginner?
Some of you experienced guys, esteemed and venerated fountains of wisdom that you are (and this reputation is well deserved), are like my wife. My wife is an outstanding cook. But she doesn't use measuring cups when she cooks. She thinks the use of calibrated teaspoons and measuring cups is a silly movement to turn a high art into a something that resembles a chemistry experiment that a no talent automaton can execute. But, then again, my wife wouldn't make a good home economics teacher. She laughs and ridicules others who use measuring crutches when they cook.
Attachment 69480
Enough Dude!!!
Mike, read your first post, the very first one.. then read my statement about "thinking" a bit...
If you need me to explain that all to you step by step, I will take the time, but honestly I think you can figure out the flaws yourself... I have no problem walking somebody through all the ins and out of the HHT but it has been done numerous times on SRP...
Now on a Moderator note, you are being rather rude, the very first responses to Stephen was laced with it, the the Middle School line would have drawn a ban if you had made it to any other person on the forum, other than me... Temper your responses in the future and drop the facetious tone, it doesn't always read well in your posts...
Yes that is a real warning...
I now have 4 razors. Two were hone by the same master, and from these, one of these was used and stropped; the other not. The other two have only the factory edge.
With a single piece of soaked hair, I am able to see, side by side, that:
1. The razor that was never used is sharper than the one that was used.
2. The two factory edge razors are very dull in comparison.
No surprise to an experienced straight razor shaver, I'm sure, but many of those same experienced straight razor shavers seem to have a lot of trouble seeing the value to a beginner of being able to non destructively and more objectively evaluate the sharpness of a razor.
You all have to admit that a HHT test is better for the health of a razor than another option a beginner might naively attempt: cutting paper.
How many new shavers have more than one razor to compare too? I can make a razor pass HHT easily off my DMT.
Unless someone sells clean and sterilized hairs from their head with detailed written instructions on how they should pass I do not see how it is valuable for a new shaver.
Even then it changes based on which end of the hair you hold, the length of the "hanging" part of the hair, if the razor was previously oiled,how well you stropped, humidity and probably other factors I am missing.
agreed the shave test is the tru test, if you have a thick hair that will pop at 1k then that will make a nub think that he razor is ready when it is not. or vice versa. the best test i do is to take and roll up my jeans and see if i can completly bald a strip of leg with a single pass, if i need to do more than that to smooth it out than its time to go to the barber hone and a touchup. this just works for me im not saying its set in stone. i just dont have enough facial hair to know if its still sharp enough.
One issue with new shavers is that many of them are looking for reasons why they aren't getting a good shave. If someone lacks the experience to gauge a razors sharpness by using it (not a criticism...we've all been there) then relying on a test with as many variables as the HHT can just serve to add more confusion to the process.
We can use me as an example. For whatever the reason, and it doesn't matter what the reason is, I have never done well with the HHT. It just doesn't work well for me. None the less, most of my razors are fully shave ready. If I were to get a poor result from one of my razors, and I relied on the HHT, I would conclude that the razor was dull, which is not the case. I would be off trying to solve a non existent problem instead of figuring out what is really going wrong. For this reason I believe that the HHT, in the hands of a Beginner, causes more problems than it solves.
IMO, for a new guy the best criteria for sharpness is "do I know that this blade was honed by someone who can reliably produce a shave ready result?".
People new to shaving with straight razors read about the HHT and assume that if they cannot pass that "test" their razor is not up to snuff. The HHT is basically an advanced test used following honing and stropping. As others have noted, it is such a variable test, depending on the individual's hair, the razor, and the skill level, that it is just not viable for everyone. IME, and that of others, a razor that passes won't necessarily shave well, while a razor that doesn't pass may shave very well.
So it is not a matter of "fear and trepidation" on the part of more experienced members that brings up posts critical of the HHT. Rather it is the recognition, through that experience, that the test is misleading to the inexperienced, and they should be aware of that before they become impressed with a razor that passes or despondent over one that does not. That is all there is to it really, IMHO.
Can we rename it the HHI, the Hanging Hair Indicator, and describe it as an indicator of relative sharpness? I've never
seen anyone claim that it was an objective test. Certainly there are variations in hair type, thickness, wetness, area from
which harvested, etc. but that doesn't mean that the HHI, as an indicator of where you are in the honing and stropping
process, can't be helpful.
If I'm using a hair and my blade is not quite making it tug on the blade, and I go back and do 30 laps on linen then 60 on
leather and then it starts to tug, even pop, that tells me something that I can use and learn from.
I can tell by using the HHI precisely when my blade is ready to shave. I can do this because I have personalized it. My way
of using the HHI is far more "objective" than any shave test because it involves only one variable, the hair, and that is
a variable I can control. The shave test is just too complex in nature to be as objective as the HHI.
This thread is locked pending a mod review.