First two SE shaves done :(

I got my "kit" from Tony on Friday. Very nice razor and strop! Good price and fast shipping. It is also easier to order a kit, I would recommend this to others starting out. I have been reading lots of info hear and elsewhere, so I figured it would go fairly well.

First off no bleeding that cold water couldn't stop :) Thanks to some of the prep advice here I have been getting a very close shave with my Quattro and can usually get by shaving everyother day for work. I had shaved Thrusday, so the beard was not that long on Friday. I figured it would make it easier to learn.

I had a hard time with the soap, kept drying out. I figured that is partly me, partly the soap (Williams), and me being used to canned stuff. I made sure to keep reapplying though.

The razor just seemed to pull an awfull lot :thinking: Even doing the simple areas such as sides of face. I managed to get my whole face done. It wasn't smooth in most areas, but it took enough off that it looked fine.

I cannot ever remember having razor burn that bad in my life :cry: I didn't apply hardly any pressure, and felt the angle was correct. I suppose my face will have to toughen up a little. I didn't dare go against the grain for a 3rd pass. I tried a few little areas( against the grain) and the razor jumped around and pulled.

I tried again on Sunday, but switched to the quattro 40% of the way through. I didn't want razor burn again :)
I finished up with the soap. When I got done, the shave with my quattro seemed a lot smoother with the soap than with the canned stuff. My face felt softer, smoother, and a little tight. I can't wait to try a better quality soap and see what that does.

I don't think I damaged the edge with my stropping, I was very slow and methodical. Maybe I have a thicker beard and the razor needs to be a little sharper? Or maybe I am not using enough of a cything motion?

I wetted a spot on my leg and the razor shaved it smooth on the first pass. I realize that hair is not as tough though.

Just wanted to share my experience/fustration. I can see there are so many variables when you first start out it is going to be a challenge. I am not giving up, and certainly don't want to discourage anyone else from tyring it. But it should serve as a reminder the just about everything in life looks a lot eaiser then it is.

I am guessing a pasted paddle strop, better soap and more practice might be the ticket. Any words of encourgement/advice are certainly welcome.

I'm fairly new to this too and I'm just now getting a really good shave--it took a couple weeks to get somewhat confident.

The advice I can give is to try varying the angle of the blade. I use something close to the recommended 30 deg. on the sides of my face and neck, but for the chin and moustache I lay the blade almost flat against my skin. I also discovered that the same angle works the best when going against the grain, if I use my normal angle I get a lot of drag and irritation. Anyway, just my $.02--I thought my (new) razor was just dull, but now that I started playing with angles I'm doing pretty well.

if you got it shave ready from tony, why did you strop it? i don't really know much, but i'm wondering if you didn't dull it, careful as you think you may have been. a sharp razor shouldn't leave you with any irritation to speak of unless you really dug in with it or went over the same spot too many times trying to get it smooth (my favorite mistake).

I can't imagine how it could happen as the blade that Tony sent me shaved at least as well as anything I honed. I am guessing your angle is off. When I was teaching my co-worker and mentioned a 30 degree angle, he put it almost perpendicular to the skin. Other problem areas:
1) Prep. Make sure you wash your face well before applying lather. When you remove the oils, the hair will absorb the water. Make sure you give it plenty of time to absorb (120sec).
2) Stretching. If you stretch your skin properly you will make your cuts much easier on you.
3) When shaving with the grain, make sure you know which direction the hair is growing in. Know thyself well and thou shalt achieve laudable shaves, grasshoper!

i disagree with you, firestart, 1,2, and 3 are to blame if a person isn't getting close enough shaves, but i've done all three for one reason or another, and they don't really cause razor burn.

They don't directly cause it, but if your shaves aren't effective, you are more likely to apply more pressure and pressure = burn. Therefore, do not argue with the Zen-Budha Master :nono:


Edit:
Also, when your angle is off, you are more likely to scrape the skin instead of cutting the whiskers and may even throw a few more ineffective passes that will just cause further irritation, a.k.a. razor burn. QED :cool:

yeah, i wasn't arguing about the angle, just the three items you listed. if those things were contributing to the problem, then the real problem was still going too hard or going over it too many times, as i initially suggested.

so, now you see that the student has become the master...

The student will become the master once he realizes that if the first domino doesn't fall, others won't either. The reasons I listed are the main causes of too much pressure and too many passes.

alright, rather than go back and forth about this, let's wait and let the guy who posted first weigh in and see what he thinks. we could be missing the point entirely.

its already been mentioned but blade angle, pressure, and soap slickness are major factors. The blade shouldnt be pulling though. if you have bad angles you would miss hair or cut yourself, and if you use to much pressue you would get bad razor burn and possibly cut yourself, but it still shouldnt pull.

A few things to think about:
1. your face will need to adjust to using a straight, at first most of us had some razor burn and discomfort, especially if you are switching from a disposable to a straight, and not going to a DE in between. Keep in mind this is really the first time a real blade has ever touched your face.

2. I was very careful when I was stropping one of my first razors and I still managed to dull the edge accidentally. If the blade is actually pulling this could be a possibility as much as I know you would hate to admit it.

3. If you have pulling from a dull blade you WILL have razor burn, especially if you have sensitie skin.

4. technique, technique, technique. When I first started with a Lynn honed razor, I had razor burn after my shave, mostly from using to much pressure. I then worked on lowering the presure and also found an aftershave regiment that worked well for me, and now that same razor gives a very comfortable shave, so it really wasnt the razor at all.

5. If you can get a straight razor shave from a barbershop, even if they use a feather or DE blade, and notice that it feels more like a massage than a shave simply because the blade is barely touching your face. I still have not achieved this amount of skill, and still have to remind myself that I using to much pressure on certain spots, or that I need to use a different angle on my neck and chin than I do on my cheeks. Its an art, and if you were a pro over night it would be a pretty boring experience when all said and done. This is why the true great shavers and honemeisters (of which I am neither) have so much pride in their shaves and sharp blades.

Sec & Cyrano, take note. These gentlemen know what they're talking about. Remove any one of the afformentioned priorities, add no extra pressure with the blade and your face wont feel nice.

X

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

i disagree with you, firestart, 1,2, and 3 are to blame if a person isn't getting close enough shaves, but i've done all three for one reason or another, and they don't really cause razor burn.

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okay. i'm quoting myself because, obviously, i want to be really really clear, and i want to do it with all proper deference to those who've helped me start SE shaving. having said that, x, i have removed all the aforementioned priorities without incurring razor burn.

everyone just sees that i have only 135 posts and assumes that the guy with 1300 posts is right. granted, i've only been doing this for two months, but i think that's enough time accumulate valid experience, and what i'm saying is this:

everyone seems to be overlooking the possibility that he's working with a dull razor. firestart presented three rules which were intended to prevent razor irritation. i disagree--i have, at one time or another (with a sharp razor), neglected to

1 prepare and lather properly--no irritation

2 stretch the skin--no irritation

3 follow the grain exactly--still no irritation

conversely, i've done all three of these things almost to the letter (with a dull razor), and gotten bad razor burn.
my conclusion: these three things are neither necessary, nor suffcient to prevent razor burn. the blade must be sharp.

i understand that these things will make the difference between a good shave and a great shave, and also that many of you may have had different experiences. but as long as one person (me) has had the experience i'm describing above, it is adequate proof (by counter example) that the statement, "items 1, 2, and 3 are necessary and sufficient conditions to prevent razor burn," is not true.

it is my assertion, then, that sec's real concern should be the sharpness of the blade. in my experience, shaving technique was not difficult at all to acquire. the day i got my shave-ready (about a week after i started) i got a great, close, irritation-free shave. the real challenge has been sharpening and maintenance of the blade. for this reason, when someone assumes a beginner is having trouble because of the thing that (in my experience) was very simple to learn and not the thing that was (in my experience) very difficult, i feel obligated to offer a dissenting opinion. when firestart correctly (in my opinion) pointed out that the angle and pressure might be to blame, he should have stopped there, because the three reasons that followed are not causally linked to bad angle and pressure, as my experience has shown, and despite his otherwise clever domino analogy.

in mathematics and logic, all that is required to disprove a theorem is ONE counterexample. if i've understood firestart's assertion--that 1,2, and 3 will prevent razor burn--and if you believe that i am not lying about my experience, the logic is solid. there isn't any room to argue. so when people dismiss careful thought with platitudes, i am inexplicably compelled to spend an hour in front of my computer arguing about shaving with folks halfway across the world.

please don't take it as hostility, i love the forum and everyone here has been great and generous, and i hope that i've contributed, too. i try to pass on as much as has been passed on to me and to do so in the same spirit. i make this argument in the spirit of dialectic. it seems that the more individual experiences we consider, the more accurate our knowledge will be. i'm throwing a few smileys in here at the end to show that this isn't anything but a light-hearted exercise in logic. :D :D :D :D

[QUOTE=JLStorm]
2. I was very careful when I was stropping one of my first razors and I still managed to dull the edge accidentally. If the blade is actually pulling this could be a possibility as much as I know you would hate to admit it.

3. If you have pulling from a dull blade you WILL have razor burn, especially if you have sensitie skin.

[QUOTE]

Cyrano I see where you are coming from, and I agree if there is pulling its because of a dull razor, but you have to remember during the first few shaves its pretty hard to figure out exactly what is happening because so many feelings are so new. Is it the razor pulling, is it to much friction, is it the angle. It is even harder to diagnose the problem since sec really is just making guesses, as are we. The more feedback he gets the better.

I just remember when I started shaving I REALLY had trouble admitting to myself that my blade might not be sharp enough...it feels like personal defeat sometimes, especially if the user dulls the blade.

Sec, hang in there, and really if you FEEL that hairs are being pulled and not cut, it may be worth having the edge refreshed. When hairs are being pulled by a dull razor the closest way I can describe the feeling is trying to shave with a crappy electric razor. I hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by JLStorm

...The more feedback he gets the better...

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that's exactly my point. i think my experience was being dismissed because i haven't been here as long, and i believe that's a mistake. also, i guess i should say i wasn't really directing this at you, since you seem to agree, in part, with what i'm saying, or at least that you allow my explanation is possible.

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

that's exactly my point. i think my experience was being dismissed because i haven't been here as long, and i believe that's a mistake. also, i guess i should say i wasn't really directing this at you, since you seem to agree, in part, with what i'm saying, or at least that you allow my explanation is possible.

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I dont mean to disregard your feelings, but I have generally found that this is not the case. We have had a number of people who have been straight razor shaving for years and years recently join. Just because someone is new doesnt necessarily mean that they are not experienced, or havent had the same problem that is being discussed in a particular thread.

At any rate, I am sorry you felt as if your comments were being disregarded, and I am sure that it was not intentional, thats just not our way here at SRP. ;)

Wow, thanks for all the great advice! I thought I was going to start WWIII for a minute there :)

I didn't strop the razor for the first half of my first shave. I did this because I learned from other here that have goobered up their blades by stropping incorrectly. I did strop for the second half of the face and it did work a little better. So I don't think I have done too much damage by my stropping but it is not out of the question.

As far as the angle I was very careful to lay the blade on my face and the raise the spine to roughly two spine withs. So I believe the angle was in the right ballpark.

I will payattention to everything that has been mentioned and give it another go tomorrow.

I am guilty of going over the same spots multiple times to get a closer shave. Of course the skin had little or no moisture so this no doubt contributed to my irritation. I will try to break this habbit and see if that helps.

Tony Miller offered to have me send it back for another trip on the hone, on his dime no less. That is outstanding customer service for sure. I advised him I may take him up on the offer but will try it a few more times before I send it in.

For those of you with applicable experience should I get a 4 sided strop with paste, or a 4K/8K hone first. I figured with the razor already being honed by Tony a strop would be better and eiser to learn before getting the hone, but I would like to hear what other think.

Thanks a bunch!

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Originally Posted by Sec162

Wow, thanks for all the great advice! I thought I was going to start WWIII for a minute there :)

I didn't strop the razor for the first half of my first shave. I did this because I learned from other here that have goobered up their blades by stropping incorrectly. I did strop for the second half of the face and it did work a little better. So I don't think I have done too much damage by my stropping but it is not out of the question.

As far as the angle I was very careful to lay the blade on my face and the raise the spine to roughly two spine withs. So I believe the angle was in the right ballpark.

I will payattention to everything that has been mentioned and give it another go tomorrow.

I am guilty of going over the same spots multiple times to get a closer shave. Of course the skin had little or no moisture so this no doubt contributed to my irritation. I will try to break this habbit and see if that helps.

Tony Miller offered to have me send it back for another trip on the hone, on his dime no less. That is outstanding customer service for sure. I advised him I may take him up on the offer but will try it a few more times before I send it in.

For those of you with applicable experience should I get a 4 sided strop with paste, or a 4K/8K hone first. I figured with the razor already being honed by Tony a strop would be better and eiser to learn before getting the hone, but I would like to hear what other think.

Thanks a bunch!

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well, wwIII aside, i still think that somehow the blade got dulled. it could have been caused by anything from the time the package left tony's hands to the time you put the blade to your face.

just to let you know, i often go over the same spot several times to get it close, and with a sharp razor, i still don't get any real serious irritation. how about pressure? is it possible you were pushing against the skin? because zero pressure is optimal.

as far as the hone goes, i'm going to be the black sheep again, and suggest the norton instead of the pasted strop. the strop would be easier, it's true, but you'll have to learn to use the norton eventually, and you can do everything you need to keep a razor sharp with that alone.

Cyrano, I am not dismissing you for being new. Actually you probably have more wet shaving experience than me. However, based on my own experience and experience I observed in other people I interacted with, I came across several peculiarities specific to SE-shaving...
I am not saying that you are 100% wrong, and in all honesty I got into it with you more for my love of a good argument, which many members here will atest to.
Right now, we are in the middle of a trouble-shooting process. The first step was to eliminate what I could right off the bat:
1) I know that Tony's honing produces keen edges (according to my face), and decided to trust Sec's stropping (for now) as he was making an obvious effort to be careful with his stropping.
Therefore, I started looking for factors that would reduce the effectiveness of a sharp blade. The obvious ones were:
1) If the hair does not absorb enough water, it will be more difficult to cut with a wet-shaving implement.
2) If you do not stretch the skin, the hairs won't be as exposed as they should be and that also reduces the effectiveness.
3) Not knowing your facial hair geometry will also reduce the effectiveness of your cuts.
So we had 4 reasons for a lack of efficiency of the shave. One was quarantined, so we were left with 3 reasons why he would not be cutting the hair the way he is supposed to. When there is a lack of effectiveness, we have a natural tendency to apply more pressure and/or increase the number of passes. Both of these measures increase the irritation factor and create the burn.
Now you may not have experienced irritation from a greater number of passes, but you cannot tell me that moving a sharp blade over your skin-cells won't remove a few of them. If you remove enough of them, you will cause irritation. This can be aggravated by increased pressure because of a bad shaving technique from lather to blade-angles/movement.
Yes, a dull blade can cause a reduction of efficiency, but I thought it to be a less likely factor based on my personal experience with Tony's blades. Had it been a blade honed by Sec, I would have been more inclined to suspect the quality of the edge.
Finally, we do agree on something. I have also been getting great results without using pasted paddle strops and I love the lack of dependency on others' honing services. I may get one eventually to make my touchups easier and to get an even keener edge. However, N4/8k should be enough for close, comfortable shaves.

One test for whether your straight is sharp enough is to try one that's machine-honed. Feather ACs are pretty expensive, but Fromm hair shapers are available from any beauty supply store, and they're decent enough. I keep one in my travel Dopp kit, and I can get a comfortable, close shave in five minutes using it and just a few splashes of water on my face. Not as good as with real prep, but only the people who touch my face (none other than me, when I travel) can tell.

Anyway... a disposable Fromm blade is pretty reliable. See how you do with that. If you hate it, you're out $7. If you like it, great. In any case, it provides a comparison.

i think we're on the same page now. let me just say for the record, and people can take it up if they like, that in my experience, poor technique, or lack of diligence to those three items we've all been referring to, leads to two things:

with a sharp blade: cuts.

with a dull blade: a non-smooth, non-close shave, which could, but not necessarily must, lead to irritation.

that was why i said what i said. i figured, even if we trust his honing, the blade was somehow dulled. from what everyone says, the guy who honed it is some kind of demigod or something, so i don't doubt it was ever sharp at all, just that something has happened (probably just some kind of wierd fluke) and resulted in sec shaving with a dull edge.

just a bit of speculation, but since tony's edges are SO sharp, doesn't that mean they are actually thinner, more delicate edges that would be easier to kill with shoddy handling or technique?

Based on the buzz generated here, I don't know if I'd put Tony M in the same range as Randy Tuttle or Lynn, however I got one pre-honed blade from him and it's a superb shaver, as good as anything I've honed and better than a couple of pieces in my rotation. He also packages them carefully, so I eliminated shipping as a factor. Yes, there is a possibility of a stropping slip-up, but Sec didn't think it too likely, so I focused on the other aspects.
I am sorry if I sounded like I didn't respect your knowledge. That grasshopper-crap was more of a joke. I try to tone down my "sense of humor" as my close friends and I can get fairly extreme, but sometimes it just shines through. Even people who have forgotten more than you and I combined will ever know have a lot to learn, so I do not want to make it appear that just because I have more experience (or even worse, more posts) means that you do not have anything to offer here. Far from it, your analysis is most welcome here and even our arguments may help someone learn about the complexities of SE shaving.

Without getting involved in the back and forth over causes of the original poster's difficulty, let me reiterate the incredible value of being shaved by a professional barber (who knows what he's doing). I was doing pretty much 90% of everything right before I had a real shave and having a lot of pain, but the last 10% made all the difference. Biggest lessons for me?

1. He showed me how to hold the razor and demonstrated several different forward/backhand grips. That was HUGE, because until then, I wasn't properly exploiting the balance engineered into the blade/scale combination, and it's the balance that allows you to shave without any pressure.

2. I watched how he shaved my chin (until them my most difficult part) by scraping at it lightly at a nearly perpindicular angle. I would have never done this myself for fear of cutting my chin off, but as it turns out, on MY face, at least, this is how to clean it off, irritation free.

3. His relaxed and easy strokes made me realize that I was shaving with too much tension, and that was killing me.

4. He verified that my prep was correct by using the exact same products I use (the shave was at the Art of Shaving), and I figured out that I didn't need to soak my face in hot water as long as I had been. This cut down my prep time and made it possible for me to shave with a straight razor every day instead of just on weekends, and as they say, practice makes perfect.

Good luck, it's worth it!

I have gotten a few razors honed by Lynn, so I know what sharp is, but one of the razors he honed for me came and it was really pulling. Neither of us is sure what happened, weather it got damaged in shipping or what, but when I sent it back to him he noticed some issues and had to really work and honing them out.

So just because it has been honed by a honemeister, like a few people have said, it still could have gotten dulled before it reached you.

I would love to get a SE shave from a pro, but I don't think we have any in the area. I asked the Barber I go to and she did produce some sort of SE with disposable blades, then commented on how she has not used it in years. So I figured that would not be a good idea. We have a few small shops in town, but they are mostly gearded towards women. Figured next time I get to Milwaukee or Chicago I would see what I can find.

I will consider getting a Fromm of something like that, that was a good suggestion.

I used the SE again this evening. I even did better prep and put many many layers of soap on my face. I had better results, but still a lot of razor burn. I also have a 2inch line across my left cheek :) Not enough to bleed, but there is a line there. The rest of the face was fine, only very minor nicks (same kind I get from time to time with a disposable). I got a little better shave on the sides of my face and under by nose, but the chin was still pretty bad and some spots under my chin. Still a lot of pulling though. I finished up with the quattro.

Maybe this will help as a sharpness gauge?? Forget the HHT it will not pass that. However, try this with some of your "sharp" blades and see what happens. I take a chest hair (dry, no soap) and pull it tight. Then set your blade on the hair. When I do this it does not cut the hair. If I start to put pressure then it will pop it. Or if I move the blade across the hair it will cut. I thought with the weight of the blade (6/8 Dovo) that it would immediatly cut the hair?? I realize everyones hair is different, but I thought that might help me determine if it just not quite sharp enough. Oh and the edge looks very good, and if I run it across my wet thumbnail it glides right across it, no jumping or anything. FYI

Im considering switching back to canned shave cream until I get better soap, or till I get better at just shaving. I am having zero luck with the williams. It dries out super fast no matter how I mix it. It also seems to dry out my face real bad.

i'm pretty sure running the blade across your thumbnail is enough to knock down the edge. when i got my phone-honing tutorial from our resident phone guru, he said not to do that after the initial passes because it would ruin the edge. so, once i got it to draw evenly, i abandoned it and started the pyramid.

I find the thumbnail test (which is done with a water wet nail BTW) is only good for testing to see if there are nicks or wires or similar unsuitable features to the edge. It can detect a decent edge, but that's just the absence of problems. That's just me though. Then I go to the hones and proceed using the thumb test (which also works a little better with a slightly wet thumb pad) and after that, the hanging hair test after the 4k/8k/ pyramid. If all goes well then it's time for the real test, the shave.

X

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Originally Posted by Sec162

Im considering switching back to canned shave cream until I get better soap, or till I get better at just shaving. I am having zero luck with the williams. It dries out super fast no matter how I mix it. It also seems to dry out my face real bad.

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it does dry faster. try using more water and you should be a little better off. can i recommend the classicshaving.com soap? that's what i started out with and i had good luck with it, plus you won't be spending 30 bucks or whatever on fancy stuff. i don't mind using the williams now--i like how it smells--but it took a little time to figure out just how to use soap in a way that suited my needs. i guess it's fine, just not a good starter soap. also, colleen makes a FANTASTIC smelling coconut soap (what i use now), for about the same price, and you'll have it a few days after you order. she's wicked fast with the shipping. it's silly how fast she is.

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I take a chest hair (dry, no soap) and pull it tight. Then set your blade on the hair. When I do this it does not cut the hair.

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Okay, stop right there. Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like a dull razor. Dull dull dull dull dull. If my current shaving razor gets anywhere near a chest, arm, leg, head, or beard hair, the hair pops in half. The thicker the hair, the easier it is to pop. If you have to saw anything to get it to break, the razor is dull. I have shaved with a razor like this (see my earlier post, "can't get sharp enough" in the newbie forum) for 6 months and couldn't get the hang of it. Then I got a professionally sharpened one, and all is well.

I sent my razor back to get touched up. I used it the first time a few days ago and noticed a difference right away. There is resistance there but it did not pull like before. That time I just did one pass and finished with the quattro.

This morning I did my whole face and didn't even need to break out the quattro :)

I forced myself to use the left hand as well and the results were much better. In fact some parts of my face that I did with the left were better than the right :confused: I basically did two passes, with a few extras on the chin. It did not get as close as the quattro but its getting there. Appearance wise it looks great, just a little rough to the touch in a few spots. There are a few spots that are BBS but not many. I have a little razor burn, but not bad at all considering I don't have any aftershave yet.

So if you are having problems keep at it, I can see it takes some time to develop skill, and a sharp razor helps also :)

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Originally Posted by Sec162

In fact some parts of my face that I did with the left were better than the right :confused:

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You're not the only one to notice this, and it is a mystery that's for sure. I'm also much more likely to nick myself with my strong hand than my off hand.