I need some help, please.

So I've done my research, I've read pages and pages about shaving with a straight razor, how to strop, how to hone, etc. I have sharpened knives for years, and can get very good edges, but I've never tried honing something as fine as a straight razor.

I watched god knows how many videos on youtube, so when I ordered myself a factory Dovo Best Quality, I knew I'd probably have to hone it. I got the razor along with a brand new Norton 4000/8000 grit stone and a Jemico strop.

The razor showed up today, I tried the hanging hair test, which it did not pass. So I soaked the stone for 15 minutes and went to honing.

For the life of me, I cannot get the razor to pass the hanging hair test. The best I can get (and only sometimes) is for the razor to snag the hair and split it lengthwise.

I went very slowly, was very careful, put minimum pressure on the blade and made slow, deliberate strokes.

In my final attempt, I gave the razor 50 strokes on the 4000 grit, followed by 50 strokes on the 8000 grit, and finished with 20 passes on the strop. I managed to get it to cut one out of 5 hairs, but that took some fanagling and was probably a fluke.

I have absolutely no idea what I could possibly be doing wrong... and I feel like an idiot, to be honest. I've maintained blades for years, just not one this fine, and apparently the technique is completely eluding me.

at first you shouldn't feel bad.
Razor honing is a new game and every single of us have learning curve.
100 strokes on norton 8k is way too much for your razor.
if you have done proper honing before 8k i would say between 15-35 strokes will be good enough on 8k.
Remember your blade has soft steel and shouldn't last more then 20 minutes max from scratch to finish the honing.
try less pressure and hone it again. see what happens.
if you steel have issues post the pics we can be more helpful in that case.
have patience.
Sorry welcome to SRP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MilesVeritatis

So I've done my research, I've read pages and pages about shaving with a straight razor, how to strop, how to hone, etc. I have sharpened knives for years, and can get very good edges, but I've never tried honing something as fine as a straight razor.

I watched god knows how many videos on youtube, so when I ordered myself a factory Dovo Best Quality, I knew I'd probably have to hone it. I got the razor along with a brand new Norton 4000/8000 grit stone and a Jemico strop.

The razor showed up today, I tried the hanging hair test, which it did not pass. So I soaked the stone for 15 minutes and went to honing.

For the life of me, I cannot get the razor to pass the hanging hair test. The best I can get (and only sometimes) is for the razor to snag the hair and split it lengthwise.

I went very slowly, was very careful, put minimum pressure on the blade and made slow, deliberate strokes.

In my final attempt, I gave the razor 50 strokes on the 4000 grit, followed by 50 strokes on the 8000 grit, and finished with 20 passes on the strop. I managed to get it to cut one out of 5 hairs, but that took some fanagling and was probably a fluke.

I have absolutely no idea what I could possibly be doing wrong... and I feel like an idiot, to be honest. I've maintained blades for years, just not one this fine, and apparently the technique is completely eluding me.

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Don't get hung up on the HHT, some of my razors can't pass that "test" at all with my hair, yet they shaves like a dream.
Try shaving, that's the only real test worth doing ;)


Also, having a razor professionally honed is a super helpful benchmark, which is a must when you're new IMO.
I'm brand new to this as well and did my first few shaves with a "known good" razor, and now that I'm a week into honing I know what to strive for, and so far I've been doing pretty good. The last 4-5 shaves is off razors I honed myself, feels awesome!

I'm actually surprised you didn't even try to shave with it. The problem with the HHT is hair. It's all different. There's no consistency. At the Dovo factory, and you can watch this on youtube, Your razor cut a hair before it was shipped...Yup, it did..It was probably a badger hair or boar. The point is, they use the same exact type of hair each and every time. That way you have a bench mark. As previously mentioned, don't get hung up the hair test.
Shave....

Check your Norton stone for flatness. Don't be surprised to find that it is a ways from ready-to-hone-with condition. If you bought the flattening stone with your Norton, use it. If not, go to the sandpaper on a sheet of glass technique. I found out about the Nortons the hard way then spent about 2 hours flattening my 2 stones. You have a little work to do before you shave, my friend. Good luck and good shaving.

The subjectivity of the HHT is a problem, but so is the meaning of "passing" it. I have had blades that were not able to "pop" a hair on the HHT but were able to get themselves "snagged" on it...........and they shaved just fine. Remember that a passing grade in school was 70%, not perfection.

I did try to shave with the razor... I didn't cut myself or get razor burn because it barely even scratched the hair on my face. I ended up making my first pass with a Mach 3, then trying the straight on the second pass, at which point it did nothing.

I went back to the hone and tried 15 strokes on the 4000 and 15 strokes on the 8000, it still wont pass the HHT with hair from either my badger brush or my head.

Since there's no hair left on my face, I moistened the back of my hand and made a couple of passes, and the razor took off the hair effortlessly. I'm hoping that's a good sign, I'll try a shave with it tomorrow once some stubble has grown out and let you guys know.

Thanks for the tips and for making me feel welcome!

What angle are you holding the razor to your face? If you're holding it too flat on a with the grain stroke it could ride more on the spine and never get the edge to an actual cutting position against the hair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MilesVeritatis

I did try to shave with the razor... I didn't cut myself or get razor burn because it barely even scratched the hair on my face. I ended up making my first pass with a Mach 3, then trying the straight on the second pass, at which point it did nothing.

I went back to the hone and tried 15 strokes on the 4000 and 15 strokes on the 8000, it still wont pass the HHT with hair from either my badger brush or my head.


Since there's no hair left on my face, I moistened the back of my hand and made a couple of passes, and the razor took off the hair effortlessly. I'm hoping that's a good sign, I'll try a shave with it tomorrow once some stubble has grown out and let you guys know.

Thanks for the tips and for making me feel welcome!

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I think'd angle too. Honing and Honing is not the answer, believe me. This whole hobby takes patience, and practice, lot's and lot's of practice, Shaving and especially honing. I could sharpen the hell out of knives before I started using straight razors. Straight Razors are a whole different story, it's like an art. No doubt you'll get the hang of it, but with a new blade, I'd suggest getting it honed by a pro, then you have a bench mark. You eliminate the razor as part of the problem, then work on your technique...

Welcome to the site!

You have gotten a lot of great info.
As you noticed (and zib stated) razors are a different animal from most other blades. A very well known knife maker started making razors a while back. He had to relearn honing when he started making razors. What makes this interesting is that I have shaved with his knives before.

Some of the best razor honers in the world cannot hone a knife.

Welcome to Straight Razor Place...Patience is the key...Don't beat yourself up.....Your struggle is part of the learning curve.....Stay with it !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MilesVeritatis

....snip...
I went back to the hone and tried 15 strokes on the 4000 and 15 strokes on the 8000, it still wont pass the HHT with hair from either my badger brush or my head.
....snip...

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The 4K/8K hone responds well to the
pyramid method.
Pyramid honing guide - Straight Razor Place Wiki

It is as close to a formula as you are likely to find.
It works.

Also: It can be repeated if after stropping
and a shave test the edge needs more work.

It expect that the bevel is set with a 1k hone!
Yet the time spend on the 4k side will eventually improve
a bevel that is almost set.
The pyramid method is a workhorse technique
that works well with the 4k/8k workhorse hone.

The hanging hair test is a pain in the you know what...
It does help to you a wild hair to explore the length
of the edge to look for 'differences'. A hair skates on
dull and sticks a little to enough to get sliced on sharp
depending on the hair.

The direction of the hair can matter. Hair has a top
and a bottom direction. Shampoo and conditioner
matter. Oil on a blade will also negate the HHT.
Since most honemasters lightly oil a blade when
done it is important to know that that protective oil
will kill the HHT. This is why it is such a hated
and maligned test in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

The 4K/8K hone responds well to the
pyramid method.
Pyramid honing guide - Straight Razor Place Wiki

It is as close to a formula as you are likely to find.
It works.

Also: It can be repeated if after stropping
and a shave test the edge needs more work.

It expect that the bevel is set with a 1k hone!
Yet the time spend on the 4k side will eventually improve
a bevel that is almost set.
The pyramid method is a workhorse technique
that works well with the 4k/8k workhorse hone.

The hanging hair test is a pain in the you know what...
It does help to you a wild hair to explore the length
of the edge to look for 'differences'. A hair skates on
dull and sticks a little to enough to get sliced on sharp
depending on the hair.

The direction of the hair can matter. Hair has a top
and a bottom direction. Shampoo and conditioner
matter. Oil on a blade will also negate the HHT.
Since most honemasters lightly oil a blade when
done it is important to know that that protective oil
will kill the HHT. This is why it is such a hated
and maligned test in my opinion.

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He is exactly correct.. I had the same problem when I first stated doing my own honing... and then eventually went to the pyramid..

Also that many strokes on your stone you might be causing a wire edge and not even knowing it, I was doing the exact same thing and then when put under a loop I finally saw it... AAAANNNNNDDDD Norton stone that are new have a coating on them.. You really wont know it unless you flatten them.. Before you do ANYTHING else make sure you flatten your stones.. it will take a while if yours has the coating on them.. especially the 8k.. it will take the longest.. The pyramid prevents a wire edge (or at least helps to prevent it)...

Well, I tried a shave today, made two passes and did nothing but scrape the crap out of my face. No razor burn that I can tell, but dang was it uncomfortable. No hair was removed at all.

I'm soaking my Norton stone currently, then I'm gonna give it a good rub down with my Nagura stone. Once I do that, I'm going to try the pyramid method you guys suggested. Will let you know.

If this doesn't work, I'm just gonna send my razor off to Straight Razor Designs for honing.


EDIT: Carefully went through the pyramid, not one iota of change. Cut myself. Gonna let a professional do this.

As stated above, at this point the HHT is absolutely worthless and meaningless to you. Get a properly honed blade, shave with it to demonstrate that it is a good shaving edge. THEN, try the HHT. Use multiple hair, and apply the test up and down the blade. Note how the hair acts. Maybe, it slices the hair (as you described), or cuts it cleanly, or just vibrates the hair violently. Whatever it does, however it acts, for that hair, that is a successful test.

Cutting hair... meaningless in and of itself.

none of my razors pass the HHT. pretty sure my hair is made from the same stuff that Wolverines claws are made of.
But my razors shave my face really well, which is the only test I care about.

If you are honing for yourself, then it is somewhat true that the shave test is the only test that counts. If you are honing for others, then the shave test is not the only test that counts, and itself is not sufficient. For, a good shaving blade, with your use of portions of the blade, might have a dull tip and heel region for example.

I encourage you to continue using the HHT. Just be ready for the not inconsequential effort required to make it useful.

I to had a horrible time getting the hang of honing a razor. I spent so many hours trying and retrying but never could get a sharp razor in the end. Had 3 people sit with me and watch/teach and still poor success. Then I was watching one of Glen's videos and he mentioned the word Torque while honing a razor, not a "Hey Dumby you need to apply Torque" but more a passing comment. The light went on in my head and off to the stones I went. A razor I had issues with and was worried was soon going to be honed into a letter opener had a bevel set in less than 10 minutes. 2nd razor, same result, 3rd razor same thing. So I did some searching on here and sure enough it had been talked about at length.

Here is a snip from another thread where Glen mentions the Torque in more detail

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

There is a theory, if you look way back in the honing forum about "Torque on the Edge" You will find Randydance and I discussing it

Basically the short version is when you hone, you should be applying a tiny bit of torque toward the edge rather than the spine...
The more you hone the better you get, the better you get, the more all this becomes automatic...

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Not sure if this will be the answer for you or not, but thinking about how you need to maintain angle while sharpening a knife (no spine to help) this creates that Torque for you. Razor on the other hand without the torque action your honing the spine more than the edge.

Well stated Blix. I am not in the honing stage as of yet, but I would get wrapped around the axel when my razor would "fail" the HHT after stropping. But after str8 shaving for three months, I learned all that matters is the shave test. No more HHT is one less monkey on my back.

MV,

You never mentioned if you lapped your stones. Did you lap (flatten) them before your bouts with honing? It's important to have all the sections of the hone hit all the parts of the bevel uniformly.

I hone my own razors and started thinking that because I've been sharpening knives and woodworking tools for about 50 years that it was a gimme. It isn't. Be patient and follow the advice of the honesters, gurus, and honemeisters. They've been through the learning curves and their advice is well worth heeding.

good luck, good shaving

From what I have been able to understand from my short time on this site, the HHT is only an indication that the bevel is set and that the shave test is the one that matters.
At least that's what I got from Glens videos.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
BTW welcome to SRP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Havachat45

From what I have been able to understand from my short time on this site, the HHT is only an indication that the bevel is set and that the shave test is the one that matters.
At least that's what I got from Glens videos.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
BTW welcome to SRP

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I am by no means an expert for I have been str8 razor shaving 3 months. From my readings in this forum, the best test is the shave test (I could be mistaken, but it's from what I have read here in the forum). I read from other members where their razor would not "pass" the HHT, but they would have a great shave. By the way, I haven't ventured into honing yet, I am debating on doing my own honing or sending my razor to Lynn Abrams the Honemeister and pay him to do it. Having said that, I plan to get a second str8 so if one is out getting rehoned, I have one to use. Or I may get a deal on an used razor and not pay a lot for it and use that to practice honing. Right now I am focusing on my shaving and my stropping techniques.

I have used my GD to practice honing on and I seem to be getting better at it.
In the long run who cares if I stuff up a $3.99 razor?

We need to be explicit when talking about HHT success or failure. For the HHT does not necessarily mean that the blade cuts hair. It might, or it might not.

Imagine you were working in a factory filling plastic bags with nails, and were given the job to weigh nails dumped in a bin prior to dumping the nails in a bag. The scale on the weighing instrument has 10 graduated marks. You are told, "when the scale reads 7, the proper amount of nails are in the bin." But, what does "7" mean? Pounds, ounces, or some other weight measurement? Maybe, the "7" is measuring volume instead of weight?

What 7 means doesn't matter. "7" is the right "whatever", and that is what should be placed in the bag.

Similarly, with a straight razor that is truly, beyond doubt shave ready, when you apply the HHT it matters not in the least whether hair is cut, shaved, vibrated, or whatever behavior is exhibited. Whatever the behavior is for that hair when applied to a shave ready blade, that behavior constitutes successfully passing the HHT.

For some hair, passing the HHT means the hair is split the instant the blade contacts. For other hair, it might only vibrate the hair tip.

I will go further in saying that I believe that when properly understood and applied, the HHT is better than the shave test in some aspects. Especially in the ability to test every increment of the razor.